leggasiini

Carrier thread

92 posts in this topic

Decided to open a thread for skycancer carriers, obviously because there is NO threads for carriers.

Carriers are comparable to sky pigs...because:

- both sits back (although not always on carrier's case but still outside detecting range if possible so whatever) at base/behind allies and clicks

- both deals hella amount of damage

- both are very vulnerable at close range fight; often dead when found

- both are priority targets

- both frustates hella amount of their opponents.

There is key difference, however: RNG. As you know, one of the main reason why arty is cancer (for everyone basicallly) is because RNG. Arty is kinda no-skill RNG machine. Carriers are nearly opposite: they arent complete RNG and not only takes skill, they take actually quite ALOT of skill (or atleast in my opinion). 

Im at Ryujo ATM on IJN CVs and mostly use strike loadout because those moments when you land +5 torpedoes at BB... although i ocassionaly use air superioty loadout. Havent tried US CVs, yet, but will get eventually there aswell.

Whats your thoughts about CVs?

 

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2 big differences for me with carrier play vs arty.  

1. Carriers require a certain amount of active play.  You can't really just sit back and click and expect to do damage.  If you don't actively manage your aircraft then you will have very limited effectiveness..

2. Carriers can provide direct support for the surface forces.  Depending on your carriers load-out, you will spend part of your time defending your team, and part of your time actively hunting the enemy fleet.

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Been awhile since I played WoWS. Have they nerfed manual drops at all? My memories of carriers is getting rekt by TB's because they can drop within 1.5km of my ship...

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You don't actively manage your shells in artillery, and artillery rounds can't be shot down.

There's an element of counterplay in WoWs if your team bothers to set up an AA defense. This applies to both sides. (at least in mid-tiers)

And carriers have shit like fighters that can scout and provide air cover for the entire team depending on your fancy.

Carriers make players have control of so many more options, which would explain the skill part in using carriers. They give a player disproportionate leverage if used right, as opposed to RNGJesus and CookieClicker Manifesto.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Devo said:

2 big differences for me with carrier play vs arty.  

 

Lets make them 3....

3. If you go closer to the battle (targets) you increase your DPM (that's the only class that can do it in both games wot/wows).

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36 minutes ago, Kostis_Larsson said:

Lets make them 3....

3. If you go closer to the battle (targets) you increase your DPM (that's the only class that can do it in both games wot/wows).

That's is definitely true with the carriers.  If you can reduce that flight time you become a serious force multiplier.  You just have to temper the aggressive nature so as not to push to hard into gun range.  Especially with the slow low tier carriers on the US side. 

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Low tier CV's are short on planes, so run out quite often. Early scouting can really mess with other CV's head and make them hold fighters back. If you make an early TB run and just damage the enemy CV, you can really help your team. CV's require a lot more skill than arty and usually you are quite busy for the entire match. There a few videos about how to play CV's on Youtube.

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I finally bought a carrier since these missions give me pearls for them.  I found the Langley amazingly easy to play.  Torp bombers are absolute cake.  The bogue, I just went with the fighter heavy option to ensure air supremacy and then spot dds and do a piddly amount of damage with dive bombers.  Alt click strafes are *hella cake*.

Where the hell is the skill again?

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7 hours ago, FrodoTSolo said:

I finally bought a carrier since these missions give me pearls for them.  I found the Langley amazingly easy to play.  Torp bombers are absolute cake.  The bogue, I just went with the fighter heavy option to ensure air supremacy and then spot dds and do a piddly amount of damage with dive bombers.  Alt click strafes are *hella cake*.

Where the hell is the skill again?

Playing in tiers where the enemy aren't retarded and most of the enemy have good to excellent AA. 

CVs are not very meta either way. The way teams blob at high tier restricts their utility and since you need a fighter set up to counter their fighter set up or be useless you end up with dull games that last a long time with long queue timers.

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4 hours ago, OnboardG1 said:

Playing in tiers where the enemy aren't retarded and most of the enemy have good to excellent AA.

I will honestly let you know when I start to struggle at my goal of air supremacy.  I am not seeing it yet.

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Most of the EU streamers play carriers too (mostly Midway), I watch a lot.

They complain when they do less than 150K damage and 3 kills, but that seldom happens.

If you are good with CVs you can obv. pick a target and it is dead. If the torps do not kill it, dive bomber fires do the rest.

Looks disgusting from watching alone...

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19 minutes ago, PrivateBert said:

Most of the EU streamers play carriers too (mostly Midway), I watch a lot.

They complain when they do less than 150K damage and 3 kills, but that seldom happens.

If you are good with CVs you can obv. pick a target and it is dead. If the torps do not kill it, dive bomber fires do the rest.

Looks disgusting from watching alone...

