Yuri_Yslin

Object 260 vs. IS-7 analysis

26 posts in this topic

Soo basically we won't have any "real" opinions on the vehicle coming from best players for quite a while, I guess. All that's left is theorycrafting, and based on it we'll attempt the ridiculous missions or not.

 

So why don't we theorycraft a bit?

 

Many people stated that Obj260 is flat out better than both IS-7 and IS-4. Going by stats alone, it's true. By now everybody knows that it's an upgraded gun of IS-4 and an IS-4 turret (more or less) on IS-7's chassis with a much more powerful engine installed and ground resistance lowered.

 

So this time let's focus on little things that can make or break the tank.

 

Let's start by something obvious:

 

1. Object 260 cannot face hug

 

The question is: how valuable is facehugging to you, dear unicum?

Because obviously, 260 can't do it. You can overmatch the roof or shoot the cupola if you can't reach the roof.

 

NvMMnal.png

 

Being 30mm thick, the roof is overmatched even by 90mm guns

2. Object 260 is weaker in a hulldown position

 

The roof, the cupola, and the fact that it has -5 depression rather than -6.

 

IS-7 is pretty much impervious to anything from a hulldown position and you can chug HE at it at best. 260 can be penned in several spots (also the 250mm effective mantlet strap) and it might have (this wasn't tested yet, I guess) a shot trap in addition to the weakspots. The shape of the mantlet suggests you may ricochet shells off it straight down the driver's hatch.

 

WaruQB5.png

 

Yep, it definitively ricochets when hit here. Question is: where does the shell go? if it goes downward, it's basically a big weakspot.

Keep in mind that the edges of the turret do not ricochet - they are 390mm effective. Only the mantlet does.

 

3. Object 260 has worse premium ammo

 

This one is controversial, but IMHO IS-7 APCR - even though it's not the best APCR round out there - still beats 260's HEAT because HEAT sucks.

 

4. Object 260 has weaker armor against multiple opponents

 

This is something I found @ tank inspector. Basically, at a 30 degree angles or more, you can pen the tank through the frontal sprocket and detrack it at the same time.

 

5Q9xeUv.png

 

 

You can check in the tank inspector - basically, this whole area is both weak and may end up with you damaged&detracked, the heavy tanker's nightmare. it's mostly 225mm effective with straps of 180mm effective.

 

IS-7 has the whole area smaller and stronger:

 

CDOizFm.png

 

230-235 mm effective on most parts.

 

The area of weakness of 260 is quite big and it can (possibly) ruin the tank.

 

 

5. Object 260 is much weaker from above

 

You're probably aware of the roof, you may not be aware of this area:

 

s6r7GbA.png

 

It's 60mm effective, and the hatch is 120mm effective. This can seriously suck when you're below the opponent. It might also be that tall tanks (E-100 in particular) can shoot here on flat ground, can't say without ingame tests.

 

IS-7 has the whole area smaller; it's 230mm effective from the same angle and the hatch is 270mm effective from the same angle, so it can't be considered weak, at all.

 

6. Object 260 is weaker to artillery

 

Any hit to the area marked in green will pen and do the usual skypig massacre: (a small error here, the back of the turret isn't autopen obviously)

 

gq6IfAr.png

 

Whereas for IS-7 it's less severe

 

nydG5dZ.png

 

In addition, the rear armor is thinner. This means arty splash behind the tank will hurt you considerably more in 260 than in IS-7.

 

Conclusions

 

Since I do not own an IS-7, I will not make any - I leave this to you. The question is: how much do you value things like hulldown and facehug, and the overall reliability of your armor and are you ready to give that up for IS-4 gun (with less bloom and quicker aim) and considerably more HP/T?

 

Going theorycrafting again,IS-7 thrives on hulling down, because every bump makes you frontally invincible to most tanks, and it's a feature obj260 can't fully reproduce. If your LFP is exposed at range, both tanks are easy to pen, and you need to come close to bump the LFP values up due to angle of the guns aiming downwards. But if you do, you risk easy roofshots, cupolashots, mantlet shots (assuming it's a shot trap as predicted) and 30 degree tracking shots which are way more easier and reliable.

