Deathpig_Jones

T49 -- Land Arty in a Bite-Size Package

922 posts in this topic

2 hours ago, rev01ution said:

I was in pretty heavy denial that I threw that match, but yup that was on me. I probably threw about 4 games in my 3 hour session last night, yuck. I'm working on it though, goals have been set to get my win rate up to 65%. Just not positive that I have all the info I need to make it happen yet!

Still, hell of an effort there by dual. The end of that game is a must watch.

When your gun isn't long
And the map
The map is yours alone
When you're sure you've had enough
Of this game
Well hang on
Don't let yourself go
'Cause everybody cries
And everybody throws sometimes

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26 minutes ago, CraBeatOff said:

When your gun isn't long
And the map
The map is yours alone
When you're sure you've had enough
Of this game
Well hang on
Don't let yourself go
'Cause everybody cries
And everybody throws sometimes

Wow. REM lyrics?! I haven't heard that song in years. 

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So I'm wondering how you guys go about the ammo selection. I love the GIF's but they never show whether the penning shots were HEAT or HE. Some are easy to guess obviously, others not so much.

How do you guys go about loading the right ammo for the right butt?

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Look at the bottom of the screen to see the green outline around the ammo when looking at a gif. I guarantee no one is switching their HEAT ammo around to be on the 1 key, so that's a good way to tell. As far as loading the right ammo in game, you have to see certain tanks in front of you that are heavy but not tier 10 super heavy. Examples include VKB, T10, JTiger and of course you only want to load your HEAT when you are sure you can get their side/booty as needed to pen... otherwise keep the HE splashin

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28 minutes ago, Nalok said:

So I'm wondering how you guys go about the ammo selection. I love the GIF's but they never show whether the penning shots were HEAT or HE. Some are easy to guess obviously, others not so much.

How do you guys go about loading the right ammo for the right butt?

Somewhere earlier in this thread there is a post about that...

But realistically you look at the armor models and by tier/class/type butt plates are reasonably standard. All meds except Germans can get HE butt penned, Brit French and American heavies get HE butt penned. Germans on a KT/Panther hull or similar hull need HEAT. RU TDs need HEAT. Chinese basically need what RU needs - HEAT for heavies. Maus/E-100/JpE/Type4/5/KV-4/5 can never be penned (unless your name is @PlanetaryGenocide...once...ever) so load HE and don't even bother flanking

Things can get more complicated when you're not 100% sure what plate you're gonna get and at what angle. T32 for example has a precise ass pen, and thus can be hard to get with HE. Meds turn fast, so getting flat ass could be hard, you might go HEAT and get the sides or the ass easier, or you might choose HE for lower exposure, dunk and roll. 

Ammo choice is def part of the fun

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Derpidan is the best tank to farm dmg on afk entire enemy team on sandbox. 6 shots give 5k dmg and there is no other tank in game that could do that so fast. It's stupid but I have some fun :drunk:

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Did you know that chodefriend @rev01ution has been streaming? He's actually pretty good at explaining what he is doing and why he is doing it. You can catch the archived streams here: https://go.twitch.tv/rev01ution/videos/all. Among other things, he is working on trying to improve his win rate so after a loss or bad death he usually talks through what he thinks he should have done differently. This is basically the process I used to get better. Eventually those concepts become habit and you start winning more without working too hard.

I figure it like this: in 2-3 hours you could play 20 games. If you can manage to change just one of those twenty games from a loss into a win, you bump your win rate by 5%. So, let's take a look at 3 games from last night where rev-oh-one-ution could possibly have changed the game into a win (incidentally, he mostly recognizes this post game and comments on it).

This is the archive stream: https://go.twitch.tv/videos/181310486

Game 1: Highway (@54:00 stream time)

At about the 10:30 mark (game time) his team has a total of 7 tanks on this side while the enemy has 2 and is on the retreat. City is lost soon. The best chance of a win here is to fast cap. Of course, his team is a little spread out and is being super cautious (like him) because there is a 183 on the other side. So what to do?

It's time to advance to the ditch at G2. Not only is it a useful position, but moving forward helps the pubbies to understand that they should also be moving forward. Every second that ticks by without crushing the flank decreases your chance of winning so speed is important. Eventually rev advances, but should have played the ramp at the very south end of G2 instead of the bush further back. He does finally engage the 183 (but oddly doesn't kill him) while his team has melted and the game is over.

