Liberty75

Verified Tanker [NA]
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Everything posted by Liberty75

  1. I wasn't offended. I just didn't want to offend you. I can understand your preference for all the same tier battles. They are fun sometimes. I just wouldn't like them all the time. My wife is going to kill you, then me for diverting my attention to another hour of "her" time with forum posts. 6/6/3 vs. 4/6/5 is close. I get your point. The old MM did create mismatches in tiers and classes due to the weight system it employed and believe me, I am not celebrating it. It had its own issues. Those issues could have been addressed by WG though, but instead they went with a whole new untested system of strict templates (one of the reasons I am suspicious of their motives). When WG praises the new system, all I have to do is remember that they used to praise the old system as well, then trashed it. So their enthusiasm about the success and benefits of any system is suspect at this point. They are selling something and are not to be trusted. While the difference in some game mechanics can be subjective, the MM doesn't exactly fit into that hole completely. The current MM is bland and repetitive compared to the previous system. That is measurable. Players might not consciously admit to this, but it is a factor nevertheless. Chances are most players won't notice anything overtly. They will just tire of the game and move on. The younger and more intelligent players will be affected by this the most as their minds crave a challenge and they get bored more easily than the rest of us. How that hurts the overall population in the short term, I don't know. Over the long term, me and the other average intelligence players will also be affected by this. This game plays best when it is fun, includes a certain amount of unpredictability, it is challenging, and it is perceived to be fair. Perhaps I missed something, but I think those are the main ingredients for success. The old MM covered the first three items very well. Players at most skill levels had the opportunity for fun at top tier. The team setups and placement of top, middle, and bottom tier were unpredictable. In the +2/-2 system players were challenged at bottom and middle tier. The perception of fairness was lacking, whether or not it actually was (it most likely was over extended games). The new MM includes the challenge aspect and the perception of fairness (perhaps unfairly), but it lacks unpredictability and fun. Had they tweaked the former system with some of the balancing features that they introduced in the current system, it would have been an overall winner for most, if not all, players. Note about defining top tier. I remember being in a battle with only one tier 10 and a few tier 9s. I was in an 8. It was something like this: 1/3/11. Everyone on both teams knew the tier 10 was top tier. It only takes one tank to fill that slot to create that perception. WG has trained us well. Tanks of higher tiers also have more obvious advantages on average. So in a 1/14/0 situation, most players recognize the superiority of the top tier tank. Now in a 1/14/0 match, there is a top tier tank, but the other tanks also recognize it is only one and it isn't a big deal. That was the beauty of the old MM, the teams were always varied. One match you would be bottom tier, but in a group of 9 tanks, so it wasn't that bad and you could play more aggressively. Later in the evening you had a bottom tier match that was 6/5/4 and you knew you had to be more cautious and play a support role. The variety was great and sadly it seems to be lost now. About the reason for 3 tanks having too much of an influence... If those 3 tanks are not distributed well, 3 good players vs. 3 bad players, then the 3 good players at top tier have an advantage. My friends focused on this aspect of the new MM back in May and June. It was every battle where the top tier tanks were noticeably better on one team than the other, that team won. It didn't matter what the skill level was beneath them. No one wants to make 10 tanks top tier to fix this, but as you add in tanks to the top tier, the chances increase that the top tier tanks on both teams will come closer to the mean of the player base logged into the game. Going to 4, 5, or 6 increases the odds of getting more even teams at the top. It isn't guaranteed, it is just more likely. I'd write more, but I need to go practice soccer with my son. If there is something you want me to hit on that I missed in your last post, just copy and paste it into a reply. Take care Hussars!
