Panzer9Supertiger

Imposter Syndrome; the reverse Dunning–Kruger effect, the roots of elitism, and sports discussion

251 posts in this topic

 

For those that say. "It's just common sense, if you did XYZ, or played ABC, et cetera... you wouldn't be such a shitter.". The game isn't that transparent, it's actually quite opaque and obtuse. Deliberately so. It's designed to suck money out of the pockets of chumps.

 

 

I make games.

 

The ways in which the game is set up to vaccum money from people is not obvious to most players.    Even many other game companies haven't really figured it out.    The core of it is a combination of:

 

(1) allowing even the worst players some manner of advancement

(2) giving them goals to work towards

(3) allowing them to pay for shortcuts to those goals (though usually not in a manner that is pay-to-win)

(4) giving players a large amount of things to blame poor performance on

 

The really obtuse parts of the game revolve around how to advance through it with a minimal expenditure of money and effort.   All of that happens outside of gameplay.

 

 

What to do moment to moment against a single opponent in-game is not hard to learn or particularly complicated until you bring vision mechanics into it, and then it's only difficult for some because WoT attracts a lot of players that are not used to applying math during a game.

 

It's hard to teach players who won't accept that the reason they did poorly in a particular circumstance is not just that they chose to do the wrong thing, or didn't really choose to do anything in particular at all.  They aren't failing because of obtuse mechanics, they're failing because the lack the proper mindset to even try.    Item #4 on that list makes this problem worse than in most other games.

 

You were a soldier or a Marine; you're coming into this with a mindset that skips right past the problem most poorly performing players are running into.    I'm almost certain that you've experienced the frustration of trying to teach someone new to load a weapon and clear malfunctions.   The problem isn't that the task is difficult to perform or understand, it's that people grossly underestimate the amount of focus required.

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The ways in which the game is set up to vaccum money from people is not obvious to most players.

 

I hate when people write stuff like that. You're not that naive, I bet the games you work on aren't 100% free, would you work for free? Maybe 15 year olds would get their parent's money vacuumed out of them, not even a 15 yo would blow, say, $200 in WoT without thinking provided that he earned his own money.

 

That is patronizing and demeaning to everyone that plays the game. Ultimately you're given the option to play for free, isn't that generous? No grinding 8 hours shooting red crosses bored out of your mind to buy a PLEX in Eve just to be able to keep playing, in WoT you just sit and play however much you want. As far as money suckers go there are much, much worse, ie candy crush type skinner boxes

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I make games.

 

The ways in which the game is set up to vaccum money from people is not obvious to most players.    Even many other game companies haven't really figured it out.    The core of it is a combination of:

 

(1) allowing even the worst players some manner of advancement

(2) giving them goals to work towards

(3) allowing them to pay for shortcuts to those goals (though usually not in a manner that is pay-to-win)

(4) giving players a large amount of things to blame poor performance on

 

The really obtuse parts of the game revolve around how to advance through it with a minimal expenditure of money and effort.   All of that happens outside of gameplay.

 

 

What to do moment to moment against a single opponent in-game is not hard to learn or particularly complicated until you bring vision mechanics into it, and then it's only difficult for some because WoT attracts a lot of players that are not used to applying math during a game.

 

It's hard to teach players who won't accept that the reason they did poorly in a particular circumstance is not just that they chose to do the wrong thing, or didn't really choose to do anything in particular at all.  They aren't failing because of obtuse mechanics, they're failing because the lack the proper mindset to even try.    Item #4 on that list makes this problem worse than in most other games.

 

You were a soldier or a Marine; you're coming into this with a mindset that skips right past the problem most poorly performing players are running into.    I'm almost certain that you've experienced the frustration of trying to teach someone new to load a weapon and clear malfunctions.   The problem isn't that the task is difficult to perform or understand, it's that people grossly underestimate the amount of focus required.

 

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. 

 

It explains a lot of the "Invisitank hackers! Has proofs inside." posts over on the official forums where the guy posts a replay where he beelines toward his preselected "good spot", camps there for 30 seconds or so, gets spotted by an LT, and then gets plinked to death by an E-25 with max camo crew/net/paint. Obviously, it must be cheating. Right? Right!? 

