theangrytoast

Why Do People Hate On The VK 16.02 Leopard

74 posts in this topic

well almost every tier 7 scout is fun because you get to see alot of tier 8 matches. But the Sp1c good? meh. Poor accuracy on dat autoloader fail gun and your hull armor... If I press the magic 3 key with my new LTTB I shoot 300 damage on any Sp1c per shot.

The non-autoloading gun actually looks decent. I might even buy it one day

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5 hours ago, bask185 said:

well almost every tier 7 scout is fun because you get to see alot of tier 8 matches. But the Sp1c good? meh. Poor accuracy on dat autoloader fail gun and your hull armor... If I press the magic 3 key with my new LTTB I shoot 300 damage on any Sp1c per shot.

The non-autoloading gun actually looks decent. I might even buy it one day

Exactly!

You simply can not judge SP1C based on stats. Gun is very derpy on paper - but IRL it behaves very nice. Why?

Because you are a very, very small target - I play the Bulldog (LTTB worse, because worse gun dep+rather tall), and by the time I aim all the way on both tanks, enemies have already hit my M41, while 1C have aimed and fired without retribution - base acc is better than Bulldog for instance (both autoloaders). Also, clip is perfectly timed - you have enough time to aim between shots. M41 can yolo tanks like no other, though.

I compare with M41 because they are 2 best scouts on tier. LTTB is crap, and if 1C let you shoot him he is an idiot. LTTB eats other scouts for breakfast, but 1C is primarily good as a passive spout, and opportunist - shells are slow, but 250 HEAT with 3x240 goes very well against heavies, the bigger, boxier, and derpier, better.

Never fight meds or enemy lights - but that class (tier 7-8 meds and lights) have minimal impact on games anyway, so why bother risking yourself by trying to kill them.

Play it by reversing from corners or hulldown against heavies - both LTTB and M41 are good against weakly armored targets because autoloader/OP HE shells, but they actually suck in this meta.

Dmg you make in SP1C is simply worth more than with either of above mentioned tanks due to who you shoot (more important tanks like IS-3/6).

Also, effective DPM if far better than bulldog due to less downtime, and more manageable clip. LTTB dpm is just theoretic, exposere to get it working with so abysmal gun depression is a death sentence.

SP1C is simply much more than a sum of its parts (stats). 

And autoloader gun is way better on that chassis. After you dump a clip (sometimes just 2 shells), you go dark and relocate 100 m avay against another opponent.

My bro get the T-54 through the light line, and I played every tank at least 1/3 of the battle count, so i know how they behave. I adored LTTB gun, but that gun depression kills the whole tank. T-54 ltwt is a much better tank, it at least can play like a faster, shitty med with great camo. You basically play it in CW only, anyway.

P.S. armor on a light? ppl mostly do not shoot HE on SP1C anyway. Size and camo is your armor. RU 251 has size issues+HE because much easier to hit (+faces opponents with way more accuracy).

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13 hours ago, Felicius said:

and huge with no effective armor, T37 is far better, and if even in strongholds you see VKs once in a year, where it is always top tier, you know its time is over.

It has derp+can ram, which tells you how serious that tank is meant to be.

Pleasurable grind, though (but gets boring after a hundred games), from Luchs to RU only Leo was meh.

yeah, the leo is the only bad one. 

i keep the vk for fun, its not a great tank really, but the derp can be so funny when you pen the side of a t34 85 from 500m when they are moving.

I Went through the awful panther, and i sucked in it. 280 battles and 450 damage as game *cringes*

it still wasn't terrible, just hopelessly outclassed in every role. it tried to be a light and medium at the same time, which would have worked with medium mm. I don't know what my point is but i felt like ranting :P

1.5k of my 9.8k battles are in german scouts. they are probs the most varied line, though all the scout lines are very varied.

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On 10/30/2016 at 8:45 PM, Felicius said:

Spall liner helps very little in ramming (light one).

So, you gave up vents/optics/binos for spall?

I run with vents, optics and spall liner.  The gun laying drive is pretty useless as the gun is only used at close range and on the move.  Binos are also pretty useless because with my BIA crew, my view range is already at 436 meters.

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14 hours ago, Felicius said:

I play the Bulldog (LTTB worse, because worse gun dep+rather tall), and by the time I aim all the way on both tanks, enemies have already hit my M41, while 1C have aimed and fired without retribution - base acc is better than Bulldog for instance (both autoloaders). Also, clip is perfectly timed - you have enough time to aim between shots. M41 can yolo tanks like no other, though.

 

The Lttb has armor that actually works sometimes and the bulldog has a clipsize so big it can clip tier 8 mediums in 1 to 1 as such the bulldog is not only broken it is also kinda OP. No other T7 scout stands only a tiny little chance except for the T71 which can clip him back. That is why I dont use an autoloader on my bulldog.. besides it's 'normal' topgun is a perfectly fine which does not perform any less to other scouts.

