iihii

Spahpanzer SP I C

159 posts in this topic

14 hours ago, UglyBigD said:

I've only played the Spahpanzer with the single shot, and I don't really see a need for the autoloader. No autoloader means that I can take all the low chance shots I want and not have to worry about being ganked on the 20 sec reload. 

On 5/24/2016 at 4:58 PM, lt_lolcat said:

I played this tank for a while with the autoloader and have now switched back to the single shot gun.  I find it works a lot better for me now.  The gun handling is nicer and it doesn't tempt me to stay exposed just so I can dump out my clip. 

14 hours ago, Rexxie said:

Why even play the SPIC if you arent going to use the autoloader? The WZ-131 does almost everything better if you want a single shot gun.

What Rexxie said. BTW Carbon ran autoloader also, he said it was better. :) 

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Well, I slapped the autoloader on it and I've had some pretty great games in it so far. Looks like I might've been a presumptive (or the maps rotation has been good)

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Yeah, I go back and forth with this one depending upon how well I'm doing in it.  In any case, I don't really like this tank. 

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I think this is one of the worst tanks i have ever played. Basically a pleb WZ131, because everything this tin can does the WZ131 does better.

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EDIT: Thanks to the commenters, I acknowledge that I'm not exactly using the right equipment/crew loadout (read: listened to WG comments on LT changes and thought passive scouting was the intended role) and rather behind the times on the meta due to about 10 month break from WoT before late 2017. However, IS-3, 110, or the like are all reasonably playable without the right equipment and a stock 100% crew. Light tanks in general aren't, but SP I C still falls far short of the bar of "would be bleh with right gear and crew" that the other Tier 7 LTs at least meet if not roflstomp all over (cough T71 DA cough).

This feels, and has felt since I started playing it (October 2017), like more of a garbage scow than the reputation of the new DoYlist FREEmium (Doylist perspective explains why the DoY is so bad compared to KGV) in Warships. I did not expect that I would ever wish I'd just ground out the AwfulPanther back in the day...

Has anyone got any advice for SP I C play beyond "act like a Hellcat with shit shell velocity, no Jesus APCR, and worse reload a tier up"? I have had exactly one decent match in it when the stars aligned, but even that involved no damage dealing and just pure scouting.

In greater detail...

As far as I understand, a vehicle has several criteria that make it useful: Firepower, Mobility, Effective Armour, Information Control (Vision/Camo + present maps). These combine to make several emergent properties like the ability to keep a gun firing effectively on targets, and the ability to flank effectively.

The problem I have with the SP I C is that it appears to have exactly none of these properties that make a vehicle good or even reasonable to the filthy unwashed masses (i.e. not 3x platooned unicums firing full sprem ammo, though IIRC it's HEAT and might actually be worse in many applications for this thing).

Firepower

158/210/45 penetration, 6.67 RPM, 240 alpha, 2.2 aim time, 0.36/100m... the hard stats are tolerable if it had Type 62 levels of gun handling. The problem is that if the upper front plate was much flatter I'd probably manage to shoot myself turning at full speed on flat ground. The gun handling is cancer for a paper bag light tank. The DPS is a sad joke next to the likes of the Type 62 at the same tier.

The turret traverses 44 deg/sec, which would be OK if the tracks did not, on paper, do the same thing, which makes keeping the gun on target impossible during a turn, and if the gun handling was less abysmal. The reload is also pure AWFUL for a light tank.

The gun depression of -10 would be quite good if it had the turret armour and reverse speed combo to leverage it without getting snapshot to pieces because you actually have to stop and aim if you want to have any reliable accuracy.

Anyone who'd like to play a TD with this thing had better hope their targets don't move for about 1 full second after you fully aim in (read: the enemy hangs out in the open and sits still with their side/ass to you for 5 seconds at least due to fuckoff bloom killing your aim time), due to the shell velocity and your armour meaning you have to fire at very long ranges. And even then you have a good chance of missing if it's an enemy LT because of the range, or he moved/died because other TDs fired on him and their shells got there before yours.

Mobility

Top speed of 58 kph is unexceptional, and reverse of 22 kph for a light tank is also unexceptional. Both speeds are almost AMX-40 level impossible to achieve and bleed monumentally in a turn.

