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Guardian54

Need help with 704 in current maps/meta

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The search function for these forums don't work, because when I typed "704" I got NOTHING

 

Therefore, here we go.

 

A couple patches ago I was annoyed by 704s in my mediums due to super-trollish armour and apparently really fast turning speeds. Now I own one, and, well...

 

I have played every single Tier 9 TD except the JT, in, if I recall correctly for the first few, this order:

SU-122-54: 160, 54.37%, back around the time Severogorsk got changed up

T95: 226, 60.62%, I played this mostly during the early 2014 E3 ontrack, ergo the large number of matches instead of slow daily doubles.

T30: 119, 58.82%

Tortoise: 126, 56.35%

Foch: 24, 62.5% (doing dailies on x3/x5 weekends only, if that)

WT Pz 4: 39, 46.15% (still short 128, same policy as Foch)

704: 53, 43.4% (mad grind for the 268 during ontrack right now)

 

Now, I do not particularly enjoy wasting my time on negative-statpadding, I know I'm only at about 2K DPG in it but there are a few traits I find a bit... off about the 704 in current meta (did the traverse rate get nerfed in the last couple patches?):

 

Mobility: Bad, Top speed is serviceable, acceleration is HORRID, and I swear this thing turns slower than my T95 used to and is worse at scraping an enemy off its side using solid cover. It does NOT in fact flex any better than the Tortoise did for me due to that ridiculous functional traverse rate... I think I got spoiled by SU-122-54 and Foch. It also reverses far, far too slowly for the amount of armour and gun depression it has.

 

Firepower: Average, You WILL end up trading health every single time if you are within 350m of the enemy. The DPM is hardly Jesus-like either (see Tort and maybe JT). Gun handling is poor enough that trying to pop and shoot means trading health. The gun arcs also feel horrible compared to T95, tort, and let's not get into turrets. And before anyone says something about learning to aim, I do know how to aim, you don't get my stats in Soviet Tier 9 meds with pure 201 AP solopub without learning how to aim.

 

Protection: Average, mildly trollish frontal profile, Soviet bullshit mantlet and sidescraping-capable, but penned reliably by anyone who aims is not snap-shooting, or is shooting 300+ pen APCR. Camo is almost useless these days unless you are on Prokhorovka, if you fire you WILL be spotted if anyone is within 440m of you.

 

So these factors add up to one conclusion in terms of how to use it: bushwanker, because it's a T95 that gave up armour and gun handling for 2% more camo and not enough mobility to actually make a difference. In other words, in a T95, you get up to where the heavies are fighting, and then you can fire within a second of loading each round instead of this thing's need to manoeuvre with cover due to lack of armour, and then slowly aiming. That means functionally the same damage output per game, if not more for the T95 due to less HP trading. It feels more ponderous than my SU-100Y, but that might be due to differences in battle tiers.

 

I do not enjoy bushwanking, and I do not approve of damage farming at the end and getting zerged to a loss because the flank failed, because in the current maps it's almost comically improbable that you can both stay hidden and cover a flank adequately at the same time, due to utter lack of lanes of fire. The result was that I'm up at the front line trading health to actually do damage and get XP. If this had a turret it would be fine with that hull (ahem T30), but as is... I need some advice that is text, not replays.

 

I met some guys in game today who said they sold their 704s for SU-122-54s due to the maps changing to discourage sniping and to beat on inflexible tanks... does anyone else get the feeling the 704 is inflexible?

 

If you're going to argue the 704 is good in current meta, please take time to explain WHY, or more like WHERE.

 

Thanks for any helpful advice.

 

EDIT: PS: The only reason I'm mad grinding this for the 268 is an obsession with getting Tier 10s on sale and only on sale, coupled with an impression that clans always prefer members to have as many tier 10s as possible to maximize flexibility (i.e. in the unlikely event the 268 gets buffed so it has some level of usability over the E3 I already have).

 

Some replays at start of second page from a midday of RAEGMODE gaming. I get the feeling I'd do better if I didn't hate every moment behind that thing's wheel and stopped seeing red everywhere (I suspect much of my teams would still be red even if I calmed down), but I cannot be bothered with that. Fruit fly research papers are more amusing to write than the 704 is to play in its current state of 360m vision.

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Thanks for any helpful advice.

 

I can't help you with the tank, but I can help you with the search.