IMo the wz131 is the best T7 scout followed by the Lttb. These tanks have solid reliable guns, the wz131 has the best gun and Lttb has awesome mobility + bouncy armor (I succesfully sidescraped other scouts in it). After those 2 I would take the bulldog with normal gun (has almost same dpm as lttb) followed by the sp1c with also the normal gun. I feel happier knowing I am better balanced :) 

On another note about spallliners. I once heared, but I cant recall where and when, that it only would work with ramming if the opponent would be absolutely stationairy. I thought it was some kind of bug atleast it was not working entirely as intended. Or perhaps I'm talking about the controlled impact skill but I believed that one of the 2 only worked on a stationairy enemy

 

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5 hours ago, bask185 said:

IMo the wz131 is the best T7 scout followed by the Lttb. These tanks have solid reliable guns, the wz131 has the best gun and Lttb has awesome mobility + bouncy armor (I succesfully sidescraped other scouts in it). After those 2 I would take the bulldog with normal gun (has almost same dpm as lttb) followed by the sp1c with also the normal gun. I feel happier knowing I am better balanced :) 

 

Take a look at my acc:tanfiesta:

My WZ-131 has a nice girl crew in there. Forgot him totally.

Very good scout. Way better than LTTB. It also has better 85 mm gun, 20 alpha more on both shells+that HEAT actually works better then 216 APCR when you camo snipe heavies at 300+m. For flanking "anemic" AP is fine, since you target side or rear armor.

Running M41 is simply crippling yourself, since the tank is built around autoloader. WZ is way better single-shot platform.

Again, armor that works against other scouts is nothing to write about. My scouts are not there to kill other scouts - enemy lights are usually dumb enough to get themselves killed without my help. Instead, I concentrate on spotting, both active, and passive (depending on map, but first half mostly passive - value of scouts go exponentially as battle progresses, and field thins out), killing enemy heavies with gold rounds (or yoloing them if isolated for 1500 in M41), and general harassment/camo snipe.

LTTB can kill other scouts, but that role is a low value one. You end up half dead in best case, anyway. M41 and WZ can kill you, or be killed, it is matter of RNG did you make HE penn (or evenpoint the gun in other tank due to bad gun depression) or not, and SP1C is gonna take his 720 hp worth pound of flesh if he is smart, even with AP loaded.

13 hours ago, lt_lolcat said:

I run with vents, optics and spall liner.  The gun laying drive is pretty useless as the gun is only used at close range and on the move.  Binos are also pretty useless because with my BIA crew, my view range is already at 436 meters.

Great, so you will spot enemy meds with some camo at 330-350 m, they will spot you at around 300-350 m, even with full camo crew+BIA+paint. TDs with binos are gonna also outspot you.

You do realize that you do not spot enemy vehicles immediately? You have to burn through their camo. Spotting heavies is no big deal - they got spotted in any case. Digging out camping meds and tds is your job.

Binos make you relevant on 4-5 maps where lights still have any impact (Malinovka/Prokh/Highway...), on other maps you are useless anyway.

If you ran choco+ other 2 vision skills, i would say drop the binos on a normal higher tier scout - that can mount rammer and/or Vstab (but you can not either). camo net is of limited use - not completley useless if you do the missions (binos+opt+camo net) that you must do unspotted assist dmg.

Go learn more about spall liners before mounting them on lights.

https://www.reddit.com/r/WorldofTanks/comments/1xjosc/is_super_heavy_spall_liner_worth_it/

Or simply follow the common sense:

http://www.vbaddict.net/tankstats/germany/light/vk_16_02_leopard-21

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You need to realize that when I play the Leopard, I never stop long enough for binocs to work so they don't fucking matter.  I play it because its fun, not because its particularly effective.  Although, come to think of it, I have a better win rate in it than any of the other german scouts. 

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I finished three marking this tank this weekend. I'm not quite sure what I think of it. It seems like the least good of the three tier 5 scouts but I actually maintained a pretty good win rate in it. I played for a while with the 5cm gun but that makes the overall tank into a worse Chaffee. I finished the third MOE with the 3cm gun and overall I find it better. It's a little frustrating to use at times - you can't shoot stuff at range and there's many times where you can't take available shots because you're on your 16 second clip. However, after playing with it for a while, I adjusted to the clip time and got better at positioning myself to be safe while clipping. At that point it became pretty fun. It became a game in itself to see if I could land entire clips (only happened a couple times). It was rather satisfying to drop a clip into an unsuspecting enemy and know that they wondering what the heck just happened (12 shells in a second or so).

