Krollin

What could be improved?

23 posts in this topic

Apart from private constraints on my time I have found myself playing WoWs less and less and I am not missing it either.

The following are my opinions influenced by the things I see in the game and the opinions of other, better players than me.

The reasons for this lie with the current state of the game especially at Tiers after 6.

BB's and CV's are kings of the heap. CA/CL's and DD's are marginalised.

Battleships are probably the ship class that has less balance issues than anything else.
CV's, especially Midway, are too good at Tier 8+ and the Midway is a true nightmare.

Cruisers have no role which sufficiently rewards you for playing it and are easy bait for Battleships.
Shooting down aircraft provides no reward other than BB drivers being happy that you have done it.

Destroyer usefulness is limited to the spread of aircraft on the map.

I think the problems with fire damage are mild in comparison, ship class balance at high tiers is way out of whack.

The question is, what could  be changed to improve things in the later tiers?

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Obviously for cruisers I think they should start giving them the ability to heal at tier 6. Another thing is better xp rewards for shooting down planes, that would help balance later tiers I think

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Obviously for cruisers I think they should start giving them the ability to heal at tier 6. Another thing is better xp rewards for shooting down planes, that would help balance later tiers I think

XP for shooting down aircraft is a given, it is a massive oversight not to have better rewards for cruisers shooting down aircraft.
You do get XP for doing it, ~30 aircraft is equivalent to the XP you get for killing the CV that launched them. This should be improved for Cruisers.

Cruiser heals only help so much. You can only heal 10% of citadel damage which is only logical because you have just had a big hole blown in the innards of your ship.

Make BB AP rounds less likely to fuse (increase the fusing threshold)? This would not affect BB vs BB combat but make CA's less appealing as a target.

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That would massively increase the frustration factor for battleships. It might be better to adjust citadel strength to turn some of the citadel shots into straight penetrations. A solid hit would still hurt but would be far less likely to instantly kill.

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I think that by using some creativity, Wargaming could bring relevance to the Cruiser class pretty quickly.  Right now Capping is a pretty egalitarian affair, but maybe by doubling the rate at which Cruisers CAP, halving the rate at which BB's cap and keeping the rate at which DD's cap the same - cruisers could become more important towards the end game.  They could go into an interesting area by assigning Naval Gunfire Support targets - ie Islands as a form of Cap that have to be shot by HE for cap points.  The high rate of fire from cruisers and even some DD's could be much more useful in this role.  As others have mentioned, XP from shooting down airplanes should be rewarded more heavily, as well as detection and spotting damage from destroyers. 

Cruisers were traditionally used/envisioned as an additional AA screen (WWII) and a primary DD screen for battleships, no Commander would try to use cruisers to  1 v 1 a BB, they would be told to break off and retreat.  That doesn't work for a game in which we get to reuse the ship next battle and expect to fight to the death for a win every time.  Unless WG sculpts victory conditions to prioritize the use of CA's in accomplishing them, they will be underutilized by experienced players who will prefer the sheer damage dealing and healing available to BB's.

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That would massively increase the frustration factor for battleships. It might be better to adjust citadel strength to turn some of the citadel shots into straight penetrations. A solid hit would still hurt but would be far less likely to instantly kill.

That would be a better fix, yes.

I think that by using some creativity, Wargaming could bring relevance to the Cruiser class pretty quickly.  Right now Capping is a pretty egalitarian affair, but maybe by doubling the rate at which Cruisers CAP, halving the rate at which BB's cap and keeping the rate at which DD's cap the same - cruisers could become more important towards the end game.  They could go into an interesting area by assigning Naval Gunfire Support targets - ie Islands as a form of Cap that have to be shot by HE for cap points.  The high rate of fire from cruisers and even some DD's could be much more useful in this role.  As others have mentioned, XP from shooting down airplanes should be rewarded more heavily, as well as detection and spotting damage from destroyers. 

Cruisers were traditionally used/envisioned as an additional AA screen (WWII) and a primary DD screen for battleships, no Commander would try to use cruisers to  1 v 1 a BB, they would be told to break off and retreat.  That doesn't work for a game in which we get to reuse the ship next battle and expect to fight to the death for a win every time.  Unless WG sculpts victory conditions to prioritize the use of CA's in accomplishing them, they will be underutilized by experienced players who will prefer the sheer damage dealing and healing available to BB's.

