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CraBeatOff

3 MoE and the 4k barrier

Question

Preface and Disclaimer:

 

I've done a lot of things in WoT, and I don't think what I am asking about here should be the goal for many or most players. However I've averaged 1,000 xpg across all classes (except SPGs of course) for the last 10k+ battles and can play every tank in my garage at unicum level (except the E-100). I can scout, flank, brawl, and I know when to play defensive, when to push and when to trade hp. So I think its safe to say that I've got the basics down 

 

The problem:

But what I cannot do is....rack up damage to get 3 MoEs or 4k WN8 (over a sustained period) even with sustained effort and the goal of doing so.

 

Now, as for 4k WN8, I realize that this is completely arbitrary and heavily tank based - its a terrible per tank metric, and many tanks will never make it to 4k*, but I am seeing 4k as the proxy for my 3 MoE goals because when I play a 4k session, thats when I see progress on spiking my MoE % towards 95%. However its also a limitation of my play historically, and so I want to grasp the playstyle of "damage whore" much like I've grasped other aspects of the game. 

 

I have gotten 3 MoE on 2 tanks thus far: the Super Pershing and the M46 Patton. The Super Pershing was very easy, I guess there's simply a ton of pubbies who never ever shoot APCR. And I actually have no idea how the M46 happened, I just take the M46 out sometimes when I want to roll people, and one day I had a big game and got 3 MoE. I never looked at my MoE % because I just assumed it was in the 88-92% territory like all the other tanks I really have tried to get 3 on. 

 

The goal:

I sit in 88-92% limbo in so many of my tanks, all my 10s except the RU meds and the E-100 are there. I'd like to get 3rd MoEs on a handful of them, or even just 2 marks on the RU meds.

 

Things I've done so far:

In talking with jacg about this, I've adopted two things that allow me to hang around the lower 90s more consistently...specifically being obsessive about track shots to get assisted damage and doing the "nearly suicide then stay alive" to make sure I'm getting good assisted damage off spotting but also around for clean-up. Both have helped me sit in the low 90s with more regularity. 

 

Questions:

Are there other strategies I am missing for damage whoring? Obviously I need to watch more Kewei replays and work on being the guy who doesn't get shot at. I've actually had some progress on that, although its hard to tell how much is from concious effort vs not having a -G- tag on. 

 

Are optics a must? Does the passive boost from that extra view help, even on the HTs like the E5 and IS-7?

 

Do i need to suck it up and just spam prem for a period of time to make the extra pens to push into 3 MoE territory?

 

What else might I be missing?

 

*M46 and E50 are over 4k, so are a handful of LTs

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Questions:

Are there other strategies I am missing for damage whoring? Obviously I need to watch more Kewei replays and work on being the guy who doesn't get shot at. I've actually had some progress on that, although its hard to tell how much is from concious effort vs not having a -G- tag on. 

 

Are optics a must? Does the passive boost from that extra view help, even on the HTs like the E5 and IS-7?

 

Do i need to suck it up and just spam prem for a period of time to make the extra pens to push into 3 MoE territory?

 

What else might I be missing?

 

*M46 and E50 are over 4k, so are a handful of LTs

 

Since my name has been mentioned I'll post some random things here that come to my mind. First off I'm gonna answer these specific questions though:

- Work more on not getting shot at. Don't push first, hiding behind teammates etc. If a map doesn't have a specific spot to farm damage from a distance (take for instance Sacred Valley or Hidden Village) you wanna be in the main brawl areas taking occasional shots without taking damage back. Most of the enemy team's health will be concentrated there, usually it's heavies that can be outmanoeuvred and you'll have teammates as meatshields. That way you can slowly gobble up damage and once you have a decisive advantage use your health to bully stuff and farm hard in the cleanup phase.

- Don't be reluctant with gold. The above point means you'll shoot heavy targets a lot. Just straight up load it if you expect to face something big, no need in bouncing the first two shots just because you're cheap.