Traverse rate of 44 degrees per second makes keeping gun on target impossible.

Acceleration is AWFUL for something of its weight and supposed engine power.

Effective Armour

The devs may have forgotten that arty is now highly accurate and the SP I C lacks the mobility to escape that shell already on its way once 6th sense lights up. Also, the armour is enough to get auto-penned by anything it sees unless someone troll tooned with a Pz 1 C or something... which would STILL pen.

The paper bag nature combined with gun handling and bleh camo makes peekaboom unviable even versus other LTs. It also gets rammed to death by anything bigger than an ELC with trivial ease. A 13 75 or T71 DA can probably leeroy a full health SP I C to death comfortably. I've never seen it happen to me, but it's a gut feeling of dread.

Information

The camo feels quite bleh even with binocs and camo net, at least compared to Soviet Mediums/Lights and even Chinese. And getting the hell out of a passive spotting bush once you are at serious risk of or being lit up is far too slow in acceleration to avoid the 2-3 TD shells pre-aimed in that general region (e.g. Prokhorovka 1-line bushes).

Active scouting is outright suicide with autopen everywhere (though I once ate a T30 shot to the tracks without getting tracked somehow)

CONCLUSION?

Can't kill enemies effectively due to gun handling, mobility and armour mix... Can't scout actively, or passively... CAN distract enemy team with Free XP pinata. Unfortunately, it does not last long enough as a pinata to matter.

I rate it 0/10 overall with my current tankery know-how. More tank-fu is needed to not negative stat pad with this.

...or it needs a whole shitload of buffs, starting with taking the loader out back and shooting him for sabotage for taking over 6 seconds to load a 90mm shell when the Chinese peasant recruit suffering from childhood malnutrition can load an 85mm shell in 5.5 seconds on the Type 62 BEFORE the help of the gun rammer and vents.

Alternatively, due to the huge XP slog to the Tier 8, this is intended to be a Free XP sink that surpasses even the infamous AMX M4 45.

I liked the pre-buff (i.e. pre T10 LTs) MT-25 more than this thing, and the fact that they both changed the MM and buffed it should tell you how garbage the MT-25 was back then.

So, any advice other than "Bush camp in general whenever possible, pray your teams can carry your weight, and hope to start as Redshire south team where you can sit in that bush between the 3 trees on southeast end of center ridge and spot enemies sniping along the hill to your northeast"? (El Halluf south team can also do some damage against enemies rushing across the gap, which is an easier shot from south to north than from east to west, but the low pen is a problem against the fast heavies sides these days)

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Never played it but it does look bad from the stats (though the camo is not as bad as you say and it has some nice view range). Post some replays and share your crew/equipment  layout. Many players dont know how to proper equip it. 

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7 minutes ago, nabucodonsor said:

Never played it but it does look bad from the stats (though the camo is not as bad as you say and it has some nice view range). Post some replays and share your crew/equipment  layout. Many players dont know how to proper equip it. 

binocs/camo net/toolbox because I'm a cheap-ass on anything below Tier 9 or prems (e.g. my Type 62 has vents/optics/rammer or vstab/optics/rammer, I forget), but the binocs and camo net are kind of required regardless for passive scouting.

"No passive scout may do great wrong if he places his vehicle within a bush with binocs and camo net"--Not Nelson

I rely in my own awareness and intuition instead of 6th sense up to about early Tier 9 or so on basically every line, because I go for BIA first to make all my crews more interchangeable when required (e.g. nab radioman from one line that doesn't use it at least for that tier and shove it in another that does use it). The habit has not been too nasty in the past and made me more careful and attentive of maps in general than playing with a lightbulb does... until the SP I C.

Ye gods the SP I C... if I had had any idea how bad it was I would have pulled the crew from my Leo 1 to grind up the German LT line, because med crews are easy to train with my large stable of premium medium tanks. Well, don't feel like spending any gold and the tank is so crap regardless that pulling the crew wouldn't save it either...

 

My metric for "underpowered" is such that "3+ skill crew makes it vaguely tolerable" just confirms it as underpowered. I don't think this is a metric most players share.