  2. Ever since I started researching and comparing the previous MM with the current MM, it seems more and more obvious that strict templates, like our current 3/5/7, 5/10, and all the same tier matches, need to be removed. I have campaigned hard in the NA forums, posted an article here in the early stages of my efforts, and recently spent time on the EU forums. My foreign language skills are non-existent so I am unable to communicate on the RU and SEA platforms. Aside from replying to posts and the occasional fact check on people when they claim odd things, I think this is the end of the road for the campaign. The only other thing I can think of now is to use google translate and send an actual snail mail letter to the WG HQ. I just fear it would read something like this: "Containers need to be evenly given out at different floors so the game has more options," and they will just scratch their heads. Withstanding that, I can only hope that WG will remove these strict template matches soon and restore a match system that has as much variety and interest as the previous system with a few balancing tweaks. I am still optimistic that they will change it overall. The NA Forums are mixed with players of different opinions, but WG tends to ignore the NA server anyway. Here on the now quiet WotLabs, players seem indifferent to the current MM. I'm guessing that is because this community has a high level of skill and easily adapts to the changes and some may even like that it is easier to farm damage under the current system. But again, I don't know if WG monitors this forum frequently. On the EU forums, there seems to be a super-majority of players that want the MM removed. That is a good sign. They have a population WG respects and I get the feeling that their forum admins have good communication with the parent company and that those sentiments will be passed along. The recent spat of content creators criticizing the MM is also heartening. Before I scale back, I'd like to post the information that I have gathered over the past few months, some charts that go along with it in case anyone wants to use them for their own efforts or information, and some sentiments to tie up any loose ends. When I gathered information about the old MM to compare to the new MM I was a little surprised at how wrong my memory was when it came to bottom tier matches. I could have sworn my bottom tier matches would have been more challenging than what I was looking at in my research under the old system. Since I was only looking at 100 games at first, I figured the sample wasn't big enough and it was skewed. Then as I gathered another 100 games from my own replays, and then 200 more games from my friend, I began to see a pattern and that in fact my memory was wrong. As I contemplated this I then remembered that our memories and perceptions are faulty. We tend to recall outstanding events more than common events. So while I was playing thousands of games, the best or the worst matches were the ones that would stand out the most in my mind. This is probably why so many players are paranoid about being in a small group of bottom tier tanks, when in reality it didn't happen that often. Another thing that became visible to me from doing this research was that we formerly had a cornucopia of different match-ups. In that 400 game sample, there were 114 unique matches. Now that number would be smaller with the new light tank system that we have today, but it would still be much MUCH more than what we have in our current set of three strict templates (3/5/7, etc.). The variety of games and balance of top, middle, and bottom tier matches stands out like a beacon of excitement compared to the drab experience we are left with presently. Once you become conscious of these things, it is hard not to notice them. I was smacked in the face with reality and have cursed myself with this knowledge and I apologize for ruining anyone else's perception of the the game now. That isn't my general intention. My goal is to have this MM changed back to what it was, or something similar to what it was as had been proposed on the NA and EU forums. For anyone that wants this information, here is a link to the google doc where I transferred it. It is a copy of the pertinent information from my excel spreadsheets, and while I am confident that the main part is correct, there could be an error or two at the bottom with the layout of matches. The figures above them are correct, but I am not checking the 400 different matches to make sure I copied every single one correctly. So forgive me if there is an error there. IF there is an error, the chart above the matches is correct and I miscopied the match(s) below it. Please note the difference in top tier matches between me and Macduff48 under the current system. He platoons a lot. For the periods I gathered from myself, I rarely platooned. Together, they give a decent rough average for most players in the game whether they platoon or not. Partial top or bottom tier matches refers to 5/10 matches or +1/-1 matches in the old MM. For a more specific description of the data collection, see "The Case Against the 3/5/7 Match Maker" article. I updated it recently and I hope I converted all the numbers correctly. If something doesn't make sense, please let me know. The impetus for starting this research was to see how many top tier tanks were in matches because players kept telling me the old MM was full of games with enormous amounts of top tier tanks. From there it grew to other things, but you will see the top tier tank emphasis in there. Here are the charts I created with the information to make it easier for people to understand the information. Feel free to copy them for your own use. First, here is a general comparison followed by a more specific comparison of the frequency of Top, Middle, and Bottom tier matches. The "partial bottom" for the old MM was included in the Middle Tier numbers on the first chart. Here are two graphics on top tier tanks in matches overall, and then with the percent that players were bottom tier in that range out of all of their games. Here are some charts that show the amount of bottom tier tanks in the bottom tier matches from the sample studied. The first one is the raw numbers from the 114 bottom tier matches and the second one is the percent of those raw numbers. This last graphic was created to show the drastic decline in variety. Perhaps it isn't as important, but I will include it anyway. Thank you for your patience if you made it this far. No matter which side of the debate you were on, all civil input was appreciated.
