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Folterknecht

Deliding and lapping my i5 3570K - lowering my temps

29 posts in this topic

I started with the following situation when it came to overclocking my CPU

orginal3570k76sd7.jpg

 

And that is using a 240mm AIO cooler running full tilt (with 2 fans - have to mod my case first a little, before I can mount the other 2 fans the way I want) . As you can see I m nearing the 80°C mark, making any further tinkering a wasted effort. The reason for this is Intel's infamous cost saving measure on all mainstream platforms since Z77 (Ivybridge, Haswell, Broadwell and Skylake) replacing the solder between the CPU Die and the heatspreader (IHS) with some kind of thermal paste (TIM). My personal believe is they 're using the cheapest toothpaste they can get their hands on. On the enthusiast platforms X79 and X99 CPUs are still soldered, which means the following procedure is pointless with these CPUs and will even damage it (IHS removal) in most cases.

skylake1s

 

 

The solution to this problem is removing the IHS from your CPU and replacing the original Intel gunk (it's probably brick hard by now) with Liquid Metal (LM).

There are several methods to do this including: razer, vice and the lastest and best imo a delid tool like the one below which I choose.

 

You can also 3d-print your own btw

 

After CPU and IHS are seperated they both are cleaned and the LM (Thermal Grizzly - Conductonaut in my case, any other LM will do) is applied to the CPU Die and the inside of the IHS. Afterward everything is glued back together. LM application in the video below.

 

 

In my case I also lapped the IHS of my CPU during that process resulting in a flat surface area between CPU and CPU cooler.

How to:

Spoiler

I only went for 1000 grid (which is enough) and didn't do a polish (useless in my opinion). On Intel CPUs be carefull with touching the underside of the CPU with your hands. Better grab it at the sides.

p1040080e2z89.jpg

 

After everything is put back together I now get the following results:

afterdeuy2.jpg

 

Nearly 20°C lower temperatures leave much more room for overclocking.

 

If you want to read an in depth article about this topic hardwareluxx.de recently published this one. Google translate works pretty well for german -> english.

 

Was it worth it?

 

Hell yes! Despite my CPU not being a golden OC sample judging from the voltage needed to run 4.5GHz, I now can at least find out what the limits are for my CPU and at the same time lower the rpms on my fans.

 

Beside overclocking is there an other use case for this whole operation?

 

A hot running noisy living room / media PC comes to mind, otherwise it doesn't make much sense and even there other avenues should be explored first.

 

Linustechtips also made a video on this topic, worked sloppy and choose the wrong use case. You can admire the fail here. A good example why you should consider that channel more as entertainment and less as a serious source for pc tech information.

 

The only thing left to do, is to thank "Stullen Andi" from Hardwareluxx.de for deliding my CPU as I didn't want to spend 90€ on a delite mate and don't have a 3d-printer to print one myself.

 

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Nice result, i sold mine 3770K before i even think about delid. Now with 4790K, I kinda hesitate because of warranty, but sure is hot. I'll order Predator AIO and see how much temps will drop, but with air i get ~90°C @ 4400 with high load. Also i miss my 2600K that was cold ass mf. 

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Yeah, i would do that, but im not going to because if I mess up it will be a $300 mistake. 

(and probably more because I doubt I'd be able to find another good 3570K in NZ meaning I would have to upgrade mobo as well)

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4 hours ago, BlackAdder said:

Nice result, i sold mine 3770K before i even think about delid. Now with 4790K, I kinda hesitate because of warranty, but sure is hot. I'll order Predator AIO and see how much temps will drop, but with air i get ~90°C @ 4400 with high load. Also i miss my 2600K that was cold ass mf. 

Now I don't know what air cooler and voltages you are running, but if it's a good aftermarket air cooler don't expect a huge drop in CPU temps with the Predator. The problem with these CPUs is the heat transfer (as demonstrated again here) from the DIE to the cooler and usually not the cooler. That's why cooler reviews on Z77 up to Z170 platform are pointless for higher end air, AIO and H2O coolers. The results get compressed to a degree where you can't be sure if the difference between coolers is a result of random variations or actual cooling performance.

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Nice write-up, Folterknecht.  I'm familiar with this but have never had to do it - my 4790K seems to be a fairly lucky one that doesn't have cooling problems, but my previous i5 was awful and if I hadn't replaced it i'd have tried to do this.