 

The vision mechanics are not terribly well explained in the tutorial. If it weren't for XVM, I would have no idea just how far I could actually detect an enemy tank. You have to go out of game, and often third party, to get a good idea of just how it works. It took me a little while to the mental math in how I need to position some of my tanks to take advantage of camo/vision mechanics. Camo values are a hidden stat that players aren't allowed to see. Logically, in the real world, a big hunk of metal like a Churchill is going to be a lot harder to hide than say... a Luchs. But because WG is so selective on what they choose to stay loyal to in terms of realism, it makes it difficult to determine which mechanics behave like they would in real life and which act more like science fiction. I feel that is what frustrates a lot of newer players to death, not so much that things are wonky, but that they are deliberately wonky and WG doesn't want you to know that they are wonky. (You vant stronk gold tonk, da? On sale. You buy for bank card sale, da? Is worse than regular tonk, but we not tell. You buy anyway, we throw in one day premium. It cost more than if you buy separate. You buy anyway, da? You buy or we kidnap family and put in gulag.)

 

The "Winners Mentality" isn't something that most people have inherently. It takes discipline and humility. When I was training at Ft. Knox we had a kid who was loading. I'll never forget this guy. This private was just the worst most disorganized soup sandwich looking motherfucker when he started basic. Gomer M.F. Pyle. He was constantly getting shit on by everyone. Then one day it just clicked for him. He started owning his mistakes. All it took was a short talk from someone that wasn't concerned about how much starch you put in your collar, or how much Kiwi he put on his boots, and more concerned with how he performed with his crew. The rest fell into line once he knew and accepted that failure is giving up, not making mistakes. Anyway we were out on FTX and I had this kid loading for me. He fucked up and broke his arm because he called "up" before his hand was out of the way of the breach block. Gunner heard "up" and he ripped the round downrange. I don't think I need to explain what happens when a recoilling 120mm cannon meets a human arm in the way. The medic slapped an airbrace on it, kid sitting like a stone statue on the side skirts. Didn't wince, didn't shed so much as a tear. Looked and me and said "Sergeant, I'm not letting us down, I wanna keep goin.". He then proceeded to show an unparalleled amount of testicular fortitude by refusing to go to the hospital and loaded rounds like a golden god the rest of the day. Some true high-speed low-drag performance. He certainly didn't come to the Army that way, the Army made him that way. It can be learned, I've seen it. It takes leaders and trainers that understand mentorship and the difference between someone who is frustrated or confused because they are inept, and someone who doesn't give a fuck. I didn't have to smoke him out on the deck until his arms hit muscle failure. I didn't have to chew him out at 120 decibels half an inch from his ear. I didn't have to make him do pointless grabass tasks, play shitfuck mindgames with him, or talk down to him like he was lower than snail shit in a French trench. Just sat him down, looked him in the eye, and human being to human being, explained that his platoon needed him, he was fucking up and needed to own it and learn.

 

And this kid wasn't the only case where I simply had to cut out the military bullshit act for two minutes and address a kid like a human being and tell them to simply accept their own mistakes. 

 

Same thing here. Unicums have a prime opportunity to take that mentoring role, but a minority latch on to a really negative mindset and stroke themselves off over who can come up with the most clever way to insult a new player. Yes it's frustrating dealing with idiots, but when I have to deal with it, it's far easier to simply connect with someone for half a minute and flip their viewpoint to one that will allow them the opportunity to succeed so I don't have to put up with the ineptitude anymore.  

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It takes leaders and trainers that understand mentorship and the difference between someone who is frustrated or confused because they are inept, and someone who doesn't give a fuck. I didn't have to smoke him out on the deck until his arms hit muscle failure. I didn't have to chew him out at 120 decibels half an inch from his ear. I didn't have to make him do pointless grabass tasks, play shitfuck mindgames with him, or talk down to him like he was lower than snail shit in a French trench. Just sat him down, looked him in the eye, and human being to human being, explained that his platoon needed him, he was fucking up and needed to own it and learn.

 

And this kid wasn't the only case where I simply had to cut out the military bullshit act for two minutes and address a kid like a human being and tell them to simply accept their own mistakes. 

 

Same thing here. Unicums have a prime opportunity to take that mentoring role, but a minority latch on to a really negative mindset and stroke themselves off over who can come up with the most clever way to insult a new player. Yes it's frustrating dealing with idiots, but when I have to deal with it, it's far easier to simply connect with someone for half a minute and flip their viewpoint to one that will allow them the opportunity to succeed so I don't have to put up with the ineptitude anymore.  