- I run optics on all my meds but not on the heavies (vents on E5 and GLD on IS-7). They help with marks for sure but the main reason is that I have the feeling that optics give me such a large advantage in certain great damage farming places (ridges on sand river assault, karelia assault, erlenberg assault, prokh middle for instance) it outweighs the vent buffs.

 

random stuff:

- mods in this game are useless if you aim to improve. It's just visual gimmicks and you don't need a single one of them while most actually hold you back.

- find some twitch shooter to sharpen your aim. You don't want to take ages to lead fast moving targets. For me it's CSDM. You'll see how WoT will slow down for you.

- Play with balls. Just cause you took a JagdE100 hit once or twice in the north brawl corner of Sacred Valley (its just a good example) doesn't mean that's gonna happen all the time. Next time be there again and just don't get hit, bad luck happens.

- Don't give a fuck about arty. Unless they're platooned or there's like 3 of them ignore them until they're on your dick. If you're too afraid of one-shots that's gonna cost you a lot damage.

- Session management was really important to me. If you have one or two bad games in the tank you wanna go for it immediately quit, don't give tilt a chance.When I play M60 for instance and I'm below 3k damage twice I'm done with it and play something else. I tilt too hard to play through it.

 

If I could always follow through on all of this I'd be a way better player, too. Nobody's perfect. So gl with your endeavours :)

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Because this is last decimal place shit and not regular play/improvement:

Consider getting a clientside+serverside crosshair mod. That one shot per game that derps into the ground/wall will cost you enough to consider.

Being more liberal with sprem *might* also help, but from my experience you generally are willing to shoot gold in the correct situations often enough that I doubt it is a problem.

You might focus on mechanical skills, because sneaking in those trick snapshots to somebody's drivewheel make a big difference.

You could also study armor profiles and learn the tricky weakspots that people don't usually think about, like Tortoise roof or bouncing off the bottom of the mantle of the T32.

Modules are important too. Learning all the fuel tank and ammorack locations will help.

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For 3 marks I will basically mirror what x3na said and add that, if you already aren't, I find running food+optics helps for that last 5% to get as much spot dmg as you can and improve your dpm slightly.  You definitely want to play selfishly for that last mark as well, conserve your hitpoints in anyway possible, longer your alive = more dmg to get, so if that means letting your pubbies take all the hits and using them as shields....do so.  

 

As for the 4k barrier, it's just all about the consistency, that was the difference between me as a 3.5k and 4.5k player.  I still pretty much only platoon unless someone messages me, but I'm much more consistent in my solo play now, than I was before (take my e5 stats for example).  I would say tank selection obviously plays a role, but to an extent.  Arty and TDs are obviously horrible to try and maintain 4k, but definitely possible in tanks other than your typical padder tanks, for example, my e5 wn8 is ~4.5k as well.  You do want to play tanks that have the mobility to flex though, even though the is7 has a relatively low expected and is easy to get 4k wn8 in, it doesn't have the mobility for the late game clean up damage which plays a key role in maintaining it.

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So this topic succeeded. I was able to get 3 MoE on 2 tier X tanks after about 6 weeks of work. I netted the T110E5 and Bat25t, which I think speaks to mastering different styles and roles, with 1 standard fire HT and 1 auto loader LT/MT.

 

What was most important? First the stuff shared by the posters in this thread was invaluable. X3N4's answer really resonated with what I needed to change playstyle-wise. I became less cheap with premium rounds on the T110E5 (and still broke even, whereas before I'd usually run a net profit on my E5). Jacg noted that I really needed to work on tracking for damage, and I trained myself to look for the track for dmg pen before looking for the other pen options, particularly with softer tanks or fatties like E-100s. I gave no fucks about arty, instead trying to blaze through teams as quickly as possible - in retrospect, this made me LESS likely to be hit by arty, because instead of cautiously poking I was just challenging arty to RNG me. That isn't to say I would stay lit and in the open at all times, I of course used camo/draw whenever it was an option, but I would not decline to try for a good shot just because I might get artied. 

