CarbonatedPork

Paying the Iron Price, or the Kewei Way

Paying the Iron Price  

50 members have voted

  1. 1. How did you improve the most at tier 10 play?

    • Solopubbed tier 10 until you got good at it.
    • Played some solo tier 10s mixed in with other tiers.
    • Platooned in tier 10 with similarly skilled players.
    • Platooned in tier 10 with a mentor.
    • Had a mentor review your tier 10 replays.
    • Watched a better player's replays/videos/stream.
    • There is little difference in play between tier 10 and lower tiers.
  2. 2. How would you recommend improving at tier 10 play?

    • Solopub tier 10 until you're good at it.
    • Play some solo tier 10s mixed in with other tiers.
    • Platoon in tier 10 with similarly skilled players.
    • Platoon in tier 10 with a mentor.
    • Have a mentor review your tier 10 replays.
    • Watch a better player's replays/videos/stream.
    • Play whatever tier you want. The skills are roughly equivalent.


33 posts in this topic

As you probably know, I've been with the hopes of getting better at it. I think it's working, but it's a hell of a slog.

 

How did you see the most improvement in tier 10 play and how would you recommend improving at tier 10?

 

If I've left out any options, please let me know and I'll add them.

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After a major slump where even my recent battles went below my overall, I decided that I would play no more than 5 battles per session, to reduce tilt, unless I was winning at a 60% or greater and all at TX, I definitely seem to be battling out of my slump, so Keweii may have been on to something....

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Play less games, but more games more mindfully. Take notes on mistakes and positional issues to try to address your habits. Stick with the same tank for 5+ games, even longer if very disciplined. Watch replays of better players in the same/similar tank. 

 

Right now you're trying to brute force it with a high volume of games. While trial and error is absolutely needed, you can get better results with more careful methods, like those outlined above. 

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How did you like our glorious single combat on Steppes last night? Your team eventually slew me :(

Also, Crab's advice is best advice. He's some kind of half-mad tank-teaching savant. You also possibly accidentally lucked out in that the E-50M is considered a good pubstomping tank by some unici; Anfield streams on his a fair amount, for instance.

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as with everything else, there's a certain depth of understanding you get from figuring out the solution to a problem yourself, as opposed to someone else telling you the answer.

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What tier 10 play has really forced me to do is learn how to read the enemy, predict their locations, and figure out how to best counter while maximizing my output and minimizing exposure. I think mixing solo with platoons of a mix of worse/better players than yourself forces you to do a few things:

 

Solo: Maximize your own potential, but frustrating

Platoon with better: Second set of eyes, bounce ideas off of and pick up positioning

Platoon with worse: Express why you're going the way you are, think out loud your decision making. I also tend to verbalize my decision making process out loud now anyways to ensure I stay focused

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I've been solo pubbing pretty much all my games. It sounds to me like you've platooned mostly right? Might be weird suddenly starting to solo at tier 10 and expecting it to work. Solo is different from platooning and requires that you adapt much more around your team. Other than that tier 10 to me isn't some magical super tier where everything is different.

 

If you want to solo pub, just start doing it, see where it goes wrong, check replays and streams for positional ideas but always try to build your understanding from the ground up as even good players can be wrong or that you only see the outer layer of what they do and not why they did it. 

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How did you like our glorious single combat on Steppes last night? Your team eventually slew me :(

Also, Crab's advice is best advice. He's some kind of half-mad tank-teaching savant. You also possibly accidentally lucked out in that the E-50M is considered a good pubstomping tank by some unici; Anfield streams on his a fair amount, for instance.

 

Skills acquisition is the same everywhere, tanks is just an easy venue with so many resources and unlimited chance to practice. 

 

as with everything else, there's a certain depth of understanding you get from figuring out the solution to a problem yourself, as opposed to someone else telling you the answer.

 

Indeed, I've been re-teaching myself and just soling my 62A/140/E5 has been the most useful thing. And of course reviewing replays and taking notes. I could prob ask my friends and acquaintances for feedback, but I don't think they could tell me more than I can tell myself, although the occasional check-in is helpful. 

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Play less games, but more games more mindfully. Take notes on mistakes and positional issues to try to address your habits. Stick with the same tank for 5+ games, even longer if very disciplined. Watch replays of better players in the same/similar tank. 

