ThomChen114

Japanese HT - is it worth the grind

30 posts in this topic

Just got back from my trip, been hearing about the new Japanese heavy tanks and seen some lately in-game (haven't shot one yet), just wanted to get some sage advice and opinions on whether i should join (or not) the bandwagon and begin the grind up the Japanese heavy tank line.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

People seem to have a bit of a hard time with the tier 5 and 6... not playing them but playing against them... calls of OP are out but it's probably just the fact that people don't know where to shoot them (to be honest, I wouldn't know either... LOAD DA PREM!!!)

New line OP sensation is still there... now is as good a time as any to go for them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I saw Circon play the T9 yesterday evening and he was really unimpressed, if not very frustrated. He spent quite a lot saying "don't play these tanks". I think it might be due to the low speed of those machines, it makes really hard to relocate once you clear your flank; he lost a few games due to fastcap: he cleared his flank quickly, but then wasn't able to relocate to defend. I didn't play those tanks myself yet, but with what I saw I don't think I will go past the T6, if I ever happen to waste some free exp to get it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

it's probably just the fact that people don't know where to shoot them

One of the key features of the line is that there is no weakspots. You don't need to know where to shoot them, either you pen the front or you dont.

T5 is probably worth grinding up, the rest of the line is bad. T8 might be decent, havent had experience in it. T10 looks to be the worst tank on the line (other than the t4).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tier 1-4 Who plays those tiers anyway...

The tier 5 is overpowered as fuck, the tank is basicly an oversized version of the old KV-1S at tier 5 (no armor, decent mobility (lol at 100 ton  tank going at 40 kp/h) stupidly big gun).

The tier 6 is basicly a slower KV-2 with decent frontal armor and without any real weakspots (lol at that >200 EFA LFP tough)

The tier 7 is meh

The tier 8 is amusing because it gets a relativly decent derpgun while being able to mount a vertical stabilizer

The tier 9 and 10 are just victims of the current gold/arty-meta at high tiers, which makes their only gimmick (their armor) more or less useless (though they are more or less immune frontally against creditammo), their guns have some decent alpha but are overall mediocre at best (a mix between the E-100 and the Maus in terms of firepower).

Also, their goldammo is useless.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd say the line is not for people who care about WR but for those rare (10-20%) battles where you are top trier (or against bad pen higher trier) and the enemies are bads you will stomp like in no other tank. I have a strange feeling that the T6 will be amzing for farming Pools.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tier 1-4 Who plays those tiers anyway...

Someone who specializes in sealclubbing those tiers stated that the tier 2 is op in the current map meta

Edited by Statpadderer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ive really enjoyed the line. im about 40k short of the t9. first line ive actually grinded in a long time! im diggin it! the derp is real

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Any real strategy with tanks that are slow, have low sprem pen and are penned not acording to skill but whether your enemy has high pen? Or is it the pinacle or what WG has been doing with corridor meta and you simply drive forward to your favorite corridor, blap things and get blapped. You win if you are better at shoting things in front of you aka world of peek a boom?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've gotten to the Tier 5 O-I Exp.  My very brief thoughts on Tiers 1-4, with more extensive comment on the Tier 5 O-I.  Tiers 1-4 are listed by tier rather than name because I can't remember their names:

Tier 1: Unusual for the tier in that it has real armor.  Elited it in 5 matches with 100% WR, vanity prevents me from playing it further.  Currently serving as auxiliary barracks for the 100% crew that came with it.

Tier 2: Supposedly OP according to some, breezed through it too quickly to tell.  Sold, crew moved.

Tier 3: Pretty meh, weak armor, meh mobility, decent gun.

Tier 4: Upgraded version of the Tier 3; weak armor, meh mobility, pretty solid gun with fairly good alpha.  Weakish, although not the D2/AMX38-level worthless dog that some make it out to be.  Got five kills my first match out with a 75% crew and only binos, camo net and toolbox for equipment.  Sold, crew moved.

Tier 5: The O-I is the first tank whose name I can remember, and once you play one, you'll see why.

• Mobility: Pretty mobile right out of the box, really.  Stock engine and tracks with an 85% no-skill crew and it moves okay.  The only Tier 5 heavies with better mobility are the T1 HT and probably the KV-1S.  I think I've hit 43 kph on gentle downhill slopes, and uphill performance is decent too, although not at the same level as the T1 HT, and turns okay too.  This is all very inexplicable in that the HP:weight ratio with the TOP engine is only 12:1, so I have to assume the terrain resistance values are absurdly good.