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27 minutes ago, Guardian54 said:

binocs/camo net/toolbox because I'm a cheap-ass on anything below Tier 9 or prems (e.g. my Type 62 has vents/optics/rammer or vstab/optics/rammer, I forget), but the binocs and camo net are kind of required regardless for passive scouting.

"No passive scout may do great wrong if he places his vehicle within a bush with binocs and camo net"--Not Nelson

I rely in my own awareness and intuition instead of 6th sense up to about early Tier 9 or so on basically every line, because I go for BIA first to make all my crews more interchangeable when required (e.g. nab radioman from one line that doesn't use it at least for that tier and shove it in another that does use it). The habit has not been too nasty in the past and made me more careful and attentive of maps in general than playing with a lightbulb does... until the SP I C.

Ye gods the SP I C... if I had had any idea how bad it was I would have pulled the crew from my Leo 1 to grind up the German LT line, because med crews are easy to train with my large stable of premium medium tanks. Well, don't feel like spending any gold and the tank is so crap regardless that pulling the crew wouldn't save it either...

 

My metric for "underpowered" is such that "3+ skill crew makes it vaguely tolerable" just confirms it as underpowered. I don't think this is a metric most players share.

Passive scouting is kinda dead so yeah at this point you could run it with nothing. While the tank might be bad you are doing everything to make it worse and not better.

Mount Vstab vents and optics, switch to active and see how it goes. That equipment will come in handy when you get to the HWK. I mean you have lots of premium tanks and you are afraid to spend some credits for equipment yo can reuse on other tanks? Sounds a bit incoherent to me.

Also as good as your skill might be 6th sense is a must on all tanks especially on LTs. Trust me on this. Go for 6th, camo and bia.

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52 minutes ago, nabucodonsor said:

Passive scouting is kinda dead so yeah at this point you could run it with nothing. While the tank might be bad you are doing everything to make it worse and not better.

Mount Vstab vents and optics, switch to active and see how it goes. That equipment will come in handy when you get to the HWK. I mean you have lots of premium tanks and you are afraid to spend some credits for equipment yo can reuse on other tanks? Sounds a bit incoherent to me.

Also as good as your skill might be 6th sense is a must on all tanks especially on LTs. Trust me on this. Go for 6th, camo and bia.

Wait, I thought LT nerfs were intended to make them more passive? Huh, WG lied, again, no surprise there.

No rammer? Well I guess the DPS is so shit that helping it doesn't help anyhow.

 

I've always gone BIA, 6th, and then whatever else, so I should just crew grind for a while in low tier prem LTs until I get 6th going, :) also makes creds along the way and avoids too much RAGE.

 

I'll buy equipment on the next 50% off equipment sale and see how that goes. Thanks for the advice.

...Still think the tank is shit though. The DPM and lack of spike is just monstrously inadequate for an unagile paper bag.

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It is fairly well known that with the light tank restructuring, the once mighty SP I C was relegated to a tank to grind through.  The auto-loader and view range advantage (over same tier scouts) provided a slightly different style of play and made it unique and a serviceable scout.  The slow shell speed only just kept it in check.  Now a days its a shitty generic single shot that is outclassed by every other generic single shot in class and tier.

Like most light tanks, proper equipment, crew skills, play styles, and appreciation of tank limitations are key to making the tank perform.  It's a little disingenuous to set yourself up for failure with a "cheap-ass " sub optimal equipment load-out (passive scouting forsooth) and sub-standard crew skills and then question "tank performance", even given that the SP I C is currently a low end performer.  

Advice?  Review recent Ace Tanker replays on wotreplays.com, but more importantly quit being a "cheap ass".  Equip and crew your tanks properly (see above) after reviewing the original thread for more  suggestions, otherwise get comfortable and accept the fact that intentionally gimping yourself with sub-optimal load-outs and sub-optimal crew skills through grinds costs you more in the long run...

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46 minutes ago, Guardian54 said:

Wait, I thought LT nerfs were intended to make them more passive? Huh, WG lied, again, no surprise there.

No rammer? Well I guess the DPS is so shit that helping it doesn't help anyhow.