 

Right now you're trying to brute force it with a high volume of games. While trial and error is absolutely needed, you can get better results with more careful methods, like those outlined above. 

Thanks for the advice, Crabs. I'll slow down the volume, stick to one tank, and really focus on playing mindfully. Really appreciate it!

 

I've been solo pubbing pretty much all my games. It sounds to me like you've platooned mostly right? Might be weird suddenly starting to solo at tier 10 and expecting it to work. Solo is different from platooning and requires that you adapt much more around your team

Truthfully, I've played mostly solopub until recently. I think I'm having difficulty with tier 10 because mistakes are punished with alpha and autoloaders and the level of competition.

 

How did you like our glorious single combat on Steppes last night? Your team eventually slew me :(

That was one of the rare decent games I had last night. I played really well up until the end, when I got greedy and you slapped my hand for it. Good kill and good game!

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as with everything else, there's a certain depth of understanding you get from figuring out the solution to a problem yourself, as opposed to someone else telling you the answer.

 

 

Skills acquisition is the same everywhere, tanks is just an easy venue with so many resources and unlimited chance to practice. 

 

 

Indeed, I've been re-teaching myself and just soling my 62A/140/E5 has been the most useful thing. And of course reviewing replays and taking notes. I could prob ask my friends and acquaintances for feedback, but I don't think they could tell me more than I can tell myself, although the occasional check-in is helpful. 

 

 

While it is certainly a valid method, it is quite possible for players to arrive at the wrong "solutions."  We don't all have Crab's level of self-evaluation.  I figure most purples can evaluate well enough to correct their issues, but green/blue or below might not.  I know I don't always properly identify my mistakes, as some of my issues are hard wired into how I see the game.  It is immensely difficult to get a different perspective, when you only use your own eyes.  Even professional athletes need coaching.

 

You can probably identify (and potentially correct) 50-75% of your issues through self evaluation.  More if you have great insight.  More still if you watch better players, and gain an understanding of your failures.  But I don't think we can achieve our full potential alone.  

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In my limited experience, it is VERY rare for someone to just play a bunch of tier 10s and suddenly become a really great player.  Usually there's some form of mentorship involved with taking the next big step.  The main reason is that tier 10 magnifies mistakes much, much more than lower tiers and you just have no idea how many 'mistakes' you make in most matches because lower tiers are generally more forgiving.  Because you have no frame of reference to understand WHY what you learned doesn't work, it can be VERY frustrating to adapt to tier 10.

 

Replays are great for developing low-level skills (positioning, aiming, target selection, awareness) but they aren't as useful for the higher level stuff because you can't see what the player is actually thinking or see how THEY see the map and the situation.  You can see what they do but you can't see the why.

 

And this is where some form of mentorship comes into play-- mostly it's about providing some frame of reference so that you can begin to more readily identify your own mistakes and understand the flow of tier 10 games and better see the opportunities at hand.  This is VERY frustrating/difficult for most players to learn on their own.  Once you cross that bridge, the self-help method is quite valuable... until then, it can be very, very frustrating.

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Replays are great for developing low-level skills (positioning, aiming, target selection, awareness) but they aren't as useful for the higher level stuff because you can't see what the player is actually thinking or see how THEY see the map and the situation.  You can see what they do but you can't see the why.

 

 

 

I just pause and rewind until i figure out why. But then I've been mentored or played with almost uni in WoT. 

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That was one of the rare decent games I had last night. I played really well up until the end, when I got greedy and you slapped my hand for it. Good kill and good game!

If it's any consolation, I have a really, really, bad habit of doing that a lot, too. I'll be like "Oh, we're winning really hard. Time to #rek these #fgts!", and I'll just completely get shit on, usually also throwing the game.

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I just pause and rewind until i figure out why. But then I've been mentored or played with almost uni in WoT. 

 

I do the same thing-- I actually don't watch the replays fast forwarded because I try and 'play' the replay.  As soon as the person I'm watching deviates from what I would have done, then I pause and try and figure out the why.  As time as gone on-- and as I've gotten my face punched in repeatedly-- I'm getting better and better at it.