So overall it was actually a fun little tank to three mark but it isn't anything great. An ELC is much more capable but I'd much rather play the VK1602 because of ebola gun handling on the ELC.

I ended up running Optics, Vents, and Binocs to maximize vision capability. GLD isn't needed and there's no rammer so might as well go max utility. I also only shot two or three clips of APCR so I made bank while playing through this tank.

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8 minutes ago, dualmaster333 said:

I finished three marking this tank this weekend. I'm not quite sure what I think of it. It seems like the least good of the three tier 5 scouts but I actually maintained a pretty good win rate in it. I played for a while with the 5cm gun but that makes the overall tank into a worse Chaffee. I finished the third MOE with the 3cm gun and overall I find it better. It's a little frustrating to use at times - you can shoot stuff at range and there's many times where you can't take available shots because you're on your 16 second clip. However, after playing with it for a while, I adjusted to the clip time and got better at positioning myself to be safe while clipping. At that point it became pretty fun. It became a game in itself to see if I could land entire clips (only happened a couple times). It was rather satisfying to drop a clip into an unsuspecting enemy and know that they wondering what the heck just happened (12 shells in a second or so).

So overall it was actually a fun little tank to three mark but it isn't anything great. An ELC is much more capable but I'd much rather play the VK1602 because of ebola gun handling on the ELC.

I ended up running Optics, Vents, and Binocs to maximize vision capability. GLD isn't needed and there's no rammer so might as well go max utility. I also only shot two or three clips of APCR so I made bank while playing through this tank.

Should I buy this tank and 3 mark it after I do the VK2801? 

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1 minute ago, CraBeatOff said:

Should I buy this tank and 3 mark it after I do the VK2801? 

It's nothing special but I also kinda enjoyed it. The autocannon is a gimmick that kinda works. Not as satisfying as a proper derp gun but a little more consistent. This tank does leave you feeling somewhat impotent at times though. So do with that what you will.

I actually picked up the VK2801 yesterday and played a game in it. Miniderp seems like it has some real potential! 

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Still trying to triple mark it, I should've had it 2 weeks ago but then MM decided it needs to give its utmost to screw me over and my percentage went from 90 to 92% in like 40 games with overall combined dropping from >1300 to just barely holding on to 1200 right now.

My verdict is similar, but with one important difference: It could be fun, if it wasn't for it's massively glaring weakness: Doing well in it is extremely dependent on team, MM and map. Having a shotgun with only "alright" clip damage, very low pen and an effective dpm that rivals tier 1s on top of the very low hp pool means you have to rely on teammates to distract enemies, you need the right map to flank around people and the MM to give you enough soft tanks to shoot, and even then, while clipping somebody is fun, a maximum of 360 damage every 20ish seconds is very ineffective compared to the other lights. I have the the lowest DPG of any tier 5 I've recently played in by a country mile (about 600) and all of that has to be made up with spotting, which obviously is also very map and team-dependent. And being that dependent on other factors just makes me feel frustrated more often than having fun.

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14 hours ago, breeeze said:

Still trying to triple mark it, I should've had it 2 weeks ago but then MM decided it needs to give its utmost to screw me over and my percentage went from 90 to 92% in like 40 games with overall combined dropping from >1300 to just barely holding on to 1200 right now.

My verdict is similar, but with one important difference: It could be fun, if it wasn't for it's massively glaring weakness: Doing well in it is extremely dependent on team, MM and map. Having a shotgun with only "alright" clip damage, very low pen and an effective dpm that rivals tier 1s on top of the very low hp pool means you have to rely on teammates to distract enemies, you need the right map to flank around people and the MM to give you enough soft tanks to shoot, and even then, while clipping somebody is fun, a maximum of 360 damage every 20ish seconds is very ineffective compared to the other lights. I have the the lowest DPG of any tier 5 I've recently played in by a country mile (about 600) and all of that has to be made up with spotting, which obviously is also very map and team-dependent. And being that dependent on other factors just makes me feel frustrated more often than having fun.

I agree for the most part. There are some games where you just end up feeling impotent and a bad string of maps can be frustrating. I did have to adjust play style a bit from the other tier 5 lights because the long clip reload is a problem. You have to choose your engagement locations such that you don't get overrun while reloading. I don't really agree that it is far more map/team/MM dependent than the other lights (though it certainly pulls in lower DPG).

Protip: Make sure you have assault turned on as they are pretty easy to win with tier 5 lights.

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Well it's quite simple really, the ELC and Chaffee can still snipe/load gold for heavies even if shit hits the fan, while the Leo cannot , it's essentially a useless bag of hitpoints in those situations while also having to rely much more on spotting for its combined damage due to the lower damage output. That's what I mean with being more dependent on those factors.

Although I'm curious, what kind of DPG did you pull in your Leo compared to the Chaffee/ELC, I last played the Chaffee quite a while ago but the difference is still quite massive at 820 vs. 600... Maybe I'm doing something wrong after all.