• Armor: The armor should bounce more than it does - and with 75/75/70 on the hill, if you do a diamond stance and point a corner at the enemy it would bounce more, except that the turret is only 75mm as well.  It's a hexagon with vertical sides, so even with the worst angling on the turret, with an edge pointed your way, it's probably still no more than 85-90mm effective - not enough to stop much of anything in the tier, and unable to even bounce much from Tier 4 tanks.

• Firepower: Starts out with a derp gun that is slightly better than the 105mm derp.  Slightly better alpha and pen, I think trivially better accuracy with trivially worse aim time.  Ignore the 75mm guns until everything else is researched; this doesn't have the frontal armor or quite the mobility to be played as a T1 HT - a 75mm gun won't cut it.  Go directly to the top gun, which is high alpha, workable accuracy, workable aim time and bloom.  I can't remember off hand what the depression is, but it looks workable too.  The standard AP pen (130) is fine for the tier, but the gold AP (no APCR or HEAT) is pretty crap at 150; 150 is pretty crap gold pen for Tier 5 overall.  Still, the alpha is a real saving grace; I loaded gold and blapped a Panther twice through the front turret for over 300 each time, and that feels really good.  HE alpha is good enough that you can use it to take reasonable amounts of damage off higher tier tanks your anemic gold pen can't scratch, and it's great for harassing AT2s.

TL, DR bullet points and research chain:

• Rammer, vents, GLD.  I suppose you could swap out optics for the GLD, but I wouldn't; minimizing exposure is critical when peekabooming in a soft (well, soft-ish) tank, and you won't win any vision games in a tank the side of Rhode Island.  You're there to blow shit up, not spot.  Blap red tanks and leave the scouting to tanks that aren't tracked buildings.

• Tracks first.  Tracks aren't necessary for other modules but are cheap and do improve mobility.

• Load that 12cm derp right.  Carry none of the standard AP round; it has the same pen as the HE round with inferior alpha and no ability to do non-penning damage, and is therefore useless.  Carry about 10 gold, and the rest HE.  Change their order to HE-gold-AP to match other derp loadouts.

• The 10cm gun is your top priority.  The 12cm derp is serviceable to this point, but the 10cm long-barrel gun makes the tank, and is the most critical module by far.  Ammo capacity is huge, so I'd say load maybe 10 gold (gold round is an improved AP, not HEAT), 10 HE, the rest standard AP.

• Stay at medium range.  The gun's accuracy is decent but insufficient for true sniping, and closing to very short range will get you penned constantly; yeah, you have "no weak spots", I know, except for that huge weak spot on top of your tank called a "turret".  Angle the hull around 40° off the current threat and 75/75/70 hull armor is sufficient to bounce some stuff from people who aim center mass instead of at your turret.

• Peekaboom to stay alive.  You don't tank shots in this thing; the armor won't allow it.  You have the alpha and gun handling to be an excellent peekaboomer - so do it.

• Be aggressive.  You have crap armor and crap pen if you're bottom tier, but you have sufficient alpha to piss off any tank you see.  Just remember that this thing is definitely fast enough to get you into trouble, but not fast enough to get you out of trouble.

• Research order: tracks, 10cm gun, Tier 6 O-I, engine, 75mm guns.  Radios should have been researched from previous tanks.

FINAL THOUGHTS:

• Why does a 100 ton tank not have more hit points than this?

• Why is a 100 ton tank so mobile?

• People say that the thing is OP.  That might well be true; it definitely dominates Tier 5 matches, and will continue to do so until people learn to shoot the goddamned turret and stop sitting there letting this tank aim down on them.  It seems really lackluster when bottom tier, due to the crap gold pen...but if you do get a pen, the alpha means it's really painful even for a Tier 7 HT.  When bottom tier, I've had a number of zero-damage matches where I got two-shot, and I've had a number of matches where I used the alpha and mobility to lead the team.  Time will tell.  If they do nerf it, either gun handling or terrain resistance are the most likely targets.