Making the move earlier wouldn't guarantee the win - many things could still go wrong - but the odds of pulling off a win are better. 

Game 2: Serene Coast (@1:25:00 stream time)

Rev makes the critical mistake at 13:20 (game time) of following my terrible call to go middle. You can see I waffle a little bit about going 1 line or middle and end up choosing middle. Rev supports me like a good chodefriend, but I end up taking both of us out of the fight for a minute or two. While we're dicking around getting nothing done, our tanks at C1 get overmatched, outgunned, and die. At that point there is little we can do to win.

The correct play was to push up to C1 and join the brawl. We get a 5v3 or 5v4 overmatch and can pretty easily kill 3+ of their tanks without losing any of ours. From there we have the whole north open to flank or flex back toward our cap. In watching the replay, I realize this was actually a pretty easy win.

Game 3: Kharkov (@ 2:18:00 stream time)

Starting at 13:40 (game time) rev does almost nothing for two straight minutes. He's not doing any damage, he's not denying any part of the map to the enemy, he's not even being a threat to anything. The south is decisively won and they won't be able to push out from there so the best bet is to head into town and help win the brawl. There's a 215b stuck in a 1v2; rev could possibly change the outcome of that mini-engagement. There's a T30 who can't advance because he is alone; with a T49 at his side perhaps he can engage something or push. Even just being around to break turrets and turn tanks can be significant.

I'm not sure if the game was winnable even if he went town earlier, but the odds increase significantly. The chance for BUTTS also increases significantly!

--------------------------

Anyways, thumbs up for the stream, I hope it continues!

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@rev01ution and @dualmaster333  chodefriends, we should sometimes synch start replays on Rev's stream and talk about the counts, guesses, map control/coverage and trades - for the more interesting replays. That is, when we're not feeling like zoom zoom boom boom, which is never (or when my piss poor internets won't let me play :-D). I doubt more than like 8 people on the internet have the stomach for that kind of pedantry, but it can be kinda fun, and will accelerate Rev's winrate project. And maybe we'll net another regular #chode$tar for more platoonz.

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@dualmaster333 Thanks for the high effort post. I like the feedback a lot, 2 of those 3 are totally winnable. Highway was the one where I was most clueless about how to win. The last hour of the stream after that kharkov game was fun and pretty good.

@CraBeatOff I'm totally a nerd for that kind of stuff

I'll stream tonight as well

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5 minutes ago, CraBeatOff said:

And maybe we'll net another regular #chode$tar for more platoonz.

I'm working on it, but I'm only up to the Chaffee so far. :/

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Rev and I had a glorious 3 GIF game!

pEXuJMw.gif

rHtuYWx.gif

xPXV3xf.gif

And this is the kind of thing every little chode dreams of:

hqdJY2h.gif

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4 hours ago, CraBeatOff said:

Maus/E-100/JpE/Type4/5/KV-4/5 can never be penned (unless your name is @PlanetaryGenocide...once...ever) so load HE and don't even bother flanking

:kappa:

Although to be fair, someone on reddit did it with a Type 4 or a Type 5 a few months back so it's not just me anymore.  Sorta.

5 hours ago, Nalok said:

So I'm wondering how you guys go about the ammo selection. I love the GIF's but they never show whether the penning shots were HEAT or HE. Some are easy to guess obviously, others not so much.

How do you guys go about loading the right ammo for the right butt?

I have a "list" in my head that has some broad categories and then some specific things.

Anything German that isn't the WT line or a light tank, with the exception of most of the tier 10s because lol superheavies, is the primary thing I load HEAT for.  VK 4502B side/butt? almost guaranteed HEAT pen.  You can even pen the "door" on the JPE's rear with a high pen roll but don't ever count on that you're better off with HE still.

Russia/China heavy butts.  

Etc.

Basically if you think within the next 20 seconds you're going to come across a tank where the armor is "cardboard" instead of "paper" or "actual armor" you should consider loading a HEAT round.

You can even pen O-Ho and O-Ni hull (and turret for O-Ni) sides with it and if you really wanted to roll the dice you could do it with a Type 4 but generally not worth the effort and your aim would have to be perfect.