 

SO much this right here.  I'll be the first to admit I sometimes get really frustrated when someone on my team does completely the wrong thing.  However, most of the time I try to take a deep breath and ask/explain to them why they should do something else.  You know why?  Because yelling at people almost never fucking works, especially when you're just some random stranger who doesn't appear to give a fuck about them.  It also makes you a stupid elitist jerk.  And we don't need more of those.  If we'd all like to keep playing this game, we need to encourage new players to understand and enjoy the game.  Hard to do that when you're raging at them for something that's second-nature to you but non-obvious (and, with all due respect to Echelon) and not common sense to them.

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Same thing here. Unicums have a prime opportunity to take that mentoring role, but a minority latch on to a really negative mindset and stroke themselves off over who can come up with the most clever way to insult a new player. Yes it's frustrating dealing with idiots, but when I have to deal with it, it's far easier to simply connect with someone for half a minute and flip their viewpoint to one that will allow them the opportunity to succeed so I don't have to put up with the ineptitude anymore.  

It's because a majority of the elite here are nothing more than kids.  They have absolutely no idea how to mentor someone.  The ability to teach someone a skill is in itself a skill that most people do not possess. Especially those who come by said skill naturally.  Since it all these things are just obvious to them they think it should be obvious to everyone.  The reality is, as you've pointed out, skills have to be learned for the vast majority of people.

 

I practice and teach martial arts as a hobby, hopefully a paid hobby soon but I digress.  Over my years of practice I've seen natural athletes come in and be able to do most of the fundamentals without even thinking.  They can stand, move, punch and kick almost effortlessly from the get go.  I've also worked with people who I've had to spend entire lessons just getting them to get into a proper stance that made me wonder how they managed to walk in through the front door.  Some people you can say a few words to and they get it and are able to fix whatever it is that you see them doing wrong.  Others, it takes standing them in front of a mirror and physically putting them into the proper form so they can see it as well as feel it before it clicks for them.  The irony is that the people you have to work the hardest with are usually the ones who end up sticking around and who also end up being your best teachers and students.

 

The whole idea that this game is just so obvious and easy that everyone should get it or they're either not trying or idiots is laughable to me.

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I'm going dto dissect posts to the essence and reply to those.
 

For those that say. "It's just common sense, if you did XYZ, or played ABC, et cetera... you wouldn't be such a shitter.". The game isn't that transparent, it's actually quite opaque and obtuse. Deliberately so. It's designed to suck money out of the pockets of chumps. (Because gold tanks are better than regular tanks right? Right??) This person has developed a personality that doesn't sympathize well with others and fails to recognize or acknowledge that they too, were new to the game. These kinds of people make very poor mentors because they are more concerned with fitting in with the "elite" than genuinely providing assistance to those looking to get better. It's more about humiliating the ignorant newbie. The newbie is just looking to get rid of their unwanted ignorance. Much like the real military there are plenty of malignant egoists more concerned with pulling rank, power tripping, and hazing the newly enlisted with shitfuck mindgames than providing them with practical skills to keep themselves alive in combat. 
 
This forum is no different. 
 
It's just a matter of tuning out the drivel and focusing on what's practical and relevant.

 

 

Here's something you could do, as a Private or Spc, try telling a hall full of warrant officers and/or instructors that they're the reason your side lost the battle. I assure you it will end just as badly as a red or yellow telling a forum full of 60%ers that they don't know how to play.

 

 

It's hard to teach players who won't accept that the reason they did poorly in a particular circumstance is Cot just that they chose to do the wrong thing, or didn't really choose to do anything in particular at all.  They aren't failing because of obtuse mechanics, they're failing because the lack the proper mindset to even try.    Item #4 on that list makes this problem worse than in most other games.


Obtuse mechanics? We don't expect, we expect basic logic, if you have played 10,000 games and have not learned a basic thing about the mechanics, the problem is YOU, not the difficulty curve of the game. The best part is that these morons more often than not use their 10,000 games as proof of ability.
 