• GET THE DAMNED THING even if you aren't going all the way to Tier 10.  It's a very unique tank and extremely fun to play.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I jumped into the line at tier 6, and I must say that unless you're a Big Dumb Box Tank enthusiast as I am, that's the last you should bother with. There are certain inherent difficulties the entire line has.

First, artillery loves you. Let's never mind that it could deal more damage by penetrating the AMX 50 100 parked next to you, chipping away at you is all they can think of. The tier 5 and 6 are about as large as, if not larger, than the cone of fire of an FV304, so it's hard for them to miss as well. Arty AP is a day wrecker.

Second, in the middle tiers your team has no idea what to do with you. You're just too large, they will crowd you in and make it difficult to work, particularly in urban areas where combat is already difficult thanks to your comically antique hull designs and mammoth footprint. I tried for some while to be patient and cautious before I concluded there there's little more to be done than ignore them. You weigh between 100 and 160 tons and have 1,100 or 1,200 horsepower. Just shove them out of the way if they're an inconvenience. I'm not saying actively crowd them out, but if you are on a corner and need to maneuver, fuck 'em.

The tier 6 is fairly reasonable as a KV-2 with better gun handling. The 7 is entirely forgettable save for it being the tallest tank in the game. The 8 is comically bad and exists exclusively for "the giggles". Tier 9 is not that great, mostly take all the good parts of the 4502 B and make it a bit worse. Tier 10 is like a fusion of the E-100 and Maus that's a bit worse than either of them.

At the least, though, the tier 9 and 10 can drive into the Erlenberg river and keep fighting.

Edit: As luck would have it, the guy in my clan who publishes regular reports on all members of the many RDDT clans around the globe has posted one today, which contains information on the Japanese heavies. You need only look at the tier 9 stats to see how terrible the Type 4 Heavy is performing relative to other tier 9s.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd say the trier 6 is worth if you want to do heavy tanks missions with it. It + FCM are great for missions that are not t9-10 missions. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just took a look at average damage values and discovered that the Type 4 has yielded lower average values than the M103. Now, that alone isn't terribly notable, however there's two things to consider there.

1) I jumped into the Type 4 fully kitted out. No stock grind.

2) Those aren't actually my M103 stats. I barely played the M103. Those are my "hard-grind the tier 9 T34 from stock" stats. If that doesn't trigger PTSD flashbacks in you, let me explain by referencing a response I once wrote to "What was your worst grind in this game?"

Kids these days don't know how lucky they are.

Tier 9 T34. Welcome to a tank with 170mm or 180mm penetration stock. You could get the 105mm from the T29/T32 (after ~25k spent on suspension), then you could have 198mm penetration, at tier 9 (at a time when the IS-4 was also tier 9 and was armed with the 130mm S-70) for the next ~85,000 XP. No meaningful hull armor, you're not that mobile until getting the engine and suspension...ugh. This is all in an era before premium for credits was available. My M103 stats are still burdened by that horror.

There aren't actually any adjectives I can use in condemnation of the Type 4 that wouldn't be superfluous in light of that particular bit of information. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The 8 is comically bad and exists exclusively for "the giggles".

Can you explain a bit? The T8 is, in my opinion, significantly better than any of the other T7+ Japanese heavies. It has a better gun than any of the others, better armor than the T7 and T10, and better mobility than the T9 or T10.

The quick reload on the 150mm is really nice, and coupled with leagues better accuracy/handling than other 150/152mm derp options, you don't have to worry about the horrendous damage output of non-penning HE. Even in the unlikely situation where the O-Ho never gets a chance to pen with HE or the chance to switch to AP & your DPM gets cut in half, your damage output is still comparable to some other T8 heavies (think Lowe, T34).

It's definitely "bad", but it's bad in the way all japanese tanks are bad. Slow. Gigantic. Vulnerable to higher tiers, goldspam, and arty. Bad accuracy. It doesn't bring its own problems to the table though, unlike all of the others. The O-Ni's damage output, with either gun, is horrendous. The Type 4 is IMMENSELY slow and has terrible ammorack issues. The Type 5 both has a terrible gun and the armor is much more vulnerable than the others. The O-Ho is just the best choice here, imho.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 

Even in the unlikely situation where the O-Ho never gets a chance to pen with HE or the chance to switch to AP & your DPM gets cut in half, your damage output is still comparable to some other T8 heavies (think Lowe, T34).