 

But I've had the opposite of your experience, I've very rarely ever platooned with someone more skilled than me-- I can probably count the total number of people on two hands and the total games is easily less than 200-- and probably less than 20 games total with two people more skilled than me and I've never really been mentored (directly) by anyone (though I've consumed hundreds and hundreds of hours of indirect mentoring via replays and discussions on the forums :)).

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I solopubbed my IS-7 until I could hold at least 2200 wn8 for the session -- originally I started at about 1400 wn8 recent. After that it's been platooning with good players for me, but they weren't actively mentoring; I think they just rubbed off on me ^^

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I've been solo pubbing pretty much all my games. It sounds to me like you've platooned mostly right? Might be weird suddenly starting to solo at tier 10 and expecting it to work. Solo is different from platooning and requires that you adapt much more around your team. Other than that tier 10 to me isn't some magical super tier where everything is different.

 

If you want to solo pub, just start doing it, see where it goes wrong, check replays and streams for positional ideas but always try to build your understanding from the ground up as even good players can be wrong or that you only see the outer layer of what they do and not why they did it. 

Usually how I feel. I never really understand solo pup challenges. Maybe I just don't platoon enough to see how special solo pupping is.

 

Though Solo pupping I limit myself to max 15 games a session. I feel the longer I go on the more I suck or the team or both. Cool off then start playing again.

You either got to for go a flank because the lemming train is going one way and you have to go with them. Unless you can go to a spot that is easily defensible by one tank(dependent on the tank you have). 

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Platoon with worse: Express why you're going the way you are, think out loud your decision making. I also tend to verbalize my decision making process out loud now anyways to ensure I stay focused

 

Looking for someone to platoon with who will do this.  Hit me up with an invite if you're in a teaching mood.

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I used to suck balls at tier 10. Absolute balls, but i decided to get good, back around christmas, IIRC. Basically what I did was find a good platoon mate, (usually ended up being Pity), and started playing 10s. I watched other players play in similar tanks to mine, after I had died/Youtube videos, the Meta at tier 10 is very different to tier 6-8, where until then I spent the vast majority of the time. Seeing how I should be playing. Solopub can work, but i found it easier to learn when I had a better player than me giving advice on where to go/what to do/etc.

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I'm better at tier 10 than I am at tier 5, the unpredictability of the lower tiers drives me insane and I do awful. When I first hit tier 8 it was a huge relief and my stats instantly started climbing. I do better solo than in a platoon as well, it helps me focus more on what the enemy and my team is doing as I don't feel like I "trust" two more people on my team to do the right thing and then get let down. 

 

I would really like to try platooning with someone gud @ tonks, I've never had the chance to platoon with someone overall better than myself and its not like I'm very good, I taught myself based on streams and replays and videos along with a healthy dose of reading forums. 

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I'm seeing a lot of love for the platooning options. I'm guessing a good chunk of that is so that you don't get so damned frustrated with the wild swings of solopubbing. Makes me glad to have signed up to platoon with Otis, Juris, and deathmachine for their T62A v. Object 140 comparison challenge games.

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I demand self analysis of your games from yesterday!

 

Here is mine:

 

I had 2 memorably bad games.

 

In the first, I was playing WZ-111 on the Himmels hill, and I let myself get isolated, not noticing that the 9s I was facing off with were eating the 7s behind me and growing more confident when I did not return fire. I am not confident in my WZ-111 and I should have loaded HEAT on the M103 and E-75 instead of being cheap and waiting for AP pennable shots. Early alpha best alpha and the WZ needs it because its armor isn't gonna help. So map and shot selection failure led to early demise with little done. 

 

Second, E5 on Hidden Village. bluestealth asked me to go north into the village from the S spawn. I didn't ask enough questions and so I bungled ahead into unfamiliar terrain and got rekt from the middle. Later I clarified that the goal was to get cross shots into middle and keep the enemy from pushing through to do the same to blue. My total lack of critical thinking on that position and failure to slow my role and evaluate the terrain kept me from having a good game. It was still a win, but it should have been a better personal performance for me.

 

Those two games kept me from posting an ideal session. Otherwise, was ok. Most of my play can be reviewed on blue's stream archive.