 

In other words, not the brawling monster IS-7 is.

 

Instead, it competes more directly with T110E5, which has similar issues (being tracked & damaged at an angle; unreliable turret) and is slightly slower in a straight line (37 km/h vs. 42 km/h on flat ground) but has more hp/t on medium ground, a better gun (way better bloom values, more accurate, less aimtime, -8 depression).

 

Up to you to decide whether it's worth it or not, I'm curious because I'll be deciding upon the missions based on IS-7 players' opinions, too ^^

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Better gun stats, better pen (with standard APCR, dat shell velocity), more DPM and a hell of alot faster, while still having pretty decent armor...

 

I dont know, but id say 260 better in like 60-70% of situations.

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Better gun stats, better pen (with standard APCR, dat shell velocity), more DPM and a hell of alot faster, while still having pretty decent armor...

 

I dont know, but id say 260 better in like 60-70% of situations.

 

Nothing stops you from going full APCR in IS-7. You can get 40 more APCR pen and similar velocity with the IS-7, while 260 gets shitty HEAT round :)

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Nothing stops you from going full APCR in IS-7. You can get 40 more APCR pen and similar velocity with the IS-7, while 260 gets shitty HEAT round :)

sometimes heat can reallllly be shit, but vs german hvy and lets say the lfp of an E3 340 heat is pretty dam good

 

and i dont have too feel like a scumbag for spamming apcr, since its standard (the "gold noob" rage in the obj. 260 is gonna be funny)

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It really is a mix of the is7 and the e5 (2 best t10 heavies if you ask me), unreliable armor, good mobility mixed with rather accurate gun(compared to the is7 at least). It should have an e5's playstyle rather than the is7's(even though I facehug wit both,so maybe neither).

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More flexibility because of the mobility, better gun handling would allow it to stay more mobile, still way better protected than the E5 as those weak spots are much smaller and side armour protects a lot better from arty splash. 

 

I think for better players it's the better tank. 

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As a generalist, definitively.

 

But the maps really favor gimmicks, I think. There are multiple places where IS-7 can go invulnerable (pretty much) and Obj260 can't.

 

I think (theorycrafting again) that Obj260 is more of a medium-distance tank, while IS-7 is a in-your-face tank. There are more places in the game that favor the very close combat brawling. Many medium-distance spots require good depression, too. So Obj260 may uncomfortably shift around looking for a spot to be truly good at.

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My personal experience with HEAT has always been far better than with all but really high pen, high accuracy APCR. Especially so in brawling heavy tanks where velocity isn't an issue. I would consider 340 HEAT a plus over 303 APCR, especially with a better AP round to boot.

 

I know with HEAT all I have to do is aim at the big flat piece of armour which is least obliquely angled, and the high pen value will go straight though it. It will almost never ricochet and practically the only time it fails to pen is when you hit tracks/spaced armour (which you're retarded for aiming at). The fact that it doesn't ricochet also opens up many more surfaces to target (E75 turret roof anyone?)

 

So many times I fire APCR at a relatively thinly armoured tank and have it ricochet due to the 70° rule (RU mediums grrrr). Either a miscalculation of angles on my part, a moving tank or a slight variance in RNG not putting the shell where I aim it. If all you have is the side of a tank to aim at, that's what AP is for. Or the turret.

 

I know that with HEAT, if I do my part it will go through. Plus the sizzle make goldhate pubs rage. My personal opinion of course, I know others have different experiences to me but I hope my argument makes sense.

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As a generalist, definitively.

 

But the maps really favor gimmicks, I think. There are multiple places where IS-7 can go invulnerable (pretty much) and Obj260 can't.

 

I think (theorycrafting again) that Obj260 is more of a medium-distance tank, while IS-7 is a in-your-face tank. There are more places in the game that favor the very close combat brawling. Many medium-distance spots require good depression, too. So Obj260 may uncomfortably shift around looking for a spot to be truly good at.