 

The forum search is broken for this forum software, but there is a way to use google to search a site:

 

site:wotlabs.net 704

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I do not enjoy bushwanking, and I do not approve of damage farming at the end and getting zerged to a loss because the flank failed, because in the current maps it's almost comically improbable that you can both stay hidden and cover a flank adequately at the same time, due to utter lack of lanes of fire. The result was that I'm up at the front line trading health to actually do damage and get XP. If this had a turret it would be fine with that hull (ahem T30), but as is... I need some advice that is text, not replays.

It you don't enjoy bushwanking, it's really probably not the tank for you.  Its lack of workable armor pretty much necessitates that you play it from afar.  If you feel the need to get up close and personal with it (i.e., Himmelsdorf or Ensk), play as a second-line support gun, follow your heavies around, and count enemy reloads.  You'll get the most bang for your buck by laying back and camping bushes, though.

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It you don't enjoy bushwanking, it's really probably not the tank for you.  Its lack of workable armor pretty much necessitates that you play it from afar.  If you feel the need to get up close and personal with it (i.e., Himmelsdorf or Ensk), play as a second-line support gun, follow your heavies around, and count enemy reloads.  You'll get the most bang for your buck by laying back and camping bushes, though.

 

A_Chodeful's 704 analysis is nice, but the 704 no longer has the vision advantage over, well, basically anything. Even with binocs it is not able to reliably get a shot off before being lit up due to having to turn the hull and bleed some camo most of the time when you need to shoot. You also should not even THINK to snipe E3 LFPs anymore with the 9.6 (IIRC) acc nerf.

 

And that's with a 80% overall camo crew btw.

 

These days, if you can shoot the enemy from afar, they've probably already passed the breaking point of the map, so... :/ Well looks like I'll just deflate my win rate so that XVM-sniper wannabes stop shooting me first (it's pathetically often that I seem to be the top skill on my team)

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What's wrong with trading hp every shot if it's 750 for 400? You can do that FOUR times and you'll be at unicum damages. I play this tank the same way I play every tank, find the main flank, go there and smash/destroy. Yeah it's more difficult to find ways to trade effectively because of the mobility, but I think relegating yourself to bush kemping will severely limit your impact on the game. Don't be afraid to take some damages if you know you'll come out ahead, people seriously dislike getting whacked for 750 early in the game, the psychological impact it has on a flank is prob even more important than the damage :D

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I sold mine as soon as it was up for the nerf bat with all the other TDs, I thought it would be a keeper, but the meta shifted greatly in the 4 months I took off from the game, and it was a rarity to find a map where you are actually at an advantage. Forever retired with 3.8k dpg <3

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I sold mine as soon as it was up for the nerf bat with all the other TDs, I thought it would be a keeper, but the meta shifted greatly in the 4 months I took off from the game, and it was a rarity to find a map where you are actually at an advantage. Forever retired with 3.8k dpg <3

 

2515 -  Eww, I thought I would've done better then that.

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i think i have around 3.1k dpg, but i have not played mine in several months... maps just arent what they used to be.

 

I unlocked the 268 nearly a year ago but did not buy it.

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I unlocked the 268 nearly a year ago but did not buy it.

 

And never buy it.  The 268 is an utter piece of shit like none other.  Great, you can shoot for 750, but you will probably get absolutely melted soon after.  Provided you actually hit something with your cancerous gun traverse and shell velocity.

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And never buy it.  The 268 is an utter piece of shit like none other.  Great, you can shoot for 750, but you will probably get absolutely melted soon after.  Provided you actually hit something with your cancerous gun traverse and shell velocity.

 

It use to be so good too. But yeah, it's practically made of paper.

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What's wrong with trading hp every shot if it's 750 for 400? You can do that FOUR times and you'll be at unicum damages. I play this tank the same way I play every tank, find the main flank, go there and smash/destroy. Yeah it's more difficult to find ways to trade effectively because of the mobility, but I think relegating yourself to bush kemping will severely limit your impact on the game. Don't be afraid to take some damages if you know you'll come out ahead, people seriously dislike getting whacked for 750 early in the game, the psychological impact it has on a flank is prob even more important than the damage :D

 

What's wrong with the shot trading is that you are driving a trollcannon while he has an E5 laser (even an M103 would do) which you cannot pen (or even hit) easily without aiming, a LOT. The bumpiness of maps lately does not help, at all.... Well it does help reduce RusskiTDbias, but it makes the IS line even more bullshit.

 

I sold mine as soon as it was up for the nerf bat with all the other TDs, I thought it would be a keeper, but the meta shifted greatly in the 4 months I took off from the game, and it was a rarity to find a map where you are actually at an advantage. Forever retired with 3.8k dpg <3

 

Congratulations on getting out while the going was good.