  3. Just a word about my writing style: when I rant about the MM, I am not attacking you. I am attacking a poorly thought out game mechanic by WG. You and everyone else here are probably good people and we're just having, what I hope is, a constructive conversation. My tone is my own defect. For me, it isn't just getting more bottom tier tanks to share my misery. It is about a few factors, including getting the same dull format over and over. It isn't exciting. It is predictably dumb and really makes moving up these tiers a real mental grind. Our level in the match does matter too. Being bottom tier, no matter how many tanks are with you, is still bottom tier. Halfway intelligent top tier players farm the hell out of the bottom tier tanks (as they should!). Bottom tiers are easy to penetrate and top tiers can quickly remove these guns from the fight. Just because there are 7 and we are one of them doesn't make it any better. It just ensures that the top and middle tier tanks always have targets. As a bottom tier tank, you're basically food. Just because there is more food at the bottom now doesn't really help the food. It helps the feasters at the top. The ideal situation, with the whole population being considered here, would be to return to a format similar to the previous version, but to include the balancing factors (such as the same amount of tanks per tier, etc.) of the current version. Players would have a more exciting game if they were to move freely and unpredictably between being top, middle, and bottom tier. Each level has its own challenges and play styles. On top of that, team makeup should also be unpredictable (from how many top, middle, and bottom tier tanks are on each team). This also creates another level of excitement for what is otherwise a very repetitive game. IT IS easier to be bottom tier now. The rub is that now we are bottom tier TWICE as many times, so any advantage gained at being bottom tier is lost since you are bottom tier much more now. At best, someone can claim that it is a wash (which it isn't even that). Couple that with a boring strict template system (huge loss in variety!) and this new MM is a failure. As a failure, I mean it wasn't an improvement in the game. It was a net loss.
  4. Sorry, not end of discussion. This new MM brutalizes new players, even in tiers 6 and 7. And most players have an easier time grinding when they are top or middle tier. Do you deny that top and middle tier are better than bottom? Combined with the fact that the old MM gave a good spread of tanks in most bottom tier battles, that left only a small fraction of a player's battles that were challenging. So to avoid 5 or 6 challenging battles out of 100, we get a dull predictable system that sucks the life and variety right out of this game. Great trade-off.
  5. Actually, I go on and on about variety. Bottom tier is just a dull fact. In the old MM you didn't face bad teams most of the time as a bottom tier tank, and the bulk of your games were top and middle tier. I'd say that is much better than 60% of your games being bottom tier now. Face it. The old system gave a good spread of top, middle, and bottom tier matches and a good spread of tanks in those matches. The old system also had much more variety! Something this current system lacks. That isn't bullshit, it is reality.
  6. The most popular tier is broken.The MM is broken. The most expensive tier of premium tanks sold by WG is a mess. There are A LOT of unhappy customers out there. Also, EVERY tier suffers from the same boring strict template system. You might enjoy VERY repetitive gameplay, but there are many players that would rather have more variety.
  7. Over time you see a general trend. I looked at 200 of my own games and also 200 of a friend of mine. He had more top tier games than me and I had more middle tier games than him. There were a few things that remained constant. For both of us, the worst matches we had in those 200 games was being in a group of 3 tanks at the bottom in only 3 games each. There were no single tank or two tank bottom tier games for either of us in those 400 games. Now obviously sooner or later it would happen since someone has to be the single tank. I'd guess that it happened very rarely, but it obviously did happen. Getting a consistent mess like we have now to avoid battles that rarely occurred is a bad deal. Also, my friend was bottom tier 28% of the time and I was bottom tier 29% of the time. Recently a player from the EU posted only his tier 8 matches, and he was bottom tier 25% of the time. The information that has been gathered so far is pretty consistent that players were bottom tier less than 30% of the time and when they were, a great deal of those matches had a decent spread of tanks between top, middle, and bottom. So while some information will be a little different from player to player depending on when they played and what they played, measurable trends are identifiable and measurable. This all started when people kept telling me on the forums how happy they were to not be a single tank at the bottom anymore (essentially parroting WG's marketing). I recalled some bad matches, but these players seemed to be exaggerating so I went to see how bad it actually was. Maybe I was wrong? What I found surprised me. Bottom tier was was even better than I remembered it. I guess our memories play tricks on us. Once I gathered enough information I started to expose my findings. It looks like WG hasn't been completely forthcoming on why they changed the MM, or they just screwed up and are unlikely to admit it.