 

Yeh but tiny weakspots for medium like mobiltiy and way better gun handling.

 

Of course the IS7 will keep doing what it can do but the Obj260 will do almost as good a job in those situations whilst being superior almost everywhere else and able to react across the map.

 

The weakspots I think are compensated by the gun handling, the IS7 has to sit still for much longer to actually hit anything. The 260 doesn't and it's hardly like it's cupolas are E5 standards, they are small targets on par maybe even smaller than the police bar on the E100.

 

The 260 is the heavy/medium hybrid the T110E5 wishes it was, can actually go medium speeds whilst maintaining superior all round protection. Of course the E5 maintains the gun edge but the 260 isn't far behind. 

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I know with HEAT all I have to do is aim at the big flat piece of armour which is least obliquely angled, and the high pen value will go straight though it.

 

My biggest problem is that when encountering a tank that is angled 45degrees or something (or shows mostly side armor), and is at a medium distance, the HEAT will ridiculously struggle. Shooting any side armor with HEAT makes me extremely uncomfortable, and brawling with HEAT when I have to aim for LFPs and opponents keep trying to angle makes it even worse.  In the first case, the shot somehow magnetically get pulled to tracks around 50% of the time, doing nothing (or the worst case: wild IS-7 appears at 90 degrees side to me - CAN'T PEN lol). In the second case, if I miss the LFP by an inch, I hit the tracks and do nothing. It's very frustrating and I really hate HEAT because of that, the amount of missed damage is HUGE.

 

 

 

Yeh but tiny weakspots for medium like mobiltiy and way better gun handling.

 

Of course the IS7 will keep doing what it can do but the Obj260 will do almost as good a job in those situations whilst being superior almost everywhere else and able to react across the map.

 

The weakspots I think are compensated by the gun handling, the IS7 has to sit still for much longer to actually hit anything. The 260 doesn't and it's hardly like it's cupolas are E5 standards, they are small targets on par maybe even smaller than the police bar on the E100.

 

The 260 is the heavy/medium hybrid the T110E5 wishes it was, can actually go medium speeds whilst maintaining superior all round protection. Of course the E5 maintains the gun edge but the 260 isn't far behind. 

 

There are three distinctive ones (cupola, roof and gun mantlet which is 250mm flat at the "square" part - vs. HEAT too) and a possible shot trap at the mantlet. For a tank that's supposed to go up close and personal, that's quite a lot. If you don't go up close and personal, all that armor means nothing because LFP is autopen. If you hide the LFP at range, you still offer the turret weakspots and you only have -5 depression, at which point IS-7 offers better hulldown, and FV215b offers a better one too + better firepower (if we're after chasing gimmicky hulldown spots, because that's what left for -5 dep tanks).

 

In addition, the quite MASSIVE area where you end up damaged+detracked from angles exceeding 30 degrees mean that this tank absolutely can't risk fighting vs. multiple opponents, unlike IS-7.

 

THe mobility isn't "medium like". Sure it's better than IS-7's, but not that much. It's less mobile than T110E5, which is already a "slow medium". It does go 5 km/h faster than it in a straight line, of course, but don't expect rapid manouvers. It's not a med. You only go 4 km/h faster than IS-7. For the turning speed, Quickybaby made a direct comparisons of IS-7 turning 360 degrees along 260 and them doing a small race on Himmel and while the 260 is obviously more mobile, it's not really THAT much of a difference like people exaggerate.

 

260 has way worse gun handling than E5 and is less mobile, so for starters it's a worse "medium" than E5. The side armor is nice but the massive weakness to being damaged+tracked forces you to maintain fights within corridors everywhere else expect people to track+damage you). In corridors, your LFP is autopen, just like E5's, and you have only 2100 HP (least of HTs), so you kinda need to look for hulling down, and when hulled down, you're a worse IS-4 armor-wise, with a better gun handling, but inferior turret and HP. IS-4 only has the roof weakspot, you have much more. You also can't facehug, and expect people to aim at the numerous weakspots of the turret when you brawl with them at short ranges, where IS-7 is completely damage immune.