Depending on what carrier and what target. If you run balanced loadout on US carriers until tier 8 or 9, when they get more bombers, you simply cannot kill them in 1 strike, unless you get a lucky detonation.

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Recently all ships with torpedo bulges got a buff the decreases the damage torps do on hit. To balance this BB's got a decrease in turn rate to increase the potential hits you get.

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On 1/24/2016 at 7:43 AM, leggasiini said:

- both are priority targets

To an extent they are a priority target, but more often than not people way overestimate their importance. Destroying the enemy carrier =/= auto-win, and I've seen plenty of players that threw away wins to chase down a carrier w/ no TB/DB left. 

3 hours ago, PrivateBert said:

Most of the EU streamers play carriers too (mostly Midway), I watch a lot.

They complain when they do less than 150K damage and 3 kills, but that seldom happens.

If you are good with CVs you can obv. pick a target and it is dead. If the torps do not kill it, dive bomber fires do the rest.

Looks disgusting from watching alone...

I've only seen CV play at T10, but i've played plenty up to T8 and I think T10 CV balance is just whacked as much as the rest of T10 balance, and the source of it is just the pure number of squadrons they can employ. I honestly think they should reduce the number of squadrons and increase the Torp/bomb damage. By this tier most CV targets actually have decent TDS that mitigate a lot of the up front TB damage. A little known fact: Aerial Topr/bomb damage does not increase past a certain tier (T6? at work can't check and wiki is of no help). 

Tier 6-8 CVs are much more balanced between CVs and non-CVs. Ships have pretty good AA vs your airplanes at this point and you'd actually have to work to get your damage in; no complaints here.

Tier 5 and below is horribly imbalanced again since the ships have essentially non-existent AA. Your success as a CV captain pretty much only depends on how well you can manage the air war, and most CV players at this tier are horrible at it. 

3 hours ago, FrodoTSolo said:

I will honestly let you know when I start to struggle at my goal of air supremacy.  I am not seeing it yet.

From my experiences, air supremacy builds are pretty ineffective. Sure you can gain air dominance but if you can't use it to bomb the crap out of the other team then IMO you just wasted a slot on your team. You've essentially failed at your job if you let the other CV player make even 1 good TB drop, and it's pretty rare to play against another CV captain where I can't even get that 1 good drop in. Aside from that AS build on CVs is the most boring thing to play in WoWS. 

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27 minutes ago, ncc81701 said:

To an extent they are a priority target, but more often than not people way overestimate their importance. Destroying the enemy carrier =/= auto-win, and I've seen plenty of players that threw away wins to chase down a carrier w/ no TB/DB left. 

A more subtle error is that people will shoot at a distant (and briefly visible) carrier that they have no chance of killing, rather than the much closer ships that they'll need to kill first. I suspect this behaviour could be exploited by flirting with the edge of visibility range

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Well I am playing T4 IJN carrier. It has 1 fighter squadron and 2 Torpedo Bombers squadrons. There are enough extra planes to replace each of them once. The damage each torpedo does to a Myoko is less than 6900 damage. Each squadron has 4 planes. It would 7 hits to kill 1 IJN T4 BB. So basically BBs are immune to instant death. They will shoot down 1 or 2 each pass. If there is a C hull Omaha around you will lose many more planes. T4 IJN  CVs are very weak. I have not played the US CV's. When I get my 10 wins, I will probably retire my CV for the time being.

I am not a good CV driver, but getting the manual drop timing down takes quite a few battles. There is much more skill involved then you think.

 

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13 hours ago, RichardNixon said:

A more subtle error is that people will shoot at a distant (and briefly visible) carrier that they have no chance of killing, rather than the much closer ships that they'll need to kill first. I suspect this behaviour could be exploited by flirting with the edge of visibility range

Most fail, but there are a select few who can lead CV's at max range and citadel them fairly easily.  A recent game in my Yamato resulted in me nailing the enemy Shokaku for nearly 40k HP from the maximum range I could shoot from, and the friendly CV's planes finished him off shortly afterwards.  For most players, however, going for the CV is is usually a bad idea unless you can reliably land first salvo citadels.

The problem with your idea is that at high tiers, CV rudder shift times make Yamato look maneuverable, and they bleed lots of speed when they turn too, making them fairly easy targets if you catch them mid turn.

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20 hours ago, ncc81701 said:

From my experiences, air supremacy builds are pretty ineffective. Sure you can gain air dominance but if you can't use it to bomb the crap out of the other team then IMO you just wasted a slot on your team. You've essentially failed at your job if you let the other CV player make even 1 good TB drop, and it's pretty rare to play against another CV captain where I can't even get that 1 good drop in. Aside from that AS build on CVs is the most boring thing to play in WoWS. 