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9 hours ago, BlackAdder said:

Nice result, i sold mine 3770K before i even think about delid. Now with 4790K, I kinda hesitate because of warranty, but sure is hot. I'll order Predator AIO and see how much temps will drop, but with air i get ~90°C @ 4400 with high load. Also i miss my 2600K that was cold ass mf. 

 

5 hours ago, Folterknecht said:

Now I don't know what air cooler and voltages you are running, but if it's a good aftermarket air cooler don't expect a huge drop in CPU temps with the Predator. The problem with these CPUs is the heat transfer (as demonstrated again here) from the DIE to the cooler and usually not the cooler. That's why cooler reviews on Z77 up to Z170 platform are pointless for higher end air, AIO and H2O coolers. The results get compressed to a degree where you can't be sure if the difference between coolers is a result of random variations or actual cooling performance.

^All of that. I'm using the same chip, 4790K at 4.8GHz and I still hit a max(not average, but max) of 82C.....with a custom water cooling loop. My average after an hour of AIDA64 was 78C, and that's without either of the GPU's under load (same loop). Don't expect a significant temp decrease, and just kinda trust that Intel knew what they were doing when they set the thermal throttle threshold.

Just for reference, ran it for a few mins to demonstrate. Look at the maximums.

aFqSlSU.png

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3 hours ago, Shade421 said:

 

^All of that. I'm using the same chip, 4790K at 4.8GHz and I still hit a max(not average, but max) of 82C.....with a custom water cooling loop.

75-80°C is the magical barrier - after that OC headroom decreases

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I run a 6700K at 4.6 GHz, and AIDA64 brings the CPU to 50 C max. I'm using an NZXT Kraken X61. (280mm)

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18 minutes ago, Wewum said:

I run a 6700K at 4.6 GHz, and AIDA64 brings the CPU to 50 C max. I'm using an NZXT Kraken X61. (280mm)

 

Aida ... not really usefull for stress/stability testing.

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55 minutes ago, Folterknecht said:

 

Aida ... not really usefull for stress/stability testing.

Why not and what is?

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21 minutes ago, Shade421 said:

Why not and what is?

It doesnt put that high of a load on the system as Prime for example. Where Aida often runs fine, other programms still manage to bring your system to its knees. It's ok for a quick glance to get an idea if your system is somewhat stable.

 

Prime also has the advantage to indicate which voltage needs further tweaking, which no other programm is able to do afaik

 

Sandy-Ivy

Haswell

 

Use google translate - works ok with german -> english

 

 

 

 

EDIT

Also check your windows event loggers guys!

if you find " WHEA Loggers, especially Error Type: „Internal parity error" your OC isnt fully stable regardless of what Prime or other stress testers might indicate.

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11 hours ago, Folterknecht said:

It doesnt put that high of a load on the system as Prime for example. Where Aida often runs fine, other programms still manage to bring your system to its knees. It's ok for a quick glance to get an idea if your system is somewhat stable.

 

Prime also has the advantage to indicate which voltage needs further tweaking, which no other programm is able to do afaik

 

Sandy-Ivy

Haswell

 

Use google translate - works ok with german -> english

 

 

 

 

EDIT

Also check your windows event loggers guys!

if you find " WHEA Loggers, especially Error Type: „Internal parity error" your OC isnt fully stable regardless of what Prime or other stress testers might indicate.

Prime is known to sometimes put too much stress on your components. Jay uses AIDA64, and I'm pretty sure he knows more than you :P

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Jay certainly knows more than me in all kinds of areas including watercooling.

 

What Jay didn't tell you in his vid is what really makes Prime95 "dangerous" - uninformed PC noobs "OCing" with "Auto" voltages, thinking that changing the multi and pressing F10 makes them overclockers. I tell you what that makes them - morons.

 

I ve overclocked my PCs more than 15 years and never managed to destroy my CPUs with OC despite using Prime95 or running Furmark/voltage tweaks on GPUs before NV and ATI introduced all kinds of safty measures for the unwashed masses.

780974.png

^^ And that was Prime stable for an hour with air.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Folterknecht said:

780974.png

^^ And that was Prime stable for an hour with air.

Daaamn.

I had a Xeon 3040 that I ran for a couple of years at 450*7 on air. That's still alive and enjoying a peaceful retirement running my mum's email/Ebay machine.