 

I'm not sold completely on 260. Having a decent gun is just a start; however, losing all the gimmicks that make IS-7 powerful is not quite good. If you want a fantastic gun on a fairly mobile platform, both 215b and E5 offer better alternatives.

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My personal experience with HEAT has always been far better than with all but really high pen, high accuracy APCR. Especially so in brawling heavy tanks where velocity isn't an issue. I would consider 340 HEAT a plus over 303 APCR, especially with a better AP round to boot.

 

I know with HEAT all I have to do is aim at the big flat piece of armour which is least obliquely angled, and the high pen value will go straight though it. It will almost never ricochet and practically the only time it fails to pen is when you hit tracks/spaced armour (which you're retarded for aiming at). The fact that it doesn't ricochet also opens up many more surfaces to target (E75 turret roof anyone?)

 

So many times I fire APCR at a relatively thinly armoured tank and have it ricochet due to the 70° rule (RU mediums grrrr). Either a miscalculation of angles on my part, a moving tank or a slight variance in RNG not putting the shell where I aim it. If all you have is the side of a tank to aim at, that's what AP is for. Or the turret.

 

I know that with HEAT, if I do my part it will go through. Plus the sizzle make goldhate pubs rage. My personal opinion of course, I know others have different experiences to me but I hope my argument makes sense.

260's base round is APCR.

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260's base round is APCR.

 

Even better then. APCR velocity really helps in some situations.

 

Small anecdote from yesterday that illustrates my point about randomness of AP/APCR:

 

Ensk in an IS3. Find myself pushing into one of the courtyards from the south and enemy LTTB yolos in at the same time, apparently ready to fight. I put a shot into him and he panics and backs up, but crashes into a wall with rubble at the base. Tank is roughly 45° to me so I aim for his front sprocket, and fire from about 50m away(not sure if AP or APCR). Shot herpaderps a few inches sideways, into his lower glacis. No problem right? Nope. His back end was raised by the rubble which increased the angle on his lower glacis. 70° rule kicks in and shot ricochets into the dirt in front of him. Apparently emboldened he yolos and DPMs me down to 100HP before I finally finish him. I fail more shots like that by far than I do by firing HEAT at spaced armour.

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Ensk in an IS3. Find myself pushing into one of the courtyards from the south and enemy LTTB yolos in at the same time, apparently ready to fight. I put a shot into him and he panics and backs up, but crashes into a wall with rubble at the base. Tank is roughly 45° to me so I aim for his front sprocket, and fire from about 50m away(not sure if AP or APCR). Shot herpaderps a few inches sideways, into his lower glacis. No problem right? Nope. His back end was raised by the rubble which increased the angle on his lower glacis. 70° rule kicks in and shot ricochets into the dirt in front of him. Apparently emboldened he yolos and DPMs me down to 100HP before I finally finish him. I fail more shots like that by far than I do by firing HEAT at spaced armour.

Are you aware that his LFP was- under the conditions you described - at best (aka perfect 71 degrees) 235mm effective to HEAT, and around 260mm at 73 degrees?

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In which case HEAT might fail if the pen rolls low. Whereas AP/APCR fails every time because of the angle rule?

 

That wasn't my point in the example anyway. I'm simply saying I tend to fail more shots of APCR by ricochet, than I do of HEAT being absorbed. If this isn't your experience then good for you, but I still think HEAT is a plus.

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Even better then. APCR velocity really helps in some situations.