  8. When I thought the goons who run our governments couldn't surprise me anymore, they even hide shit like this too. Wow! I recall hearing years ago that the EU squashed a study on second hand smoke because it went against the narrative that it was bad for you. In other words, the study showed that it wasn't bad for you. Thanks for sharing this.
  9. WG can sue them since they patented this idea years ago.
  10. I mistook the tone of your response and I was reacting to it. My apologies. Perhaps we can both learn to communicate more diplomatically in the future. As for the main topic, MM differences, the positive changes that were made to the current MM could have been implemented in the old system while retaining most of the positive aspects of the old system as well. The move to a strict template system was unnecessary and detrimental to the community as a whole. If we make a comparison checklist of positive characteristics between the previous dynamic system and the current static system, the old system would prevail. That was the main point I was essentially making.
  11. I said, " inferior on so many levels." I didn't say on every level.
  12. It is inferior on so many levels that it baffles me why people claim to like it... then I remember and respect the power propaganda/marketing has over people.
  13. I don't quite follow you fully on everything you wrote. I'm an average guy so you may need to flesh it out more. From what I do understand, you are correct that over half of the enemy is going to be higher tier than the minority bottom tier in the old MM, but that is what the system produces now, isn't it? The old system at least kept you around 30% bottom tier matches, most of which had a good breakdown of top, middle, and bottom tier tanks in them, instead of the currently almost 50% bottom at -2 tiers. I picked the single bottom tier scenario because an earlier poster stated that he liked the new MM because he didn't need to worry about being a single bottom tier tank anymore. I wanted to highlight that that fear is unfounded. I hear you about the KV-5. A lot of those old premiums that I have are collecting dust now. In a recent video, Lemming Rush (a content creator) said that he wasn't worried about credits for the moment, since he was selling off all of his failed tier 8 premium tanks now. I'm not ready to do that yet, but yeah, it is bad out there under the current MM.
  14. It doesn't make logical sense to give ourselves more bottom tier battles to just avoid one battle in 500. If I break down about 500 battles into the old probability numbers, it would about look like this... - top tier 175 - middle tier 175 - and bottom tier 150 To avoid being a single bottom tier tank in ONE battle, we now have this new set of numbers? - top tier 35 (21 in 3/5/7 and 14 in 5/10) - middle tier 90 - same tier 90 - and bottom tier 285 (224 in 3/5/7 and 61 in 5/10). It seems like an irrational fear to damn ourselves to such a lopsided distribution of matches, all in an effort to avoid one possible battle that rarely ever occurs. Most bottom tier matches under the old system had 4 or 5 top tier tanks in them. You would get more extreme matches here and there, but that was overall a positive as the system created unique situations for players to encounter. We used to operate under a system that provided a great deal of variety. It seems like a bad trade off sacrificing a roughly even balance of matches between top, middle, and bottom AND sacrificing the wide variety of matches we encountered to get an unbalanced and dull MM with the same 3 templates over and over, only to avoid one match that was only overly-challenging to a small segment of the population.
  15. Crap, you took the words right out of my head. I was going to write your first two sentences into my post, but I thought it was long enough and I already have a reputation for writing "articles" instead of posts. As for the 7/5/3 concept, I think you are right. Getting stuck in a system with a strict format is always going to depress some segment of the community. The worst part about it is that players know that they are only going to get one of a very limited few template alternatives each time they hit Battle. Currently we expect to be bottom tier in a 3/5/7 or 5/10 format and the only variety we see is during a minority of our matches when we see the other 4 positions (middle, same, and top in 3/5/7 and 5/10). Which is a pathetic variety. In a random system, each time you hit Battle, there are so many possibilities that you don't know what to expect. You could be top, middle, or bottom, and within those tier locations there is so much variety that even the dreaded bottom tier matches could end up being quite pleasurable with a 3/2/10 format or something like that. The drudgery of a predictable strict template is no match for a random system that distributes matches roughly evenly between top, middle, and bottom. Players are constantly left in suspense each time they enter a match in that type of system and can have reasonably high expectations of decent matches each time they play. I'm with you on the variety of tanks in matches too. I'd much prefer the variety of tanks in matches to create even more unique experiences. That proposed solution that was previously linked was an attempt at compromise between multiple MM factions. I listened to a lot of players and their concerns and attempted to find a common ground where most were happy. I'd rather get some variety back in the matches created by the MM instead of continuing with the horribly deflating experiences we currently have in the game. Top tier isn't a nebulous term. It is pretty straightforward. Top tier indicates that there are tanks below your tier in the match. So when playing as a "top tier tank," 1/14/0 and 14/1/0 would both be considered top tier, although extreme. Most players in a random system would rarely ever experience matches like that. Roughly guessing, it would be about 1 in 500 games for a player to even see a match like that (14/1/0, 1/14/0), let alone to be the lone tank. It is a non sequitur. The great mass of matches are likely to have between 3 and 7 tanks at each tier, equaling 15 tanks per team (ex. 3/7/5). My new player friend would certainly have been much happier playing in a random system where he had more battles from a position of superiority (about 35% compared with the current 8%), along with the expectation that any time he hit the Battle button he could be in that superior position, instead of the predictable inferiority that is enforced and expected from our MM today. Yup, another "article."