SO much this right here.  I'll be the first to admit I sometimes get really frustrated when someone on my team does completely the wrong thing.  However, most of the time I try to take a deep breath and ask/explain to them why they should do something else.  You know why?  Because yelling at people almost never fucking works, especially when you're just some random stranger who doesn't appear to give a fuck about them.  It also makes you a stupid elitist jerk.  And we don't need more of those.  If we'd all like to keep playing this game, we need to encourage new players to understand and enjoy the game.  Hard to do that when you're raging at them for something that's second-nature to you but non-obvious (and, with all due respect to Echelon) and not common sense to them.

 
I'll set you a challenge: Find me cases where a player asked nicely while not trying to humblebrag or say blatantly wrong things and was replied to rudely.

I'll tell you I could count them on under one hand.

99% of beatdowns when 6Xers come down on people is when OP is a baddie and saying he knows things, refuses to listen to advice, or even outright attacks the people who do give him advice. Here's a of one such smackdown
 

And this kid wasn't the only case where I simply had to cut out the military bullshit act for two minutes and address a kid like a human being and tell them to simply accept their own mistakes. 
 
Same thing here. Unicums have a prime opportunity to take that mentoring role, but a minority latch on to a really negative mindset and stroke themselves off over who can come up with the most clever way to insult a new player. Yes it's frustrating dealing with idiots, but when I have to deal with it, it's far easier to simply connect with someone for half a minute and flip their viewpoint to one that will allow them the opportunity to succeed so I don't have to put up with the ineptitude anymore.

 

Negative mindset? 

 

Go into a game, and tell me who you see blaming the team without actually having done anything most often? Answer: It's the baddies.
 

It's because a majority of the elite here are nothing more than kids.  They have absolutely no idea how to mentor someone.  The ability to teach someone a skill is in itself a skill that most people do not possess. Especially those who come by said skill naturally.  Since it all these things are just obvious to them they think it should be obvious to everyone.  The reality is, as you've pointed out, skills have to be learned for the vast majority of people.
 
I practice and teach martial arts as a hobby, hopefully a paid hobby soon but I digress.  Over my years of practice I've seen natural athletes come in and be able to do most of the fundamentals without even thinking.  They can stand, move, punch and kick almost effortlessly from the get go.  I've also worked with people who I've had to spend entire lessons just getting them to get into a proper stance that made me wonder how they managed to walk in through the front door.  Some people you can say a few words to and they get it and are able to fix whatever it is that you see them doing wrong.  Others, it takes standing them in front of a mirror and physically putting them into the proper form so they can see it as well as feel it before it clicks for them.  The irony is that the people you have to work the hardest with are usually the ones who end up sticking around and who also end up being your best teachers and students.
 
The whole idea that this game is just so obvious and easy that everyone should get it or they're either not trying or idiots is laughable to me.

 
Obvious and easy? We're not expecting you to know how to play your light as a stealth tank or how to make a shot on a lower plate on a moving tank at 500 meters, we're just expecting basic common sense.

 

As I've used as an example, two beats one holds true almost everywhere in any field of work, yet all too often people insist on fighting 2v1.

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I'll set you a challenge: Find me cases where a player asked nicely while not trying to humblebrag or say blatantly wrong things and was replied to rudely.

I'll tell you I could count them on under one hand.

99% of beatdowns when 6Xers come down on people is when OP is a baddie and saying he knows things, refuses to listen to advice, or even outright attacks the people who do give him advice. Here's a of one such smackdown

 

The highlighted, underlined and italicized text is the exact encapsulation of the problem.  You know that what they say is blatantly wrong - they don't.

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The highlighted, underlined and italicized text is the exact encapsulation of the problem. You know that what they say is blatantly wrong - they don't.

Then they should be receptive of the advice, or you know, say like "I think XXX is YYY because ZZZ", instead they don't even give any supporting evidence other than anecdotes. Instead on wotlabs we've seen far too many cases of "I'm right and i'm going to insist on my own way in the face of an overwhelming consensus from the 6X crowd and zero facts in my favor".

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Same thing here. Unicums have a prime opportunity to take that mentoring role, but a minority latch on to a really negative mindset and stroke themselves off over who can come up with the most clever way to insult a new player. Yes it's frustrating dealing with idiots, but when I have to deal with it, it's far easier to simply connect with someone for half a minute and flip their viewpoint to one that will allow them the opportunity to succeed so I don't have to put up with the ineptitude anymore.  

 

I see what you mean, I just haven't really seen a good way to encourage people to want to do better.  The game is structured to make them think they don't have to in the first place.