I doubt it could be comparable to the T34 or Lowe (both of which are unimpressive vehicles to begin with). Non-penetrating HE loses half damage, so the absolute max you'd get out of that is 455 damage against 0mm of armor, but you wouldn't not penetrate against 0mm of armor. Even a direct impact on a 100mm plate leaves you with only 345 damage every 17 seconds (instead of 400 every 15 on the T34 (using base reloads since I don't have equipped values on hand)). Also, the difference between 0.54 and 0.35 accuracy, the pedestrian muzzle velocity of only 500-540 m/s, etc.

The O-Ho is garbage because it has all those structural issues and a weak gun selection. Derp guns are fun and all but at tier 8 a tier 6 one doesn't offer enough when it's tied to a platform as deficient as the O-Ho.

Edit: Forgot to mention something. Run into an E-100, Maus, IS-7, etc. What do you do other than derp them for 200 damage every 17 seconds? I'm not saying a lot of other tier 8s are in a great position, the disparity between damage output and HP is too great, but at least they don't lose 80% of their damage to passive defenses.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Getting 350-400 damage rolls is the norm (even against immensely thick opponents like the Maus or E-75) due to the ease at which the gun can aim. Unlike something like the KV-2/T49 or even O-I, you don't have to just lob the shell at your opponents' general direction or even "this general location on their armor" without aiming for three years. The biggest benefit to this is that you can consistently (like, every single shot consistently) land rounds that will splash onto the hull roof via turret base shots, which invalidates basically any tanks' actual armor values. You'll be hitting a Maus almost as hard as you would something like a T44.

There's definitely something to be said about the miserable accuracy in longer range combat, but in the vast majority of situations you'd actually put a bentobox in, you'll have no more issue dealing damage than, say, a T34 would. The raw damage output is slightly lower than the T34 (and slightly higher than the Lowe), but the T34's gun handling is also absolutely horrendous compared to the 150mm on the O-Ho, so in close combat they aren't very different. And again, this is assuming you never pen, which is a silly assumption - I've certainly had games where every shot pens, and the norm is 1-2 per game. At that point the O-Ho easily pulls ahead of lower damage output heavies like the T34/Lowe/KV-4. There's also a point to be made about the module damage, but it's hard to quantify how pertinent that is.

I certainly don't expect anyone to bother with watching replays, but here's a few games that demonstrate how capable the O-Ho's damage output is, especially combined with how well the armor holds up:

O-Ho, South Coast, T8

O-Ho, Stalingrad, T10

O-Ho, Mountain Pass, T8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Getting 350-400 damage rolls is the norm (even against immensely thick opponents like the Maus or E-75) due to the ease at which the gun can aim. Unlike something like the KV-2/T49 or even O-I, you don't have to just lob the shell at your opponents' general direction or even "this general location on their armor" without aiming for three years. The biggest benefit to this is that you can consistently (like, every single shot consistently) land rounds that will splash onto the hull roof via turret base shots, which invalidates basically any tanks' actual armor values. You'll be hitting a Maus almost as hard as you would something like a T44.

There's definitely something to be said about the miserable accuracy in longer range combat, but in the vast majority of situations you'd actually put a bentobox in, you'll have no more issue dealing damage than, say, a T34 would. The raw damage output is slightly lower than the T34 (and slightly higher than the Lowe), but the T34's gun handling is also absolutely horrendous compared to the 150mm on the O-Ho, so in close combat they aren't very different. And again, this is assuming you never pen, which is a silly assumption - I've certainly had games where every shot pens, and the norm is 1-2 per game. At that point the O-Ho easily pulls ahead of lower damage output heavies like the T34/Lowe/KV-4. There's also a point to be made about the module damage, but it's hard to quantify how pertinent that is.

I certainly don't expect anyone to bother with watching replays, but here's a few games that demonstrate how capable the O-Ho's damage output is, especially combined with how well the armor holds up:

O-Ho, South Coast, T8

O-Ho, Stalingrad, T10

O-Ho, Mountain Pass, T8

This. Especially if you see your enemies can't pen them just wait long enough and shoot the roof. The whole line should be named just shoot the roof. 