Capping is one aspect of the game, when not in domination mode, which causes me to want to go AFK. Cap points + kill points works (most of the time), the other crap doesn't.
Giving cruisers a role in capping faster is only going to encourage them to get into caps and get rekt faster.
Having DD's cap faster is something that is more appropriate to their other abilities though.

They need to add in spotting rewards for DD's. Well really any ship that spots, but DD's would benefit the most. 

Spotting is not really worth it, damage assistance would. This would open a whole can of worms because planes are by far the best spotters out there and CV drivers don't need the help.
Yes, you could restrict the rewards to ships ofc.

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That would massively increase the frustration factor for battleships. It might be better to adjust citadel strength to turn some of the citadel shots into straight penetrations. A solid hit would still hurt but would be far less likely to instantly kill.

I've had similar thoughts.  Perhaps even reduce citadel HP while leaving ship HP alone.  They'll still get rekt when under BB assault, but would be less vulnerable to a one shot because they were broadside for a moment in the middle of a turn.  

 

I think CV plane totals need to be reduced, especially at the later tiers.  TX CVs can use their planes stupidly with little to no risk of running out.  Perhaps, instead of fewer planes, they could add in pilot skill values.  Your first planes are "A" level pilots.  Veterans who function in the way planes currently do.  Lose some of those vets, and you're down to B and C level pilots.  Those guys are not goign to make straight torp runs, will die faster when under AA/fighter attack, etc.  Your 3rd or 4th rate pilots might be forced into panic drops more easily.  A little complex to model something like experience or morale into planes, but it makes sense in my mind.  

 

In order to be useful, Cruisers have to do something better than anything else.  And that thing has to be valuable.  Their ability to cause panicked drops is nice.  Perhaps that can be expanded upon.  A higher spotting/lower detection range could let them invisisnipe, but that might prove too powerful.  Perhaps fighter floatplanes should be cruiser only?  Reduce BB AA?  Steal a page from AW's playbook, and let targets designated by cruisers take more damage?  Reinforce the support role, and let BBs with a nearby cruiser be more accurate?

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My biggest issue right now is the Midway and cruiser balance. There is almost no reason if you solo q to play a high tier cruiser apart from the Zao. As a high tier cruiser you are forced to play at range because if you come within ~13km or less you will get wrecked by BB's. I see a lot of people ditching the cruisers and going for the BB's at higher tiers. There is also no reward for teamwork at all side from winning which no one seems to care about.

Should they make cruiser shells faster or lower the arc? Or give them a designated target increase like Deus mentioned above.

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I think CV plane totals need to be reduced, especially at the later tiers.  TX CVs can use their planes stupidly with little to no risk of running out.  Perhaps, instead of fewer planes, they could add in pilot skill values.  Your first planes are "A" level pilots.  Veterans who function in the way planes currently do.  Lose some of those vets, and you're down to B and C level pilots.  Those guys are not goign to make straight torp runs, will die faster when under AA/fighter attack, etc.  Your 3rd or 4th rate pilots might be forced into panic drops more easily.  A little complex to model something like experience or morale into planes, but it makes sense in my mind.  

A simpler, and probably more likely to happen band-aid fix, is to just reduce the HP of the planes themselves, and/or increase the AA engagement range of the ships. I feel that mid-tier CV balance is pretty good where, if you attack a single ship you are likely to loose at least 1 plane, if you attack a battle-line with coordinated BB and CA, you're likely to loose the entire squadron w/out accomplishing anything.

In order to be useful, Cruisers have to do something better than anything else.  And that thing has to be valuable.  Their ability to cause panicked drops is nice.  Perhaps that can be expanded upon.  A higher spotting/lower detection range could let them invisisnipe, but that might prove too powerful.  Perhaps fighter floatplanes should be cruiser only?  Reduce BB AA?  Steal a page from AW's playbook, and let targets designated by cruisers take more damage?  Reinforce the support role, and let BBs with a nearby cruiser be more accurate?