 

Secondly and perhaps most importantly was the Kewei wrote shortly after Garbad and myself made inquiries into this playstyle. During my endless inspections of service records I've noticed that while individuals vary in their DD:DR and armor use efficiency stats, the DR portion of DR is remarkably stable across unica. And so its shots that simply are never taken at you that give you windows to do more damage? Thats the only way I can grok it. And the result of looking at Kewei's guide and replays (as well as those of other top notch dmg farmers) is that you've got to make yourself NOT be a target to have the hp when you need it (or to simply trade for emply damage at the end of a lost match?). I've got no ethical issues with using pubs as meatshields, as pubs are generally incapable of using their armor, hp or doing the damage themselves (11 hits 2 pens good job tier 10 HT!)....as long as it doesn't impact winning.

 

So, how much less did I win? In the Batchat, I won virtually the same as my historical average of 66%. However almost all of my 200 or so Bat battles were solo, which is a marked change from my normal play conditions. I'm a social guy and I like to win, so I platoon. The T110E5, my wins dropped a little, about half a percent, over the 60 games it took me to bust from 91-92% to 95%. These were also primarily solo, and at 62%. 62% is my magical number in the E5 and T-62A, for as long as I've been tracking them, thats about what I can solo in tier 10. That makes the Bat at 67% higher by a goodly amount (and over almost 200 battles!), so that leads me to think I can win even more with a playstyle that balances damage farming with riskier tactical plays. 

 

Fun facts about the Bat, which I tracked the most during this experiment. Starting DPG 2950, ending DPG 3150, over approx 200 games (700 to 900 total) that means I was doing ~3850 direct damage on average per battle. Well well above my historical and at a higher than historical win-rate. I also notched over 60 high caliber medals during this period of games, meaning about 30% of my games I got a high caliber medal. Also well above my historical performances, I had less than 30 high calibers when I began!

 

The Bat really benefits from this playstyle, as having a healthy autoloader later in the game is very valuable. Plus, it delivers its damage in spikes, so by waiting for good opportunities, you really get an advantage for your team in the first or second clip. Clipping out an enemy medium in the first minute, or spiking 1200 into a TD who lights from camo really really helps your team. 

 

I consider this experiment a smashing success though, because I think that by layering my extensive "play tactical and to win" with some of the habits of "max that damage" that keep me from derping/dying has been yielding a higher than historical win/xp/credit return - based on my non MoE games during this period. 

 

Cheers WoTLabs and thanks for the good advice!

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Highest tier I've gotten triple MoEs for is 8, so this may or may not be relevant. For the WZ-132 assist damage accounted for 40-45% of the total, for the Pershing it was much less but still present (I'm guessing 15-20%), for the T32 virtually nonexistent. Oh there were occasional track shots, but mostly it was just me chewing my way through whatever was in front of me. I second the fire idea. Even if they have an auto extinguisher that's an extra bit of damage dealt on the first tick.

Because of the assist damage I found WN8 was actually a poor metric for MoE progress on the WZ-132. I had more than a few matches with little personal damage but thousands of spotting. It was much more useful on the T32.

I was working on the Maus, but put that on hold with the launch of missions. Perhaps I'll pick it up again.

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For me, at tier 10, assist damage accounts for 25-30% of my MoE. Be it from scouting or tracking dudes in front of TD's, I specifically seek out assist damage when MoE farming. It is also very helpful for xp/g.

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This might be a useful resource:

http://www.vbaddict.net/moe-marks-of-excellence 

 

I get what you're going through the Crab, I'm mentally at the same point. I think the flood gates will open with the first tier 10 3rd mark but it's just "knowing" what level of consistency is needed to get it that's hard. As for damage farming, it's simple as shit really, get into the high traffic zone & pump out damage in it for a really long time whilst taking little or none in return. It's down to damage ratio too so not receiving hits can also help, though this is a passive play that probably won't make a big bit of difference.