 

And besides, if you happen across a squishy instead you can still shoot HEAT at them for a decent amount of damage :disco:

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@Nalok you can also kind of infer from the gifs by the shell count. For example I can tell in @dualmaster333 's first gif from that 3 batch that he's experimenting with the HEAT on the opener as suggested by @GAIMER, for a better chance of a full pen. HE is prob only a 50-50 on that opener...because you've got track coverage on most LTs, but a very short window to aim/fire (no chance to shift aim above tracks!). HEAT has a chance to get you a 0 dmg crit, but it also appears from early testing to be a decent choice. Yesterday I nabbed a kill on a T69 side that would not have penned with HE except in the rarest of circumstances. Of course with 2 chodes loaded with HE on that shot, your chances of getting a full pen + 400+ splash are quite high, and at the very worst you get 800, modules, and a track. But there is some sense is trying HEAT on that shot. I'm trying to expand my HEAT use to up the dpgs a little. 

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Remember that 152 mm HEAT can overmatch a lot  like M103s turrets (lol) and the STRV0 (tier ix one). Also if you are above them HE might not pen engine decks depending on the angle but HEAT generally does always because of the overmatch.

HEAT is also very useful when you are facing frontally tanks like Leo or Skodas since they can bounce the HE but not the HEAT. If you know you are going to face them preload it.

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13 hours ago, dualmaster333 said:

Did you know that chodefriend @rev01ution has been streaming? He's actually pretty good at explaining what he is doing and why he is doing it. You can catch the archived streams here: https://go.twitch.tv/rev01ution/videos/all.

Confirmed great streamer! Very helpful commentary. Thanks for letting us know!

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7 hours ago, nabucodonsor said:

Remember that 152 mm HEAT can overmatch a lot  like M103s turrets (lol) and the STRV0 (tier ix one). Also if you are above them HE might not pen engine decks depending on the angle but HEAT generally does always because of the overmatch.

HEAT is also very useful when you are facing frontally tanks like Leo or Skodas since they can bounce the HE but not the HEAT. If you know you are going to face them preload it.

I know Macus said this already but it bears repeating: HEAT doesn't overmatch

 

That being said, one of the items I left off my list is Patton/Pershing LFP - you can in fact pen it with HEAT on level ground, and you can pen their UFP if you can negate the sloping.  It's pretty dope but generally not worth trying since you have to hit the exact right spot and they'd have to be retarded to give you a flat angle on their LFP.

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BUT! It also doesn't autobounce til 80 degrees, which means you get some thin but slope-y plates that you can pen with it, but can't otherwise with AP/APCR

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Yeah I always forget that HEAT doesn't overmatch. The 80° instead of 70° auto bounce angle is what matters. Actually making use of that in the T49 is pretty situational though because you still need the penetration to get through the effective armor.

Let's take a 40mm plate:

  • At 70° the EA=117mm
  • At 75° the EA=155mm
  • At 80° the EA=230mm

So by 75° our 152mm HEAT pen is getting less than even odds of penetrating. This is for a chance to land 700 alpha. On the other hand, you can shoot an HE shell that on the same surface will hit for ~400 every single time. So I'm not convinced it's a worthwhile strategy.

You know what I just learned? The HEAT round is only 700 damage, not 750. This would explain why I've been rolling sub-700 so often...

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21 minutes ago, dualmaster333 said:

You know what I just learned? The HEAT round is only 700 damage, not 750. This would explain why I've been rolling sub-700 so often...

bruh you just blew my fucking mind everything makes so much more sense now

 

I always sort of assumed it was 750... all other 150mm-ish guns are 750/900 for not-HE/HE but this one is 700/910?

 

dafuq

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36 minutes ago, dualmaster333 said:

Yeah I always forget that HEAT doesn't overmatch. The 80° instead of 70° auto bounce angle is what matters. Actually making use of that in the T49 is pretty situational though because you still need the penetration to get through the effective armor.

Let's take a 40mm plate:

  • At 70° the EA=117mm
  • At 75° the EA=155mm
  • At 80° the EA=230mm

So by 75° our 152mm HEAT pen is getting less than even odds of penetrating. This is for a chance to land 700 alpha. On the other hand, you can shoot an HE shell that on the same surface will hit for ~400 every single time. So I'm not convinced it's a worthwhile strategy.

You know what I just learned? The HEAT round is only 700 damage, not 750. This would explain why I've been rolling sub-700 so often...

IIRC it's 85 for HEAT.

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Off-topic, but I love how this thread originally started as theorycrafting, doubters of the tank's effectiveness, and "play the Ru instead" before evolving to its final form of "Cult of the Chode$tarz".

 

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