I think they should increase their AA firepower and range. The problem w/ CA AA armaments (at least USN lines) is that they aren't much better at AA than BBs in the same tier; certainly not enough to offset all the armor and fire power they give up for it. 

 

 

 

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I think they should increase their AA firepower and range. The problem w/ CA AA armaments (at least USN lines) is that they aren't much better at AA than BBs in the same tier; certainly not enough to offset all the armor and fire power they give up for it. 

 

 

 

Right.

I like the principle of AA boost causing problems with attack planes (panic torp spreads, etc.)  Problem is (or at least was, I haven't played CV in a long time) that problem can be avoided if you aim the drop before your planes get into AA boost range.  Does that still happen?  If so, AA boost should either force an early drop, or a panic spread, or even force the planes to abort and fall back a kilometer or two, even if the drop has already been aimed.  Make the AA boost less of a DPS vs planes buff, and more of an anti-plane debuff.  

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Right.

I like the principle of AA boost causing problems with attack planes (panic torp spreads, etc.)  Problem is (or at least was, I haven't played CV in a long time) that problem can be avoided if you aim the drop before your planes get into AA boost range.  Does that still happen?  If so, AA boost should either force an early drop, or a panic spread, or even force the planes to abort and fall back a kilometer or two, even if the drop has already been aimed.  Make the AA boost less of a DPS vs planes buff, and more of an anti-plane debuff.  

I wish AA rating and the panic mechanic were simply merged, and not reliant upon a cooldown.  As it is right now, AA is too much of an "all or nothing" defense.  You either shoot down a couple of planes before they drop their torpedoes, or you don't.  I think the highest-rated AA ships should pretty much just have a passive "panic bubble" around them that's a bit less effective than the current cooldown version, and then have the panic bubble scale down from there based on AA rating.  This would reflect the idea that planes coming under heavy AA are going to be less likely to keep their tight grouping.  Give CV commanders an optional skill for "Iron Discipline" or some nonsense that can lessen the effects, at the cost of another skill.

As it is now, ships either have really good AA, or it's largely worthless.  There's not much of a middle ground at the moment.

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That's interesting.  I'd take it a step further.  Make it dependent on range.  Make CV drivers choose between tight groupings if they drop outside of the AA bubble, or increasingly random drop patterns as they get close to heavy AA.  Let them weight the risks that way.  Might be worthwhile to do close range manual drops against isolated or weak AA targets, but the spread cause fewer hits.  A long range drop keeps the planes safe, but gives the target more time to dodge.  If they do not dodge, however, you may hit with more torps.  

 

Of course, that doesn't work for DBs...

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Either AA is not up to the job of killing the planes or the planes are too fast and/or can drop too close to give AA a chance to do its job.

I don't propose a simulation of a TB run but right now planes can simply dance around AA and are way too manoeuvrable.
Why should all aircraft be able to turn on a dime at silly speeds? Why can aircraft fly at silly speeds at all?
Not to mention DBs diving under the water etc...

Increase AA range for medium and especially heavy AA guns (on cruisers only if necessary). Differentiate between AA Cruisers and Gun Cruisers.
Des Moine with 203mm AA anyone?
Have Defensive Fire truly put up a barrage so that any aircraft in range get pasted.
Have Defensive Fire also apply to light and medium AA.
Increase minimum torpedo drop range, currently you can drop at silly distances.
Make planes less manoeuvrable.

Remove autodrops. Why should CV players get a firing aid?

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Keep autodrops.  They're easier to dodge.

If you increase the min drop distance for TB's then you have a better chance of dodging them anyway.

Why should CV players get the advantage of fire and forget for anything except for fighters?
We vilify people using mods to give you aiming points, why is it ok for CV drivers to get this as part of the game. Autodrop sucks, why have it?

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Simple answer is:  Because handling up to 6 squads simultaneously is too much for the average player.  Some things need to be simplified, for gameplay purposes.  Same reason why we don't have to dictate gun elevation and bearing to multiple turrets at once.  Just pick a spot and click.  