 

GL man. Hopefully X3N4 will weigh in with his ridiculous number (17) of MoEs...

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I worry that instead of using the actual 65/85/95 percentile values Wargaming is taking the average and fitting to their own arbitrary curve. This would make tier 10 and/or vehicles that don't scale very dynamically (Maus) much harder than expected.

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Number hunting is a dead end.  Besides, if you want to pad the 4k why not ask in guild chat?  They will give better answers than any of us can.

 

Nothing is dead if its what interests me. Plus many other skills have been attained before I got here. And I did ask in guild chat, but they're not so great at focusing. 

 

This might be a useful resource:

http://www.vbaddict.net/moe-marks-of-excellence 

 

I get what you're going through the Crab, I'm mentally at the same point. I think the flood gates will open with the first tier 10 3rd mark but it's just "knowing" what level of consistency is needed to get it that's hard. As for damage farming, it's simple as shit really, get into the high traffic zone & pump out damage in it for a really long time whilst taking little or none in return. It's down to damage ratio too so not receiving hits can also help, though this is a passive play that probably won't make a big bit of difference.

 

GL man. Hopefully X3N4 will weigh in with his ridiculous number (17) of MoEs...

 

Interestingly, looking at my own play, its not a large number of low output games thats holding me back, but not enough absurd (5k+) highs. You need a string of those to spike over 95% (for us mortals) and I don't get them often enough to string a few in close proximity. 

 

If he doesn't I'll poke him...thats absurd!

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This is only remotely related, but how the fuck are those %'s actually calculated? How on earth do you need to get such huge amounts of damage in 100 battles to get to 90%+? 90% of the players cannot even tie their own shoes. I find it hard to believe even 0.1% of the players in let's say the T-62A manage to average 4k damage, but you need that (or even more?) to get the 95% MoE? Someone please explain that to me.

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Number hunting is a dead end.  Besides, if you want to pad the 4k why not ask in guild chat?  They will give better answers than any of us can.

 

He's just scared of being bullied into taking tomhwk's spot :^)

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I worry that instead of using the actual 65/85/95 percentile values Wargaming is taking the average and fitting to their own arbitrary curve. This would make tier 10 and/or vehicles that don't scale very dynamically (Maus) much harder than expected.

They do.  It takes something like 5.5k dpg in the 907, because only goods play it and everyone pads.

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Questions:

Are there other strategies I am missing for damage whoring? Obviously I need to watch more Kewei replays and work on being the guy who doesn't get shot at. I've actually had some progress on that, although its hard to tell how much is from concious effort vs not having a -G- tag on. 

 

Are optics a must? Does the passive boost from that extra view help, even on the HTs like the E5 and IS-7?

 

Do i need to suck it up and just spam prem for a period of time to make the extra pens to push into 3 MoE territory?

 

 

For stratagies the basic front lining and just chewing through damage constantly seems to be the only way to do it, (You get assisted by being in the front and therefore lighting targets for your team), knowing where the battle will take place with the most health to chew through vs the best way to win the game can also help. 

 

Optics on the IS-7 helps A LOT for assisted damage as you can just jump a good 50-100m in front of your team and since you will be lit and shot at the enemy camo is reduced to a level that you can spot those pesky mediums/TDs at 400m+. 

 

I think Sprem spam will only really help with tanks that have APCR as gold or tanks with abysmal AP pen (See E100, although i hope you heatspam from that). As APCR is an upgrade from AP in almost every scenario (IIRC Strana did a spreadsheet and the normalization bonus almost never gives you more pen then the APCR pen).  

 

What i found was in order to get the last ~3-4% you need to basically have a great session where you just string together high damage games though. 