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A_Chodeful's 704 analysis is nice, but the 704 no longer has the vision advantage over, well, basically anything. Even with binocs it is not able to reliably get a shot off before being lit up due to having to turn the hull and bleed some camo most of the time when you need to shoot. You also should not even THINK to snipe E3 LFPs anymore with the 9.6 (IIRC) acc nerf.

 

And that's with a 80% overall camo crew btw.

 

 

/Agreed. My 704 has my best crew (only keeper for entire line / have ground out the 268 / have used them in the SU-122-44) so I have tons of crew skills and run it w/ food. Used to be able to spot and kill all my own targets (ie: move up and outspot campers in prok) but I find the gun is so derpy since 9.6 (small sample sizes though). Not the OP machine it used to be IMHO. Still love using it has a flanking assault tank but that's situational.

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I've done pretty well in the 704. I'm not a fantastic player, so my damage output is pedestrian (23xx or something), but I've won over 70%, probably of which less than half was platooned. Yes, there's some RNG there, but 70% + at ~150 battles is a strong indicator.

 

I play it in the front - only moderately aggressively.  I don't try to take a corner an IS-7 would sit on, but rather go somewhere that I can bully medium tanks with some support.  For example, even without the effective gun depression, I'll push the 1/2 line with mediums on Serene Coast.  When the enemy tanks spot me, they don't poke nearly as much, which allows my teams' tanks to use the hills more frequently.  And if they do decide to crest, RIP.

 

If I'm stuck in a tough situation, I've often found that even 1v2, a lot of pubbies won't roll over me because they are afraid of the alpha.  So I'll sit there, cover the corner, blap and track anyone that goes around the corner - I've won many 2v1s like this.  If there's a big camping TD behind you that can hit them when they come around, all the better.

 

I've scouted in the 704 before the nerf, in the mid-late game.  Its short profile and superb camo can outspot a lot of camping TDs that might not fit behind bushes so well.

 

The 704 is a great bully. It only needs a little bit of support. It is at its best utilizing its alpha and DPM, but it is also very effective in affecting the battle without firing a shot, because it's flexible enough to run at or near the front line, if you're careful and appropriately aggressive.  It's quick enough that a fast heavy won't be able to circle you, it's bouncy enough that you will get some bounces, and it's so scary to the other team that your gun is as effective a deterrent as it is when blasting enemy tanks.

 

The 704 is a great partner to a damaged tank.  Get in front of them - they can probably still shoot over you, you can protect them, and - the best part - people will often be unwilling to take the 704 hit when they perhaps wouldn't mind getting double tapped by T54s to kill one of them.  

 

I've done it situationally with the T30 too.  If you can freeze 3 tanks with your 1 tank, you are massively increasing your teams' chance to win.

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I've done pretty well in the 704. I'm not a fantastic player, so my damage output is pedestrian (23xx or something), but I've won over 70%, probably of which less than half was platooned. Yes, there's some RNG there, but 70% + at ~150 battles is a strong indicator.

 

I play it in the front - only moderately aggressively.  I don't try to take a corner an IS-7 would sit on, but rather go somewhere that I can bully medium tanks with some support.  For example, even without the effective gun depression, I'll push the 1/2 line with mediums on Serene Coast.  When the enemy tanks spot me, they don't poke nearly as much, which allows my teams' tanks to use the hills more frequently.  And if they do decide to crest, RIP.

 

If I'm stuck in a tough situation, I've often found that even 1v2, a lot of pubbies won't roll over me because they are afraid of the alpha.  So I'll sit there, cover the corner, blap and track anyone that goes around the corner - I've won many 2v1s like this.  If there's a big camping TD behind you that can hit them when they come around, all the better.

 

I've scouted in the 704 before the nerf, in the mid-late game.  Its short profile and superb camo can outspot a lot of camping TDs that might not fit behind bushes so well.

 

The 704 is a great bully. It only needs a little bit of support. It is at its best utilizing its alpha and DPM, but it is also very effective in affecting the battle without firing a shot, because it's flexible enough to run at or near the front line, if you're careful and appropriately aggressive.  It's quick enough that a fast heavy won't be able to circle you, it's bouncy enough that you will get some bounces, and it's so scary to the other team that your gun is as effective a deterrent as it is when blasting enemy tanks.

 

You ever tried it post-nerf?

 

No one acts scared of that gun in pubs (either too dumb or turret armour/gun handling versus your useless gun arc and easy to pen parts), and anyone who has a brain seems to drive hard-headed vehicles these days.