 

I've always gone BIA, 6th, and then whatever else, so I should just crew grind for a while in low tier prem LTs until I get 6th going, :) also makes creds along the way and avoids too much RAGE.

 

I'll buy equipment on the next 50% off equipment sale and see how that goes. Thanks for the advice.

...Still think the tank is shit though. The DPM and lack of spike is just monstrously inadequate for an unagile paper bag.

DPM is overrated in general and on LTs is mostly useless. But this is just my opinion. 

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Remember, the WG dev team is trapped in a world where chai sniping bush kampers and vision still exist because most of them have not played Murazor's game since 2014.  In the current iteration of WoT LTs get a gun that can neither hit weak spots nor penetrate them in exchange for elite 'scouting' ability.  Its a joke, but sadly, its not a joke.  The only LTs worth playing are the ones that can either bring some burst damage via a drive by shooting (autoloaders or chode-derps), can play pocket medium (black dog or chinese), or are formula one race cars with cloaking devices (mother russia).  SP1C is none of these, ergo its in the free-XP-league.

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2 minutes ago, Archaic_One said:

Remember, the WG dev team is trapped in a world where chai sniping bush kampers and vision still exist because most of them have not played Murazor's game since 2014.  In the current iteration of WoT LTs get a gun that can neither hit weak spots nor penetrate them in exchange for elite 'scouting' ability.  Its a joke, but sadly, its not a joke.  The only LTs worth playing are the ones that can either bring some burst damage via a drive by shooting (autoloaders or chode-derps), can play pocket medium (black dog or chinese), or are formula one race cars with cloaking devices (mother russia).  SP1C is none of these, ergo its in the free-XP-league.

Agreed but you could say that about most tanks. Example IS3/Caer make most tanks useless at tier 8 ect. This is why WG sucks at their job. All tanks should be equal in terms of balancing and be relevant according to playstyle.

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2 hours ago, 8_Hussars said:

Equip and crew your tanks properly (see above) after reviewing the original thread for more  suggestions, otherwise get comfortable and accept the fact that intentionally gimping yourself with sub-optimal load-outs and sub-optimal crew skills through grinds costs you more in the long run...

 

I got the memo already thanks.

However, I should remind you though that "Balanced" and "only vaguely tolerable when kitted out properly" are not within shouting distance of each other. So the premise that the SP I C is underpowered still holds.

An IS-3 or 110 or 50 100 without the correct undemountable equipment is still playable if bleh. Light tanks without equipment are worse than bleh (except, say, the Type 62, first couple times I took that out were unequipped and it was just bleh instead of worse). Since SP I C remains on the poor side of bleh even with the correct equipment (the shell velocity and OMFGWTF base gun handling which can't completely be overcome by a Vstab...), then I think it reasonable to describe it as underpowered.

2 hours ago, nabucodonsor said:

DPM is overrated in general and on LTs is mostly useless. But this is just my opinion. 

Um...

T71 DA would like a word :P

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Everything you described about the SP1C applies to the rest of the line! Except shell speed, kinda. You might want to cut your losses now and not play this line.

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1 hour ago, CraBeatOff said:

Everything you described about the SP1C applies to the rest of the line! Except shell speed, kinda. You might want to cut your losses now and not play this line.

I thought you were a fan of the HWK, @CraBeatOff?  And the RU isn't gimped for mobility or camo.  Maybe I missed on what qualities of the SP1C cited by @Guardian54 you were confirming as applying to the rest of the line?  Did I misunderstand?

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33 minutes ago, Tanager said:

I thought you were a fan of the HWK, @CraBeatOff?  And the RU isn't gimped for mobility or camo.  Maybe I missed on what qualities of the SP1C cited by @Guardian54 you were confirming as applying to the rest of the line?  Did I misunderstand?

I have Hwk and RU and RhmPz all as keepers...but that doesn't mean they're for everyone. It's true that with the exception of the 1375 the tech tree 7s are weak compared to their 8+ counterparts, but tier 7 mm isn't too rough. The whole line is...kinda big, very soft, pretty lackluster dpm and turns wide. This tank was over nerfed when re-tiered but it's not a true turd.