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I only had one really bad game yesterday:

 

North spawn on Pearl River in FV4202, I went across the middle to spot the bridge on the opposite side. I light up an E75, Obj 704 and FV 215b 183. The deathstar stopped and turns so I back off for a little bit and decide to pop back over for another look (my gut is screaming at me not to do it). Sure enough, he was still waiting for me and put a HEAT shell through the top of my turret the instant it poked up leaving me on 3 HP. I went on to die in the next 15 seconds to an arty splash when I knew full well I should have fucked off from there to begin with, team lost in less than 4 minutes after that. 

 

Moral of the story to myself, trust the gut instinct that says don't do it. 

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IS-4 on Airfield.I go to the hump at F5. My thoughts were to get side/read shots at enemy tanks At E6 pushing into E7, as well as to counter an E75/ Tiger 2 team attempting the same. I got a handful of shots, also forced a JPE100 off of the ledge at G3. I then got greedy and pushed over to finish off the E75. Dealt with him, with the help of our IS7. Then we ran into the JPE100, a Waffle and a batchat on the hill and died helplessly. Moral, I should have stayed put, or pushed up into E6 and helped the team there.

 

Final tally, 2k damage, 0 kills, loss.

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I demand self analysis of your games from yesterday!

Man, you're going to make me work for this? What kind of slavedriver are you?!?

 

I'll have to open up the replays for a more detailed analysis, but there are a couple of games that stood out in my mind from the games last night. Here's the quick results for reference:

SU9lkje.png

Here's what I can remember of some of the sucky games last night:

  • Swamp: I abandoned a strong flank to RTB and got #rekt by a batchat and Dlur in his IS-7. Had I instead pushed, we probably would've forced their hand and won the game. They had no TDs to defend their base and only a Löwe stood between us and crushing that side. Our team stalled when I left and we were eliminated.
  • Siegfried Line: Not the best map for the FV4202, but I played decently until midgame. We eliminated their mediums in the field, but I decided to go back and help brawl since we had more heavies than they did. I probably should've tried to ride the wall and flank, but instead did a shitty job of brawling. Even hit the back of a teammate's turret. Fun times.
  • Arctic Region: The shittiest of initial positioning on my part. I tried to play that little midfield TD perch on the northern spawn when I should've contributed to one of the flanks. Generally kept myself out of the fight. I came in to support a T57 later, but when it stalled I tried to go around and got myself blasted in mid field. Bad decision after bad decision.
  • Himmelsdorf: Went to the train tracks side and stalled out in a protracted sidescrape brawl with a WZ 111 model 1-4. Basically, I allowed myself to get locked up by a lower tier tank when I should've moved somewhere else to fight.

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IS-4 on Airfield.I go to the hump at F5. My thoughts were to get side/read shots at enemy tanks At E6 pushing into E7, as well as to counter an E75/ Tiger 2 team attempting the same. I got a handful of shots, also forced a JPE100 off of the ledge at G3. I then got greedy and pushed over to finish off the E75. Dealt with him, with the help of our IS7. Then we ran into the JPE100, a Waffle and a batchat on the hill and died helplessly. Moral, I should have stayed put, or pushed up into E6 and helped the team there.

 

Final tally, 2k damage, 0 kills, loss.

 

Indeed this is representative of folks at the green level in general and thus a worthy lesson, not just for this map, but for all cases where there are big spaces to cross. Crossing those spaces is very very dangerous with TDs and autoloaders lurking. F5 was a good early deployment if your team had enough weight (armor/hp/firepower) at E6 brawl. Both getting side shots and spotting down a JpE are strong early moves and a hull-down IS-4 is a good tool for making them.

 

But once you push over F5 you are committing. You NEED to know what is camping in those TD areas, which means watching the map to see what is camping in the northern TD areas and what is unspotted and making your best guesses.

 

However if there was any chance that E6 was not completely resolved in your team's favor, going up to that engagement is really the best move. Never forget Lanchester's Laws because they always apply and your decisions, once self preservation is covered, should be mostly informed about where you can create a local advantage. 

 

Staying put would probably have been a waste of time. With the E-75 wounded, here are the questions you ought to have asked yourself:

 

Is E6 won?

Are there TDs on the next ridge? Or are they clustered on the north ridge?

 

Depending on the answers to those choices (and provided you aren't being flanked around the southern hill) then the optimal positional decision is readily made. Try to think through the options for those 3 questions, and figure out what the best move is based on those answers.

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