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I worry that instead of using the actual 65/85/95 percentile values Wargaming is taking the average and fitting to their own arbitrary curve. This would make tier 10 and/or vehicles that don't scale very dynamically (Maus) much harder than expected.

 

This is more or less confirmed, and one reason why marks are so vary hard to get on some vehicles (Conq GC). Their curve is basically nonsense, but they're historically innumerate. I realize this makes hunting marks an extra stupid waste of time...but I want 'em. 

Xen  the set points for 65/85/95 are all based off a WGTM imputation that has absolutely no basis in the reality of population damage output. 

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Xen  the set points for 65/85/95 are all based off a WGTM imputation that has absolutely no basis in the reality of population damage output. 

 

Thanks, that helps a lot.

 

1. I really need to stop teamkilling every other battle.

2. What exactly is "maximum damage by tracking or by spotting" in the iDAMAGE part supposed to mean? Does only the higher one of the two count rather than the total assisted damage in the battle?

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Thanks, that helps a lot.

 

1. I really need to stop teamkilling every other battle.

2. What exactly is "maximum damage by tracking or by spotting" in the iDAMAGE part supposed to mean? Does only the higher one of the two count rather than the total assisted damage in the battle?

 

1. Same, I actually didn't realize that hurt my MoE progress! +1 to you for the helpful tip, ha!

2. I don't know, not sure if anyone does. And given how Indiv Mission requirements are written it could mean anything. 

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I can't really give advice for higher tier tanks as I haven't made any efforts for those.

 

As for light tanks, I found that toning down the aggression and generally playing like a bitch is helpful.  Getting spotting damage is nice but you can't afford to lose any of your hit points in a light.  So only be at the front if you know you won't get damaged for it.  Otherwise, let pubbies take the lead, shoot at distracted targets, and NEVER be the only one lit.  I also focused on my positioning/awareness such that I can anticipate the need to run away.  Being able to stay alive to the end and farm that later game damage even on losses goes a long way to getting those marks.  Getting spotting damage also becomes easier later in the game once the number of tanks has been reduced and you know where everything is.

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Is there a database for the stats required to get the MoE?

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Is there a database for the stats required to get the MoE?

VBaddict generally has a *rough* estimate for your next mark on your tanks. As for an entire tank list, I don't know if the 95% value changes constantly (kind of like how Ace tanker requirements change) or if its just a set number. 

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Vbaddict will tell you the number you need to reach to get each mark or next mark only, I can't remember. The way the mark % is reached on a per game basis is your damage + assisted/spotted whichever is higher. Basically to get 3 marks any time you have shots on someone just pop their tracks and get damage in the same shot. Or just powerhouse the damage. When I got my E100 third mark I had averaged about 5kdpg for the last 100 battles.

 

I am curious if it only takes damage and 1 type of assisted though. What happens if you get 5k spotted then 2k track assist with 1k damage. Do the two different assisted types stack to give you your % or would it still take your 1k damage and 5k spotted

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Interestingly, looking at my own play, its not a large number of low output games thats holding me back, but not enough absurd (5k+) highs. You need a string of those to spike over 95% (for us mortals) and I don't get them often enough to string a few in close proximity. 

 

If he doesn't I'll poke him...thats absurd!

 

Yeah it's pretty sick, you just need to dedicate one night to it and channel your inner Kewei - maybe even 5 or 10 really concentrated games in a row where you're in your prime and stack them for a couple of days. I get what you mean with consistency, but I think I have 'enough'* high damage games, just don't have the self control to not go full tilt and not play like an absolute tomato - lost my T-62A's 94.8% with that :| :| :| :| 

 

*that being said, if I had enough, I'd have it already. And if I was good enough at damage farming, these would cancel out the derps.

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What got me trough my 3k (im sitting at 3,3k avg nowdays) barier on my t62a was watching Poltto. Afther watching replays go and try to find your sweetspot between chaisniping and yolonofucksgiven. Gl

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