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Thought about delidding my 4790k which runs 4,8Ghz @1,25V, but as my 280mm AiO keeps the temps fairly low (~60°C with fans at 30-40% Speed) while gaming and below 80°C while stresstesting to the max i've seen no reason to eventually destroy it by delidding it.

Don't have the money to buy a new one. :cri:

 

But it certainly helps alot for some chips.

Got an old i5-2500k in my second rig which runs at 4,4Ghz @1,3V cooled by a 240mm AiO with really low fan speeds. That thing barely reaches the 50°C mark under load, it's ridicoulus :awyeah:

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If you re happy with 4.8GHz - (very good at 1.25V) - than there is no reason to do it. In my case the temps prevented any further voltage increase, because from 80°C onwards temps are starting to decrease OC potential.

Though with 4.8 GHz at only 1.25V I can see the magical 5GHz appear on the horizon with less than 1.4V.

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Would be really nice to see the magical 5Ghz appear. Never fiddled around much with my CPU. I just set the vcore manually to 1,25v and tried out some multis.

x44 worked, x46 worked, for the lolz i went for x48 and even that worked at 1,25v. Been like that for over a year without any instabilities whatsoever. Never tried to achieve any higher numbers. Might try to hit the 5Ghz sometime, for science of course! Not that i really need it.

Even if i achieved 5Ghz i would probably go back to 4,8Ghz just for the more stable temps. The NZXT Kraken X61 is an amazing AiO, but i have my doubts it can handle a non delidded 4790k at 5Ghz.

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If you decide to go for 5 GHz and need some help:

http://www.hardwareluxx.de/community/f139/howto-get-my-haswell-devils-canyon-stable-guide-und-full-custom-liste-989828.html

and here you can find information on deliding and reliable people who would do that for you for a small fee, if you re scared to do it yourself:

http://www.hardwareluxx.de/community/f139/intel-ivy-bridge-haswell-skylake-gekoepft-erfahrungen-ohne-hs-mit-gewechseltem-tim-891243.html

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Well, guess i could go for it at some point myself. Not really a fan of shipping 300€+ CPUs cross country to someone i don't know personally.

 

If it breaks, i still have my itx-rig to game on and a reason to use the Gigabyte Black Edition Mabo switch thingy to switch to z170 with a new cpu :disco:

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@Folterknecht I'm 99% in deliding, but I need the first-hand experience. 

  1. can i use any thermal paste? I have MX4
  2. what to do with adhesive on the side (is that buffer between IHS and DIE)
  3. did you fix IHS or just leave it "floating" on CPU

Thanks, temps are near 90° for one core, I try to reposition cooler, but even with 4GHz @ 1.15V still hits 90s. Until Predator (240)360, I'm thinking about delid. 

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19 minutes ago, BlackAdder said:

 

  1. can i use any thermal paste? I have MX4

Between IHS and DIE?? Nope

1) Thermal paste produces worse results than liquid metal to start with.

2) Some (not all) thermal pastes seem to break down in this scenario, meaning within 6-12 months your temps will rise again. They are usually not designed for that.

Quote
  1. what to do with adhesive on the side (is that buffer between IHS and DIE)

Carefully remove the old one with something like a credit card or you finger nail.

Quote
  1. did you fix IHS or just leave it "floating" on CPU

I would fix the IHS makes handling the hole thing easier. Just put a little "glue" on the corners of the IHS, thats good enough and makes removal easier if you screw something up and have to redo something. See the video from 7:12 onward

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"I" didnt use the vice or a razor but a dedicated delid tool, which greatly reduces any risk destroying the CPU. When you have removed the IHS I would take the opportunity and lap it.

 

Also with your temps it might be the case, that your cooler is faulty somehow.

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New 4790K, not delided i don't think that needs it (for now). 5min full load, same conditions as before (only clocked to 4.4). 

 

EjXinaj.jpg

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I had a 24/7 overclock of 4.7 Ghz with my 4770k before my Swiftech H220 crapped out. Twice.

These were the original design with the pump on the cpu. Now I'm just running the stock heat sink.

I should delid it. 

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7 hours ago, crapcannon said:

I had a 24/7 overclock of 4.7 Ghz with my 4770k before my Swiftech H220 crapped out. Twice.

These were the original design with the pump on the cpu. Now I'm just running the stock heat sink.

I should delid it. 

 

Don't fuck it like I did :D

Vice method is easy, and I forget about my equipment. Planning to buy predator for quite some time, and when this happens, delid is a go. 

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