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Simple answer is:  Because handling up to 6 squads simultaneously is too much for the average player.  Some things need to be simplified, for gameplay purposes.  Same reason why we don't have to dictate gun elevation and bearing to multiple turrets at once.  Just pick a spot and click.  

So....then the perfect solution to the CV balance problem would be: limit it to 2 or squads. Less planes in the air = less problems for other classes.

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Problem is (or at least was, I haven't played CV in a long time) that problem can be avoided if you aim the drop before your planes get into AA boost range.  Does that still happen? 

I know the drop pattern auto-changes  if they get engaged by planes before it locks in and turns yellow, but I don't know if it is true w/ the boosted AA bubble. Will need to test this. 

That's interesting.  I'd take it a step further.  Make it dependent on range.  Make CV drivers choose between tight groupings if they drop outside of the AA bubble, or increasingly random drop patterns as they get close to heavy AA.  Let them weight the risks that way.  Might be worthwhile to do close range manual drops against isolated or weak AA targets, but the spread cause fewer hits.  A long range drop keeps the planes safe, but gives the target more time to dodge.  If they do not dodge, however, you may hit with more torps.  

 

Of course, that doesn't work for DBs...

Exactly my line of thought, you can get nice dense pack of torps if you drop at long range, or a spread if you drop at close range. Although IJN aerial torps would probably have to change since their range is pretty short as it is. 

You can just make it not applied to DBs. While we are at it, I thing DB drop needs to change from a random pattern to something that's fixed. Either in a line or some kind of zig-zag drop pattern, right now it is so stupid that you can do a perfect manual DB drop and hit nothing cuz RNG hates you. 

I don't propose a simulation of a TB run but right now planes can simply dance around AA and are way too manoeuvrable.
Why should all aircraft be able to turn on a dime at silly speeds? Why can aircraft fly at silly speeds at all?
Not to mention DBs diving under the water etc...

The animation of the planes probably have nothing to do with where the planes are in the game engine. Most likely, the planes are simulated as a group with pre-set animation played based on what the squadron, as a whole, is doing. This is analogous to how TIE fighters and X-wings are handled in Star Wars: Armada if you have ever played that miniature/board game. 

 

Increase minimum torpedo drop range, currently you can drop at silly distances.
Make planes less manoeuvrable.

Remove autodrops. Why should CV players get a firing aid?

I think min torpedo range is better handled with what Deus was suggesting before, make the spread pattern large if dropped close, but tight if dropped away from AA def. bubble. 

Nerfing squadron maneuverability would make planes stupid easy to dodge to the point of uselessness, it's already relatively easy to dodge a set of torps if you pay attention and act early. And this does not deter good CV plays from accurate torp drops from a longer distance. The animation of the maneuverability of individual planes has nothing to do with anything in the game engine. 

DD gets torp firing aid and most ppl are still terrible at launching torps. I really don't see a problem with auto drops... they are the easiest things to dodge ever. By far the problem is with the manual drops. 

Simple answer is:  Because handling up to 6 squads simultaneously is too much for the average player.  Some things need to be simplified, for gameplay purposes.  Same reason why we don't have to dictate gun elevation and bearing to multiple turrets at once.  Just pick a spot and click.  

Possible solution at high tier is to increase the number of planes per squadron instead of increasing the number of squadrons. So IJN gets 6 and USN get 8 planes per squad at tier 9 & 10 for example.

 

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I would say adjusting the planes' behavior when subjected to AA would do a lot to make AA relevant, disrupting flight paths, damaging planes, etc... Would make cruisers with their usually better that average AA an effective screen for BBs.

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 Problem is (or at least was, I haven't played CV in a long time) that problem can be avoided if you aim the drop before your planes get into AA boost range.  Does that still happen?  

Tested it, the drop spread turns into the panic drop spread as soon as the planes enters an activated AA Buff even if you manually target the drop when the planes are outside of the buffed AA bubbles. 

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Since you mostly attack with 2+ TB squads this is no problem at all for a skilled cv player. The dodge pattern for any ship is mostly the same, turn into one TB squad, focus the one coming from your side. If you are good with TBs you still shit on any ship. Sometimes panic drops feel even worse because the spread is not one you can expect and calculate so easy.

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