 

Small anecdote from yesterday that illustrates my point about randomness of AP/APCR:

 

Ensk in an IS3. Find myself pushing into one of the courtyards from the south and enemy LTTB yolos in at the same time, apparently ready to fight. I put a shot into him and he panics and backs up, but crashes into a wall with rubble at the base. Tank is roughly 45° to me so I aim for his front sprocket, and fire from about 50m away(not sure if AP or APCR). Shot herpaderps a few inches sideways, into his lower glacis. No problem right? Nope. His back end was raised by the rubble which increased the angle on his lower glacis. 70° rule kicks in and shot ricochets into the dirt in front of him. Apparently emboldened he yolos and DPMs me down to 100HP before I finally finish him. I fail more shots like that by far than I do by firing HEAT at spaced armour.

Sometimes the autobounce rule is utter nonsense.

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The 260 just looks insane to me. It's about as fast as an E-50, has a great gun that's MUCH superior to anything the IS-7/IS-4 are packing, with gun handling somewhere between the E5 and 113 (i.e good), the frontal hull is practically identical to the IS-7 (the UFP is only vulnerable to T10 TDs and highrolling T10 HEAT) with only an overmatch problem vs 150mm+ guns added.The turret is worse than the IS-7's, sure, but it's still great. Even the side of the turret is almost all 240-260mm! Turret roof is easy to overmatch if you can see it. This thing is really tall. It's hardly a problem for the IS-4, I'd imagine it's a nonissue for the 260.

 

The HP is really low and -5 gun dep is sort of uncomfortable, but for a reward tank this thing comes across as overpowered.

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Better gun stats, better pen (with standard APCR, dat shell velocity), more DPM and a hell of alot faster, while still having pretty decent armor...

 

I dont know, but id say 260 better in like 60-70% of situations.

 

Did they buff the DPM or something? IIRC, it still has sub-2K DPM.

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Hah, IS7 with E50 DPM and speed. What could go wrong.

 

Dunno... what bugs me is the LFP. IS-7 works around that by hulling down and facehugging. Since 260 can't, what else CAN it do to not get penned there all the time?

 

E50M can sort of dance between autobounce and autopen by angling, switching between 70 degree side and LFP. It has the hp/t and traverse to do it well if your reflexes are good enough. 260 can't.

260 turning 30 degrees provides a huge autopen zone that tracks you, so it's in your best interest to keep your armor frontally, which means the LFP is big and weak.

 

I guess you can try to sidescrape or reverse sidescrape, but you do show the slightly-deangled beak which is 230mm effective from such position. Better to do this than show the LFP, I guess.

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My biggest problem is that when encountering a tank that is angled 45degrees or something (or shows mostly side armor), and is at a medium distance, the HEAT will ridiculously struggle. Shooting any side armor with HEAT makes me extremely uncomfortable, and brawling with HEAT when I have to aim for LFPs and opponents keep trying to angle makes it even worse.  In the first case, the shot somehow magnetically get pulled to tracks around 50% of the time, doing nothing (or the worst case: wild IS-7 appears at 90 degrees side to me - CAN'T PEN lol). In the second case, if I miss the LFP by an inch, I hit the tracks and do nothing. It's very frustrating and I really hate HEAT because of that, the amount of missed damage is HUGE.

 

 

 

 

There are three distinctive ones (cupola, roof and gun mantlet which is 250mm flat at the "square" part - vs. HEAT too) and a possible shot trap at the mantlet. For a tank that's supposed to go up close and personal, that's quite a lot. If you don't go up close and personal, all that armor means nothing because LFP is autopen. If you hide the LFP at range, you still offer the turret weakspots and you only have -5 depression, at which point IS-7 offers better hulldown, and FV215b offers a better one too + better firepower (if we're after chasing gimmicky hulldown spots, because that's what left for -5 dep tanks).

 

In addition, the quite MASSIVE area where you end up damaged+detracked from angles exceeding 30 degrees mean that this tank absolutely can't risk fighting vs. multiple opponents, unlike IS-7.

 

THe mobility isn't "medium like". Sure it's better than IS-7's, but not that much. It's less mobile than T110E5, which is already a "slow medium". It does go 5 km/h faster than it in a straight line, of course, but don't expect rapid manouvers. It's not a med. You only go 4 km/h faster than IS-7. For the turning speed, Quickybaby made a direct comparisons of IS-7 turning 360 degrees along 260 and them doing a small race on Himmel and while the 260 is obviously more mobile, it's not really THAT much of a difference like people exaggerate.