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4 hours ago, CraBeatOff said:

Everything you described about the SP1C applies to the rest of the line! Except shell speed, kinda. You might want to cut your losses now and not play this line.

So, how is gun handling on Rhm Panzerwagen?

Because I can forgive a LOT if the gun handling is good enough... which is why I HATE my WZ-120 (grinding out the 121 to buy on an ontrack just for collector reasons, especially as 430U is about to obsolete it) for its derpiness + crap gundep, mostly the gundep. (If you're going to have that bad gun handling, and the armour isn't E75 tier or better in resilience...).

Rhm gundep is good enough, so what about the handling? Snapshots? Because IIRC the RU 251 was supposedly pretty sweet in those... (read: played against them enough back in the RU 251 = Tier 8 days)

Though since LTs are underpowered in general I mostly just keep them parked these days...

If the SP I C had commensurate gun handling to the pre-armour-buff T-54's 201 pen gun (which used to have jesus gun handling) and at least 1600 nominal DPM, OR equal DPM/shell velocity/handling to the Type 62, I would have almost no complaints about it whatsoever because then it could actually peek ridges, flank or even SNIPE effectively.

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I have a strange feeling you try to play your lights as meds. Lights make for shitty meds. Look up Illa Red on youtube. Run Optis (ALWAYS), Camo paint (ALWAYS) and vision skills + camo over BIA since they give you a bigger boost to your scouting ability.

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Ilya Red. He's solid on his scouting explanations. I've picked up a few things from his channel that improved my play. Skill4ltu is also a great demonstration of proper scouting, but less explicit in his instructions

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56 minutes ago, hazzgar said:

I have a strange feeling you try to play your lights as meds. Lights make for shitty meds. Look up Illa Red on youtube. Run Optis (ALWAYS), Camo paint (ALWAYS) and vision skills + camo over BIA since they give you a bigger boost to your scouting ability.

We're definitely a bit off-track, but wth...are there scouts in which one should run BIA instead of vision skills, b/c of the boost to mobility?  Or is that falling into the "playing scouts as med-lites" you were describing, do you think?

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You run BIA mostly because of the boost to literally everything. It's a skill that not only enhances the basic crew skills, but also synergizes with actual crew skills. It enhances Repair, it enhances Camouflage, it beats Recon in terms of view range bonus (Situational Awareness in and of itself is superior to BIA in regard to absolute view range bonus, but I'd still advice BIA over Situational, due to the bonus to Camouflage you get). BIA is not really worth a whole lot, before you get either Camouflage or Repairs (depending on the vehicle in question).

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45 minutes ago, Madner Kami said:

You run BIA mostly because of the boost to literally everything. It's a skill that not only enhances the basic crew skills, but also synergizes with actual crew skills. It enhances Repair, it enhances Camouflage, it beats Recon in terms of view range bonus (Situational Awareness in and of itself is superior to BIA in regard to absolute view range bonus, but I'd still advice BIA over Situational, due to the bonus to Camouflage you get). BIA is not really worth a whole lot, before you get either Camouflage or Repairs (depending on the vehicle in question).

@Madner Kami thanks for that, I am ashamed to say I never recognized BIA was marginally better than Recon for view range.

In general I find BIA is a crew developmental timing strategy.  Since every crew member has to have the skill fully researched you are effectively trading other skill specific improvement opportunities (and/or time) for the generic bonus to everything.

For example; in a small SP I C crew at what point will you get better overall (and/or problem mitigation) performance from BIA than you can get out of position specific skills.  For most players and most tanks its somewhere in the third to fourth skill range (or a training sale).   

Commander/Loader/RO     SS, Camo, SA, Recon, Repair

Gunner/Loader                   Snap, Camo, Armourer, DT, Repair 

Driver                                  CB, Camo, ORD, Smooth, Repair

 

1 hour ago, Tanager said:

We're definitely a bit off-track, but wth...are there scouts in which one should run BIA instead of vision skills, b/c of the boost to mobility?  Or is that falling into the "playing scouts as med-lites" you were describing, do you think?

The one candidate that comes to mind for earlier than normal BIA is the LTG due to the much lower initial view range and it relying on camo more than view range to scout.  You dont even bust 445m view range with optics, SA, and food...

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