 

 

 

I hate when people write stuff like that. You're not that naive, I bet the games you work on aren't 100% free, would you work for free? Maybe 15 year olds would get their parent's money vacuumed out of them, not even a 15 yo would blow, say, $200 in WoT without thinking provided that he earned his own money.

 

That is patronizing and demeaning to everyone that plays the game. Ultimately you're given the option to play for free, isn't that generous? No grinding 8 hours shooting red crosses bored out of your mind to buy a PLEX in Eve just to be able to keep playing, in WoT you just sit and play however much you want. As far as money suckers go there are much, much worse, ie candy crush type skinner boxes

 

 

I didn't mean it to be insulting or demeaning.   Even much of the game industry doesn't understand how and why WG is raking in hundreds of millions.   Making things opaque for the sake of making them opaque is counterproductive and they know it.  (this is why they're going through the hassle of switching from a draw box to a draw circle, by the way)

 

I'll give an example; people are talking about the possible future tier 10 gold/silver shell penetration nerfs in terms of WG wanting to make money.  Sure, they want to make money - but the point isn't to make people spend money so they can afford some more gold shells.    The point is to do something about players that don't feel much credit pressure - older players, successful players, and those already sitting on lots of premium tanks.   Players who have everything handed to them on a platter get bored and quit.

 

People won't pay if they don't think it's a good value; people have to feel that they can keep using whatever it is they get any time they want, for as long as they want.   To do this they have to retain enough players with a good range of tanks to keep the MM full and running smoothly.  Once the players are playing, other game mechanics take care of making sure they actually use a variety of tanks.    The money made as a result of people spending more on ammo is a drop in the bucket compared to the people who drop $500 on premium tanks and a $200 on premium time over a couple of years.  

 

You can compare this to how Gaijin handles War Thunder - Gaijin can't Free-to-Play their way out of a wet paper bag.

 

WoT has a pretty good model.  You get what you pay for.   And you're likely to be able to use it for quite a while yet - I always find it amusing when people speculate about WG having "money problems" because of something they've done; they've made so much money that they could keep the game up and running for a couple of decades with nobody paying a cent at this point.

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Then they should be receptive of the advice, or you know, say like "I think XXX is YYY because ZZZ", instead they don't even give any supporting evidence other than anecdotes. Instead on wotlabs we've seen far too many cases of "I'm right and i'm going to insist on my own way in the face of an overwhelming consensus from the 6X crowd and zero facts in my favor".

You really don't understand people do you?

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You really don't understand people do you?

When the first words out of someone who doesn't know what to do is to blame his tools and insist his tank is broken or his team is failing at their job, a rude flaming is not unwarranted..

More often than not, it plays out with the asker going along the lines of "Well your advice is dead wrong", "well that's not how the tank should be played, and the best one I've heard so far) "I know how this tank is played I have a high 54% WR so don't tell me what to do".

I doubt there has been a single instance of a player simply asking "How do I play tank X?" and getting bashed for it, actually no, I'm dead sure it's never happened.

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Obvious and easy? We're not expecting you to know how to play your light as a stealth tank or how to make a shot on a lower plate on a moving tank at 500 meters, we're just expecting basic common sense.

This is precisely my point.  What you see as basic common sense is not so basic or common.  What you're not thinking about is the personal experience or biases that people bring to this game.  Taking your own example, and let's get specific.  One of the biggest surprises to many players is that the Tiger tank isn't the indestructible monster that the recall from history.  How'd they find this out? Oh, by driving their tank out in front of multiple enemies thinking they were just going to own people only to get repeatedly tracked, engine knocked out and then obliterated.  The first time was just bad luck though and the people were possibly cheating so we'll try it again, and again and again because...reasons.  The point is you're taking your understanding and bias about a video game and equating how it applies to real life.  You then call this common sense because it all seems self evident to you.  Others are taking their understanding and bias about real life and trying to apply it to a video game.  Both view points are inherently flawed.

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One of the hardest things about this game-for me-was vision mechanics. The problem is that it is never explained and it is highly unintuitive. Is there a good reason that view range is capped at 445m? Not really (except game performance, but why 445m?). When someone tells you, its not that hard to understand. Applying that knowledge in-game is another step entirely but that key knowledge allows you to take that step.