  16. There are also a lot of people that don't like the 3/5/7 MM. Tiers 1, 2, 3, 9, and 10 seem to function adequately enough to be playable (and by playable, that doesn't mean ideal). Tiers 4 to 8, the chief grinding tiers, are the worst to play in now. It would help if you explained why this current MM is a lot better than what we used to have. I've broken it down a few different ways, and in each way the current MM fails to outperform the previous version. The only part of the new MM that I generally support are the efforts to balance tanks on both teams, but that could have been implemented under the old system without a strict 3/5/7 template system, so it is really irrelevant to the argument. Here is a viable alternative. Scroll down to Part III, the "SOLUTION:" http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/551557-the-great-mm-debate-357-trash-or-triumph/page__pid__11152963#entry11152963 Edit: Here are two related comments just from today on the stickied EU Forum MM thread. If you go back into it, there are many, many, more. They already have 93 pages of comments on the new MM, mostly negative. There is a general frustration for many players that was created by this 3/5/7 system. New players, after tier 3, are especially savaged by this system. I introduced a friend to the game back in the late spring and after about 2 months he quite. He essentially blamed the MM indirectly. He told me he got tired of feeling under-powered compared to the enemy team. He felt that way because he was playing the middle tiers and he was constantly bottom tier while grinding those vehicles.
  17. My friends and I do the exact same thing. Someone is going to have a little luck out of the bunch.
  18. You don't need to check. If you played in platoons most of the time, you would remember that. If you did it a few times, it doesn't really make a difference. Thank you again for your information and the time it took you to put it together! I appreciate it!
  19. This is perfect. Thank you very much for posting this! While our figures differ on the 1 to 3 top tier tank numbers, they coincide on the middle of the bell curve that is created. I wonder if that is because one of us platooned more or because my sample has many 5, 6, and 7 tier matches included? In any case, it is irrelevant since the overwhelming evidence is that the old MM created the bulk of its matches with 4 or 5 top tier tanks in them (from both our samples). In a random system with three tiers present that would make logical sense too. Would you mind if I post your chart on threads I have on the official forums, giving credit to you of course?
  20. Thank you for the nice comment. No one seems to love the current MM and many players dislike it for various reasons. If another two or three updates go by without WG addressing it though, I fear we the players that remain are stuck with it.
  21. Sure. Take your time. And thanks again!
  22. No problem. Thanks for the information you provided. I don't know if you can manipulate your data for one last thing. Out of the tier 8 bottom tier matches, can you identify how many top tier tanks were in those matches? (Ex. 1 top tier = 3%, 2 = 7%, etc.). And also how many bottom tier tanks were in your matches when you were bottom tier in the same way? So this information should only be coming from your 25% bottom tier matches. From the data you collected so far I am guessing that bottom tier was a little more of a challenge in the previous MM, but you saw much less of it. In the games I took from me and my friend, we were both under 30% bottom tier matches, and that was with a spread of tiers in the sample. I thought it was a little strange. Now seeing your statistics, the pattern of less than 30% bottom tier matches continues. With the hard evidence presented and the known greater variety in the previous system, it is no wonder players enjoyed the game more back then.
  23. Very interesting numbers. That is incredible. Can you do the same for tiers 6 and 7? And thank you for doing this!
  24. Are you able to look at the spread in matches between top, middle, and bottom tier matches in tiers 5 to 8? Or something close to that from before April 2017? I'm curious to see how the old MM was on the EU server.
  25. Do you have games from before April 2017?