 

260 has way worse gun handling than E5 and is less mobile, so for starters it's a worse "medium" than E5. The side armor is nice but the massive weakness to being damaged+tracked forces you to maintain fights within corridors everywhere else expect people to track+damage you). In corridors, your LFP is autopen, just like E5's, and you have only 2100 HP (least of HTs), so you kinda need to look for hulling down, and when hulled down, you're a worse IS-4 armor-wise, with a better gun handling, but inferior turret and HP. IS-4 only has the roof weakspot, you have much more. You also can't facehug, and expect people to aim at the numerous weakspots of the turret when you brawl with them at short ranges, where IS-7 is completely damage immune.

 

I'm not sold completely on 260. Having a decent gun is just a start; however, losing all the gimmicks that make IS-7 powerful is not quite good. If you want a fantastic gun on a fairly mobile platform, both 215b and E5 offer better alternatives.

 

 

60 kph top speed against 37 kph

15 kph top speed against 12 kph

19.57 hp/ton against 16.28 hp/ton

28 deg/s traverse against 30 deg/s traverse

Similar ground resistance values (E5 slightly better on medium terrain) 

 

As an overall package the Object 260's mobility is vastly superior to E5s. 

 

Ability to actually get across the battlefield the 260 has medium like mobility, traverse is poor yes, but it will be happily chugging along across most terrain at 40-50kph. That is vastly better than the E5 will ever do.

 

Want to dart in and get on the side of JagE100, 260 is much likely to do that than an E5.

 

As for the armour, well it has more weak spots than an IS7 but far less easy to hit ones than an E5, the roof/cupola/mantlet are all small targets to hit and you still have much more reliable all round armour than an E5.

 

The 260 armour layout to me looks similar to an IS6, it's vulnerable but moving/brawling will bounce a lot. 

 

To me it's a tier 10 IS6 with more mobility and a better gun, that's one hell of a tank. 

 

 

(BTW, just checked and in terms of power to weight, top speed and ground resistance it's not far off the E-50M, having again slightly worse medium terrain resistance, very similar hard/soft) 

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60 kph top speed against 37 kph

15 kph top speed against 12 kph

19.57 hp/ton against 16.28 hp/ton

28 deg/s traverse against 30 deg/s traverse

Similar ground resistance values (E5 slightly better on medium terrain) 

 

As an overall package the Object 260's mobility is vastly superior to E5s.

 

 

60 kph downhill. It has 42 km/h real speed on flat medium ground IIRC. Which is like I said 5 km/h more than E5, not 23 km/h. THe IS-7 goes 38 km/h on medium terrain if flat. There is not much of a difference here.

 

Downhill, IS-7 gets 60 km/h too so this doesn't really matter that much.

 

If you apply ground resistance, T110E5 has better hp/t on flat ground (divide hp/t by terrain resistance) which is the most important one. Slightly, but better. It's not "slightly better" - E5's medium ground resistance is vastly better. You end with more hp/t on the most popular terrain.

 

The most noticable thing will be reverse speed. Otherwise E5 has the edge.

 

Don't ignore the gun. 260 has decent turret bloom, but much worse movement bloom, with worse accuracy and quite a lot worse aim time. E5 has superior amunition type for close range snapshots where shell velocity isn't that important. Also better depression. E5 snapshots way better.

 

260 looks like some sort of a 2nd line sniper. Perhaps it's not a bad idea indeed to compare it with E50M.

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260 has better movement bloom than the E5. You must be looking at full speed bloom, which isn't really important because who the hell snapshots at 60kph in a heavy.

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260 has better movement bloom than the E5. You must be looking at full speed bloom, which isn't really important because who the hell snapshots at 60kph in a heavy.

It makes sense if it's soviet stronk HT. Remember old KV-1S vel soviet HT Patton.

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