 

You (exaggeration alert) almost need to have the front of your gun stuck inside someone to have any reliability these days. And at present it is so mobile a Maus would be able to keep up with you stuck on your side, and scraping them off basically does not work due to the horrid reverse acceleration being countered by the friction.

 

The abomination is also so tall a JP2 can shoot you to death face to face. The only vehicle I KNOW it can hold off is another 704 when facehugging, and that's because their guns are the same height and neither can outmanoeuvre the other, so whoever pays more attention to when they reload can win if they started firing at different times, by using the mantlet to jam the enemy's shot.

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Hyperbole much?

 

That one part was, and has now been denoted as such. However, this next part is not:

 

I feel less useless driving a stock MT-25 in a Tier 9 match than an object 704, because the 704 s a top tier is expected to carry, which is not (risky and usually useless farming at the end aside) doable in a blind, armor-less (reliability), turret-less, slow abomination, while the MT-25 is just driving around for the lols and has no burdens upon it.

 

The 704 does not even have gun depression.

 

The vision nerf combined with the shot spread nerf was probably what killed it, tbh. If you think it's still even remotely good, take it, and go for a spin on Live Oaks, Overlord, or even Stalingrad. The latter is one of the few maps where it's even vaguely workable these days.

 

Let's see some maps...

Mines is completely team dependent and you either get 0 damage win or get overrun for a loss. Ruinberg... have fun playing peek-a-boom in the village with a SLUG if you want to contribute without needing to be losing to actually do anything. Malinovka's just as bad if not worse since you don't have armour above your gun's level for anyone who has a brain i.e. can aim, and Malinovka is all about the hill while Ruinberg at least doesn't demand gun depression much, and you can shoot hulls. Mountain Pass... has no space for snipers to function anymore since sniping across north to south is no longer valid, and central alley is too exposed--they spot you the instant you fire. El Halolf... you lack the gun depression to work in the north hills and you lack the armour to be at northwest corner, so meaningful contribution other than trying to suppress enemy hill sniping crew and failing due to lack of gundep and armour above the gun's level? Don't make me laugh.

 

EDIT: I just managed to prove that this thing cannot reverse a Maus off its side fast enough to not die.

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I don't see why the 704 should not work anymore.

 

It has a very good armor layout and decent traverse: You can bait shots on corners with your front, just drive out at an angle at which nothing can pen and only Stalin's moustache (mantlet) is not autobounce. After they have taken the shot, you go around the corner, blap for 750 and retreat. Also, you can sidescrape well with the 704.

 

Fair enough, it got nerfed a little but it still has 750 alpha, 2744 base dpm and is flexible enough for medium tank gameplay. If you compare this tank to a T95, sorry but I am certain you are doing it wrong. Ofc it does not want to fight multiple enemies at a time but no TD wants that.

 

How  about you provide us with some replays of yours where you found the 704 lacking. Because it is difficult to give advice out of thin air.

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I don't see why the 704 should not work anymore.

 

It has a very good armor layout and decent traverse: You can bait shots on corners with your front, just drive out at an angle at which nothing can pen and only Stalin's moustache (mantlet) is not autobounce. After they have taken the shot, you go around the corner, blap for 750 and retreat. Also, you can sidescrape well with the 704.

 

Fair enough, it got nerfed a little but it still has 750 alpha, 2744 base dpm and is flexible enough for medium tank gameplay. If you compare this tank to a T95, sorry but I am certain you are doing it wrong. Ofc it does not want to fight multiple enemies at a time but no TD wants that.

 

How  about you provide us with some replays of yours where you found the 704 lacking. Because it is difficult to give advice out of thin air.

 

Replays (10+2, the 2 being me raging about IS-7s bullshit sniping my face off and my first Ace Tanker in this hunk of junk):

http://wotreplays.com/player/guardian54/version/37/sort/uploaded_at.desc/

 

Good armor layout... you people keep using that term... compared to what? The waffle is the only one that's worse, even SU-122-54 is arguably better since it has the mobility to duck behind cover, comparable angle, and an almost-as-bullshit mantlet.

 

That would mean taking more than 3 seconds to round the corner, 4 seconds to aim,a nd 3 seconds to turn enough to retreat the way you described. There are few tanks that cannot reload in 10 seconds. It does NOT have good traverse. The SU-122-54 has good traverse, T30 turret + hull is godo traverse, Foch has good traverse, Tortoise gun + hull is hilarious traverse. This... you might as well argue that ISU has mediocre traverse instead of outright bad.