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Leo definitely can't put out as much damage (which also makes it easier to get MOEs). During the final three mark runs:

Leo - 714 DPG, 727 assist

ELC - 1171 DPG, 607 assist

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In case anyone is wondering, this tank came through the light tank changes rather well. You definitely notice the mobility loss; it feels pretty sluggish getting up to speed. But it zooms around well enough. The MM changes are really superb though. Reading my post above, I mentioned that in some battles you feel impotent. This is no longer the case. In fact with 90/105 penetration there is very little you can't deal with. At worst you're going to see three tier 7s. In tier 6 battles you can do a lot of work and in tier 5 battles you're a vicious murderer.

The worst part of this tank is currently the hit points. 360 hit points is pitifully little. That's three shots to bushwanking T67s or two splashes from M44s. You can't trade away your hit points like you can at higher tiers so you just need to be more cautious about preserving your health.

I dropped a 3.5 skill crew in here, running VStab, Vents, Optics, and chocolate. 450+ view range with 35.7% camo does work at tier 5. The bloom is so low now that you can actually fire on the move and hit a surprising number of shots. I'm still working on my burst control; at close ranges you can empty the whole clip; at mid ranges it really helps to do a burst, let the reticle settle, another burst, etc.

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19 hours ago, dualmaster333 said:

In case anyone is wondering, this tank came through the light tank changes rather well. You definitely notice the mobility loss; it feels pretty sluggish getting up to speed. But it zooms around well enough. The MM changes are really superb though. Reading my post above, I mentioned that in some battles you feel impotent. This is no longer the case. In fact with 90/105 penetration there is very little you can't deal with. At worst you're going to see three tier 7s. In tier 6 battles you can do a lot of work and in tier 5 battles you're a vicious murderer.

The worst part of this tank is currently the hit points. 360 hit points is pitifully little. That's three shots to bushwanking T67s or two splashes from M44s. You can't trade away your hit points like you can at higher tiers so you just need to be more cautious about preserving your health.

I dropped a 3.5 skill crew in here, running VStab, Vents, Optics, and chocolate. 450+ view range with 35.7% camo does work at tier 5. The bloom is so low now that you can actually fire on the move and hit a surprising number of shots. I'm still working on my burst control; at close ranges you can empty the whole clip; at mid ranges it really helps to do a burst, let the reticle settle, another burst, etc.

Or being put to dangerously low HP from one shot from a T34/100. Or any other Tier 7 MT with 240 dmg gun. Or being blasted to oblivion by M4/PzIV 105 derp guns.
Also, good luck outplaying O-Nis or SU-122-44 or any other insanely broken Tier 7 tank

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3 hours ago, Fedaykin89 said:

Or being put to dangerously low HP from one shot from a T34/100. Or any other Tier 7 MT with 240 dmg gun. Or being blasted to oblivion by M4/PzIV 105 derp guns.
Also, good luck outplaying O-Nis or SU-122-44 or any other insanely broken Tier 7 tank

The hp discrepancy between 5 and 7 is pretty wild, but mostly you just shoot 5s and 6s. 

As for the Leopard, it's pretty crazy fun. Mid tier games are dumb but you're more than capable of influencing your battles. Learning to control the 3cm is fun and evaporating low hp tanks or taking big chunks off the distracted is great. Having good depression to the sides is a boon and the short hull enables that. 

I would wish for 80 more hp and 12s reload, as some games you just can't carry with the low dpm. 

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Just bumping this because this thing is so much fun.  Its basically a tier 5 T49.  You dart around in the shadows hunting for butts and unleash a stream of 30mm bukkake all over them, then run away.  Rinse repeat.  Its capable of clipping out most of its counterparts as well, which makes it a truly nasty counter scout.  The best tier 5 LT on city maps. 8/8

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had a german crew sitting in arage bored so threw them in this tonight with the 3cm, lot of fun, its easy to forget how bad players are at lower tiers.

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Screw this tank. Bigger clip and better gun handling but fat and slow compared to the Luchs. You even got a whole 40 HPs for going up a tier. The pen which is fantastic at tier 4 is crap at tier 5 and the gold round is unusable due to the cost and pathetic pen increase. The Luchs is a tier 4.6 at tier 4, this is a tier 4.8 at tier 5. Why play the bad version instead of the stupidly overpowered version?

I've definitely had atrocious luck in it since the changes, but I can't say it feels completely unwarranted.

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I three marked it after the LT changes and throughly enjoyed doing so. The gun handling is insanely good. Just don’t play it like a genuine scout. It’s a support tank. While the Luchs needs no premium spam to be OP, the Leo only really requires some so it can pen the sides of the tier 7 pommy TD.

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