Meh I find carriers as a whole, boring as hell to play.  Maintaining supremacy allows me to then use my fighters to keep enemies spotted.  Sure, I may be doing little damage, but I am still more useful than the completely neutered enemy carrier (even if he got off one strike).

Having a supremacy carrier basically means that the carriers on both teams are non existent.  Which I much prefer than having 2 strike carriers in play wrecking both teams because they can not deal with each-other.  Nothing is more annoying to play against than an unchecked strike carrier.

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3 hours ago, Jarkorsis said:

I noticed you can strafe with fighters. Does that do any damage to anything? Is there any point in strafing.

The strafe attack had a massive buff in 0.5.2. Should be highly effective in cases where your fighters are outmatched/outnumbered or you need to kill some planes very quickly, eg double torp squad making an attack run.

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21 hours ago, Jarkorsis said:

Well I am playing T4 IJN carrier. It has 1 fighter squadron and 2 Torpedo Bombers squadrons. There are enough extra planes to replace each of them once. The damage each torpedo does to a Myoko is less than 6900 damage. Each squadron has 4 planes. It would 7 hits to kill 1 IJN T4 BB. So basically BBs are immune to instant death.

Don't underestimate the amount of damage you can do by flooding. I typically attack a ship with 2 waves with the 2nd wave coming 30 sec or so after the 1st because you want them to hit the repair to stop their fire/flooding after the 1st wave and your 2nd TB drop you can relite fire or reflood them for > a minute. If your timing is right you can easily do 50% or more damage to a ship. 

21 hours ago, Jarkorsis said:

I am not a good CV driver, but getting the manual drop timing down takes quite a few battles. There is much more skill involved then you think.

Manual drops is actually pretty easy once you have some rules of thumbs to go by. I highly recommend you first practice in Co-op as the AI typically sail in fairly straight line so you can practice how to drop under ideal circumstances.

Assuming straight course & sailing at full speed (reasonable assumption for most cases), for TB drops  my rules of thumb are: 

1) For a BB/CV, time the drop so that it goes gold when the base edge of the drop pattern is ~1 ship length away from the target and have the long edge of the drop pattern near or over the bow of the ship. 

2) For a CA, same distance for base edge but ~0.5-1 ship length ahead of the bow of the ship

3) For a DD, same distance for base edge but ~1.0-1.5 ship length ahead of the bow of the ship

Remember the initial assumption for those rules are set for the assumption of straight course & full speed, now you just have to make minute adjustments based on what the target is actually doing.

3 hours ago, Jarkorsis said:

I noticed you can strafe with fighters. Does that do any damage to anything? Is there any point in strafing.

Yes, it deals globs of damage against globs of planes, or planes going in a straight line. For example if in a 2v2 fighter engagement, you can use one of your planes is engaged with 2 of your opponent's fighters to effectively pinned them down. Then you can use your 2nd fighter to barrage sweep the enemy fighters since they usually don't move, and you'll come of the engagement with ~1.5 squardron against their ~0 - 0.5 squadron. This happens because barrage does (as far as I can tell) a splash/area type of damage. If you don't have 2 fighters, use a DB as lure. 

3 hours ago, FrodoTSolo said:

Meh I find carriers as a whole, boring as hell to play.  Maintaining supremacy allows me to then use my fighters to keep enemies spotted.  Sure, I may be doing little damage, but I am still more useful than the completely neutered enemy carrier (even if he got off one strike).

Having a supremacy carrier basically means that the carriers on both teams are non existent.  Which I much prefer than having 2 strike carriers in play wrecking both teams because they can not deal with each-other.  Nothing is more annoying to play against than an unchecked strike carrier.

TL/DR: Air superiority build does not automatically means you nullify the damage potential of a balance build, and you can still curtail the majority of a Strike CV damage if you are in a balance build. .

Yes but my argument is that if you handle your balanced CV build well you can do better than just nullifying the CVs on both sides. Even if your enemy is using an air superiority build, as a balance build you can still do damage and contest scouting positions while your opponent already nullify their own damage potential by picking an air superiority build.

If you are in a balance build and you go up against a strike build then you can go to town with your 1 fighter. You can severely curtail their damage potential if you just ignore their DB and only go and hunt down their TB. You don't even have to shoot them down, typically it's enough to thumb the scale in you favor if you just attack them when they are making their run to spoil it, or you shoot down 1/2 their squadron to retard the damage potential of their drop. This is why I think balance build is often overlooked and is actually the best/most utility build of any carrier. 

CV play isn't for everyone, I think if you enjoy RTS/MOBA style of game more, you can get more enjoyment out of it. The fun comes more from out thinking your opponent than seeing ships get sunk/burned to death. 

 

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