 

This is a recurring theme for WoT in general. Another example of this is the idea that effective Armour thickness increases as the angle of incidence decreases. When someone explains it, its blindingly obvious why you should angle your tank if you can. But core knowledge about the game mechanics you can abuse to get the best results is pretty thin on the ground for a new WoT player, unless they use outside sources. Bad players are not necessarily bad because they are stupid or lazy, they might have common sense but in WoT, the rules are different. These rules are often poorly explained, which results in prevalence of 'bads', at least in my opinion.   

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This is precisely my point.  What you see as basic common sense is not so basic or common.  What you're not thinking about is the personal experience or biases that people bring to this game.  Taking your own example, and let's get specific.  One of the biggest surprises to many players is that the Tiger tank isn't the indestructible monster that the recall from history.  How'd they find this out? Oh, by driving their tank out in front of multiple enemies thinking they were just going to own people only to get repeatedly tracked, engine knocked out and then obliterated.  The first time was just bad luck though and the people were possibly cheating so we'll try it again, and again and again because...reasons.  The point is you're taking your understanding and bias about a video game and equating how it applies to real life.  You then call this common sense because it all seems self evident to you.  Others are taking their understanding and bias about real life and trying to apply it to a video game.  Both view points are inherently flawed.

 

Biggest surprise? The Tiger in the game WOULD curbstomp the tanks it was historically put up against (think T-34 and M4 Shermans), what happens in game is that you have all these baddies who want to fanwank over the glorious Nazi Death Box and fail to realize that our dear PzKpfw VI Tiger Instant Win Machine is thrown up against tanks that were historically designed with the specific purpose of killing the Tiger.

That's people getting their history wrong, not history buffs expecting what SHOULD happen historically and being cheated out of it (If they were such history buffs, the would have realized that tanks the Tiger was known to eat up and the tanksfaced by the Tiger in game couldn't be any different).

And with regard to common sense, you've still failed to address the most basic example of 2v1, I don't see ANY reason a player would not know from day one that poking against equal two tanks is generally a very bad idea.

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And with regard to common sense, you've still failed to address the most basic example of 2v1, I don't see ANY reason a player would not know from day one that poking against equal two tanks is generally a very bad idea.

 

Because even at 5k games and playing tier 9s I still had NO clue what the fuck was going on in the game and did all the time?

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And with regard to common sense, you've still failed to address the most basic example of 2v1, I don't see ANY reason a player would not know from day one that poking against equal two tanks is generally a very bad idea.

Just because you don't see any reasons doesn't mean there aren't any.  How do you define equal? Same tier? Same tank class?  You're still making assumptions about what is common knowledge.

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And with regard to common sense, you've still failed to address the most basic example of 2v1, I don't see ANY reason a player would not know from day one that poking against equal two tanks is generally a very bad idea.

 

How about because that is a game mechanic without real-world application for most people?

Heck, even negotiators have to be trained not to get into a 2v1 situation.  

 

I learned that playing starcraft, rather than from my real-world experience.  

 

In modern tank warfare, the coordination between allied tanks is to make sure that none of them shoot at the same targets, since each hit causes a kill, rather than teaming up against the same target.

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 And with regard to common sense, you've still failed to address the most basic example of 2v1, I don't see ANY reason a player would not know from day one that poking against equal two tanks is generally a very bad idea.

 

I agree to the limited extent that poking against two tanks that you know are equal in "power" to your own and that you know are there and looking for you is "common sense."  However, to describe the problem this way is also to perfectly describe why it often isn't "common sense."  Two examples come readily to mind.

 

The first is related to the points upthread about the Tiger - I don't think you can fairly describe as "common sense" knowing that the Tiger (given the tiers and opponents it has to fight) generally has to be played in a manner radically different from its historical role.  You or I know that even as top tier, depending on the TD/HT composition of the other team you might need to play extremely conservatively as the Tiger, despite its nominal "heavy tank" designation.  But that is knowledge gained from experience in many games and with many tanks, and from reading lots on information here and on the Wiki.  I don't think you can fairly describe that as "common sense" and given the superficial historical knowledge most people would bring with them, in some ways it is the precise opposite of common sense.

 

The second is that because of a lack of map knowledge and/or incomplete knowledge of how the spotting mechanics work, the new player does not understand that the position he is taking is extremely likely to be exposing himself to at least a 2v1 situation against tanks that are looking for someone to do exactly what he is about to do.  Again, you or I understand that, based on the other team's composition and which tanks are spotted and not spotted, poking in a particular spot likely means taking four shells to the face from unspotted TDs.  How would the new player know that?