 

Right now I'm at 90 matches, 44.44% wins, 74.74% hit rate, only 1.5 damage ratio due to super aggro instead of constant bushwanking, 0.42 armor-use efficiency, 2042 DPG. I think that 2042 DPG should translate to about 48-50% win rate given how early in most matches I do my damage, but I suppose in pubs 3 minutes is far too long for most heavies to survive.

 

Oddly, my 122-54 has less DPG, but 54% win rate back when I was 50%. It's probably the mobility and flexibility...

 

Remember 704 vision got nerfed hard from 390 to 360, there are more scouts in game now, and, more damning, the shot dispersion got nerfed.

 

Writing a research paper about fruit flies is more fun than grinding the 704.

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Didn't this thing used to be a beast? Was it nerfed, or is the uselessness that seems to be going around because of the new meta and dispersion changes?

I remember hating the damn things, but haven't seen them around much lately, I guess this is why?

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I'll have a look at the replays tmr when I am recovering from going out today.  :verysmug:

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Didn't this thing used to be a beast? Was it nerfed, or is the uselessness that seems to be going around because of the new meta and dispersion changes?

I remember hating the damn things, but haven't seen them around much lately, I guess this is why?

 

Vision from 390 to 360 is pretty decisive at tier 9.

 

Also, maps changed. Even Live Oaks south of the rails has been raped beyond recognition for TDs.

 

Then there was the dispersion nerf.

 

I hated them too. Now I feel sorry for anyone else dumb enough to drive one.

 

I'll have a look at the replays tmr when I am recovering from going out today.  :verysmug:

 

Thanks, hope you're feeling better tomorrow.

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Had a look at the replays you provided, couldn't do it earlier due to lack of internetz.

 

From what I see in the replays, the problems you have with the tank are mostly because of (a) bad positioning resulting in no damage, bad trades or death and (b) because of bad angling. Just a few examples:

 

  • Your 5k damage carry on Steppes: While choosing the better flank, your initial position is not good because it risks getting flanked from above; the fact that this didn't happen was because the enemies were dumb. Moreover, when trying to shoot a crossing t8 heavy, you exposed your tank to all (!!!!) enemies on your flank. Like, all of those enemies could've shot you. The fact that you survived this encounter is only attributable to the trollish armor of the 704 and really bad enemies.
  • On Abbey, you initially try to go hulldown behind the wreck of an E8. The IS-7 simply pens your shoulder - nothing odd about it - and the JPZ only crits on your side which is lucky. Getting flanked by the IS-7 is your fault. You knew you had mediocre teammates and the Leo PTA was in a position from which he could only spot the IS-7 when it would be too late already.
  • In both Stalingrad games, you moved out of position which doesn't work in a turretless TD. Against the T54E1, you kept your armor flat towards him even though he shot AP. Given the low AP pen but very good intra-clip reload of the T54E1, you should have known that reversing back into cover even without your excuse of a wiggle would take too long. Instead, you should have angled your tank for real and counted on bouncing 2 shots of his, then using his reload to get back to safety. In general, you should work on your angling.
    In the other game you first wreck the 7/1 which is nice but then get greedy against the China med and get punished accordingly. You overexposed, plain and simple.
  • On Fjords, you play a decent game until your last attack which was greedy again. In general, you seem to make a point of providing multiple enemies with shots on you, for whatever reason, instead of making sure to only get shot by one tank at most and if at all...
  • On Lakeville standard, you simply missed good shooting opportunities. Granted, you lack of vision hurt you in the beginning but having a look at the replay, you just didn't get the timing right. In the end, against the E4, you shot at his turret front, not the side and given the range, you got unlucky. In the encounter game, autoaiming against the E75 didn't work well because you hit the rock thing in front of you etc., just manually aim it next time. Also, you knew the WT was sitting in the back and he finally got you as was to be expected.

In general, I see a tank that is still perfectly fine, bounces a lot of stuff and has an amazing gun, i.e. a 704 that is still among the best t9 TDs out there. The reason for your difficulties is found in your gameplay. While you are a decent player, you show suboptimal positioning, timing, overexposing and lack of angling. You seem to be rather impatient at times, too. What amazes me in general is the habit of telling your enemies about your equipment, notifying them when your own teammates are badly positioned etc. Maybe that's how it goes on the US servers, I don't know about it.

 

That said, I don't see any reason why you shouldn't be able to make this tank work because you are a decent player after all and should be able to improve.

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