 

Also I agree about the T34 comparison. The tank is way less frustrating because it derps you way less often. Not to mention this thing is very effective at immobilizing peaking heavies. It is a very annoying tank to play against if the enemy Oho is a skilled player who wants to harrass you

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

so far:

  • tier 2, no armor and slow, only thing good is OP dpm / alpha dmg, it does get shit pen aswell, its simply not good
  • tier 3, OP gun, enough mobility, and just enough armor to resist some machine guns, it has 1 terrible con, the miniturret, it totally ruins the tank, without that, i would have kept it
  • tier 4, due to special mm + good enough HEAT ammo + OP alpha dmg / dpm, its actually quite good, it does get 1 shot by derp guns a ton, so again not a keeper, but actually suprising good
  • O-I Exp, 1400 dpb now, my winratio is also crawling up, while also no armor, its fast + OP gun, i will keep it for a while, also 2100 exp as max game and no ace tanker, so i guess more ppl are liking this tank ^^
  • O-I, still a poor crew (90%), but not impressed yet, the armor seems quite poor, the gun is slow and most important the mobility is ghetto, its also in a tier where the competition is though and where it meets a ton of powerfull tier 8 tanks, all in all, dont know

ps: the only type 4 i saw did nothing, O Ho is rare, and O ni seems to do ok, especially top tier those O Ni things seems deadly, but also vs tier 8 it seems to do ``ok``, in terms of balance, the tier 4 is bad, the tier 6 needs a small buff and the tier 5 a nerf. also the line as a whole might need a mobility buff, make the engine 1300 hp and perhaps reduce weight a bit, no need to make them all move like a Maus (KV4 speed would make them vastly better and less frustrating)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

so far:

  • tier 2, no armor and slow, only thing good is OP dpm / alpha dmg, it does get shit pen aswell, its simply not good
  • tier 3, OP gun, enough mobility, and just enough armor to resist some machine guns, it has 1 terrible con, the miniturret, it totally ruins the tank, without that, i would have kept it
  • tier 4, due to special mm + good enough HEAT ammo + OP alpha dmg / dpm, its actually quite good, it does get 1 shot by derp guns a ton, so again not a keeper, but actually suprising good
  • O-I Exp, 1400 dpb now, my winratio is also crawling up, while also no armor, its fast + OP gun, i will keep it for a while, also 2100 exp as max game and no ace tanker, so i guess more ppl are liking this tank ^^
  • O-I, still a poor crew (90%), but not impressed yet, the armor seems quite poor, the gun is slow and most important the mobility is ghetto, its also in a tier where the competition is though and where it meets a ton of powerfull tier 8 tanks, all in all, dont know

ps: the only type 4 i saw did nothing, O Ho is rare, and O ni seems to do ok, especially top tier those O Ni things seems deadly, but also vs tier 8 it seems to do ``ok``, in terms of balance, the tier 4 is bad, the tier 6 needs a small buff and the tier 5 a nerf. also the line as a whole might need a mobility buff, make the engine 1300 hp and perhaps reduce weight a bit, no need to make them all move like a Maus (KV4 speed would make them vastly better and less frustrating)

I assumed you would like the T6. What gun ? Run ap and it will reward you. The armor is amazing, you just have to know against what and in what position

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I assumed you would like the T6. What gun ? Run ap and it will reward you. The armor is amazing, you just have to know against what and in what position

Oh, the mm has also been crap so far, almost never top tier, i also tried the derp gun, but that was also a waste of time.

ps: and i havent played slowpoke tanks in months, so need to get used a bit to beiing sloooooow

edit: after playing it a bit more: Its shit!

Unlike other slow tanks, AT7, KV4, this tank has no redeeming qualitys, it doesnt have a OP gun (at7), it doesnt have the OP armor KV4 has, it not total OP except for speed (VK-P)

Its a medicore armored tank with an acceptable gun and no mobility, the amount of buffing / nerfing needed to fix this is unreal either:

  • buff side armor to 150mm
  • give it 175mm turret armor + reduce weight with 30 ton
  • reduce weight 30 ton + dpm buff

It simply needs either more armor, more speed or more speed and a better gun, you get nuked on every map where there is arty, high tiers rape you, and your always late at the fight, and when you do arrive, your gun and armor are simply to weak, you cant gun down ppl like an AT15 can, you cant eat tier 9 heavy tank shells like KV3 can, you cant waddle into 4-5-6 same and lower tier tanks and simply figth them all at once like VK P can. Its a big, slow, worthless turd....

Edited by GehakteMolen

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.