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And with regard to common sense, you've still failed to address the most basic example of 2v1, I don't see ANY reason a player would not know from day one that poking against equal two tanks is generally a very bad idea.

 

OF COURSE they know it is disadvantageous to engage 2v1.  But learning that you can decline an engagement and run away is a high-level concept that purples have to explain to greens and blues repeatedly before it sinks in.  Until then, if they see a tank, they think they have to fight that tank, even at a disadvantage.

 

 

Then they should be receptive of the advice, or you know, say like "I think XXX is YYY because ZZZ", instead they don't even give any supporting evidence other than anecdotes. Instead on wotlabs we've seen far too many cases of "I'm right and i'm going to insist on my own way in the face of an overwhelming consensus from the 6X crowd and zero facts in my favor".

 

Am I the only one that sees the irony here?   =D   You keep saying that it's common sense and multiple people keep explaining to you why it isn't.

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Echelon -

 

I can say with confidence that I can shit on your face with my level of knowledge in some areas where I could state things that are "common sense". And that you could do the same to me.

 

Common sense for someone with experience in said field?  Yes. Absolutely.  Common sense for some random layperson? Absolutely not.

 

I shall share an anecdote with you:

I have been at my current job for over ten years. In that time I went from someone that was totally green and was given little training or guidance, to being the senior person in my department who is the go-to guy for what is frankly too much.  Today, I can diagnose complicated problems with very non-obvious causes in minutes or even seconds - which may stump some of my colleagues for hours or even days.  There are things to me that are "common sense" that nobody else seems to understand.  My "record", if you will, is diagnosing a problem that nobody else could figure out in 4 days in ~30 seconds, and fixing it in ~2 minutes.

The reason they are "common sense" is because I've had the chance and experience to put two and two together. I know that X causes Y.  And sometimes I'm even good enough to see a problem and think out of the box for a solution (As I was in my example above, wherein two not obviously related tests were being performed at the same time, and one of them was failing in a way that had no obvious connection to the two tests given the way they worked).  If I explained the problem and solution in my example, you'd see the higher reasoning, but also think that it was relatively easy to solve because it is being explained to you... but nobody else could come up with the answer.  And don't think I'm bragging. I'm very frequently humbled by issues I deal with, and my co-workers have come to a solution I could not arrive at in many circumstances, too.

 

In the time I have had my job, I have learned MANY hard lessons.  

 

And one of those lessons is one that I feel is extremely important in life:

 

Understand that every single bit of higher order knowledge you have about a subject is built upon a base.  If you do not build the proper base for the next step, then you will not FULLY understand the reasoning behind something. If you can't fully understand the logic - and everything that preceeds that, you can't "breathe" the knowledge as you would breathe air.

 

Having a level of knowledge that makes something entirely effortless makes it feel like common sense. It just is, after all!

 

Unfortunately, we humans have a hard time seeing the big picture.  The big picture is that when we grok something, it feels natural to know what you know. If it feels natural to know what you know, is it not common sense?

 

Echelon is exemplifying the exact topic at hand here.  He is falling to realize just how far he has come.  WoT is a pretty damn complicated game that is mired in obfuscation.  For average schmucks, there's so much to weed through that the mechanisms of the game in addition to the gameplay itself, that if you can consider that the average person does not really look anything up at all, they are going to have a very difficult time even understanding the basics.

 

Average is average. It's in part the raw player skill attracted by a free to play game, in part, the ridiculously obfuscated rules of the game, the general lack of competitive nature of the game compared with, say, LoL, where it's in the culture of the main player base to play the game to the best of their abilities, and the relative difficulty in learning about the game.  All of these factors add up to make a game environment where a large proportion of the players are ignorant but not given obvious avenues of improvement, combined with a culture that is less competitive than others.

 

So, Echelon, there's no such thing as common sense in a game, unless you are going to define "common sense" levels of play as an account with a couple tier tens and several hundred tier ten battles under their belt as a baseline for experience that could create rules of "common sense".

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I've thought this for quite a while about tanks: It takes a fuck load of effort/work to understand how to play at the "top" levels of this game but once you do... It feels like common sense. Different levels of clarity for people at different levels of ability.

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