kunjuro

Tier X Light tanks

369 posts in this topic

So now we have high tier lights with lower VR than same-tier mediums in some cases. Seems that WG places a very high premium on speed. The problem they have with that concept is tanks like the Leo PTA that have high VR and high speed. Oh, and amazing gun stats. And camo. Best we not tell anyone lest they nerf it....

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1 minute ago, Gryphon_ said:

So now we have high tier lights with lower VR than same-tier mediums in some cases. Seems that WG places a very high premium on speed. The problem they have with that concept is tanks like the Leo PTA that have high VR and high speed. Oh, and amazing gun stats. And camo. Best we not tell anyone lest they nerf it....

Don't you worry, the mediums will get hit with the nerf-bat sooner or later. They are hell-bent on bringing the original sandbox into the game.

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M5 stuart is the epitome of Light tanks, perfectly encapsulating their intended playstyle. It is our goal as the WG Balance department to make all light tanks as similar to the one true light tank, the M5 Stuart. 

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WG was building some good momentum:

  • Introduced a fun non-op tier 8 premium (T25P)
  • Improved matchmaking
  • Made arty much less one shot (outside of paper lights / TD / CDC)
  • Revised lights that were generally positive that I had minor quibbles with.

I swear THIS is the April Fools that WG was planning and not the mutant. i think this example explains all our issues and shows the messed up thinkin of WG. : 

Quote

 Т-100 LT

  •  Changed dispersion of the 100 mm Т-100 gun for the Т-100 LT (Article 64992) turret from 0.44 m to 0.46 m
  •  Changed the view range of the Т-100 LT (Article 64992) turret from 410 m to 390 m
  •  Changed thickness of the upper glacis plate from 100 mm to 90 mm
  •  Changed the damage of the 3VBB shell for the 100 mm Т-100 gun from 320 to 300
  •  Changed the damage of the 3VBM shell for the 100 mm Т-100 gun from 320 to 300
  •  Changed the damage of the 3VOF shell for the 100 mm Т-100 gun from 420 to 360
  •  Changed the ammo rack capacity for the 100 mm Т-100 gun from 42 to 33

 

So let's compare to equivalent T100 to Obj 140 from ingame CT data:

WG "Firepower rating" whatever that is  316 to 642..basically "half" as effective according to WG.

Accuracy .44 vs .34

Pen 230 vs 264

DPM 2189 vs 3034

View Range 390m vs 400m

Camo Factor Stationary: 19.84 vs 16.15

HP 1500 vs 1900

Speed 72 vs 55

Traverse 58 vs 56

Ammo capacity: 50 vs 33 ( the last patch took potential damage for the T100 from 13440 HP to 9,900 HP

So why would you ever take a T100 over an Obj 140. Unless there is a dirt track mission ... never.

This is not a tweek...this is a lobotomy.

WG should take the LT high view ranges down by 10M from before (so +10 on average medium at tier), keep gold pen down, and balance DPM to 10%-15% less than comparable mediums, and then call it a day. Changes like this at last minute (for instance Swedish Leo losing 650 HP engine) are typical overreactions and not necessary. FWIW Object 252 got a rate of fire BUFF last minute, which still drives me nuts. 

PS The Bulldog was too OP for it's tier with the 10 shot autoloader. 6-8 in the clip is more reasonable, but have to lower the reload significantly (same goes for Batchat 12t). The  M41top gun is still 2100 DPM, which is very respectable for that tier.

PPS The WZ-131 really got boned in 9.18. Went from 2200 dpm (with the 85mm) down to 1600 dpm and view range from .390 to 370 and aim time up to 2.4. This WAS one of my favorite tanks. I know it effectively dropped a tier but cumon WG. I think they used the base stats of the 100mm as a basis for aim time / DPM adjustments balancing, problem was that was not the best gun for this tank and they removed it anyway. The Type 62 is much better now...so we will probably see a sale on it in May. I need to grind of this tank out..

PPPS. The type 64 rocks even more with Vert Stabs available now and no view range nerf. t's on sale for the next week at 30% off. Get it!!

 

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12 minutes ago, MagicalFlyingFox said:

M5 stuart is the epitome of Light tanks, perfectly encapsulating their intended playstyle. It is our goal as the WG Balance department to make all light tanks as similar to the one true light tank, the M5 Stuart. 

Right down to taking the good gun off it!

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13 minutes ago, CraBeatOff said:

Right down to taking the good gun off it!

Gun? What gun? You run with no ammo of course. Don't want to get distracted shooting things when you're jerking off in your bush getting 0 spotting because the meds steal it all. 

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This is the dumbest change I have ever seen WG do. Now there's nothing going for light tanks AT ALL. Why nerf something that was already somewhat reasonable? It's not like lights can steal a meds job at damage dealing because they have overall shit survivability.

I'll have to pick between lights or arty for personal missions, and I can't believe I'm leaning towards arty :notlikethis:

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I can stand the alpha reduction (which already leads to dpm nerf even when keeping the same RoF)..

But why the vr, ammo capacity and RoF nerf?

I really hope it's a late April fool's joke.

A tier 10 tank having the same vr as a t6 one is plain stupid.

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  • XM551 Sheridan
  •  Changed the view range of the AR/AAV XM551 Sheridan turret from 430 m to 420 m
  •  Changed damage of the Exp. APDS shell for 105 mm Lightweight Gun from 390 to 360
  •  Changed damage of the Exp. HE shell for 105 mm Lightweight Gun from 480 to 440
  •  Changed damage of the Exp. HEAT shell for 105 mm Lightweight Gun from 390 to 360
  •  Changed the ammo rack capacity for 105 mm Lightweight Gun from 40 to 32

WHAT THE FUCK

thanks for the good opportunity to play a normal tank on the test server

idk who will play these shit nerfed lights after the abysmal nerfs, especially on the russian one...

wg why do you have to fuck up every time 1-2 weeks before the patch ffs

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The dumbest part is that it makes no business sense either. Missions aren't attractive enough to force people to play a given class. Nerfing a tier but leaving higher tiers desirable is their classic strategy to entice people to grind lines and spend free XP. Nerfing an entire class, including brand new end tanks, is patently counterproductive. Somebody needs to police the compound. The team is clearly drunk or stoned out of their minds. 

Sadly, good lights, with speed and damage ability, are indeed the solution to the super-heavy corridor meta. A class that can flank or disrupt, if played intelligently, can break the battle out of deadlock.  Good lights are the paper (literally) to the heavy/medium/TD rock and scissors. 

WG's idea of a scout absolutely requires something the game simply can't produce: intelligent team play.  The nerfs condemn the class to the useless and pointless task of spotting what your team won't shoot anyway and that they can now largely spot for themselves  

Oh well.  I guess we're stuck with games decided by which team's heavies are least brain dead. 

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The RHM PZwgn is a very nice, comfortable tank. It is pretty easy to do 4k dmg + 4k spotting (if all the other lights aren't yoloing like idiots anyway). That said, in those games, I probably would have done 5-6k in a Leo doing pretty much the same thing.

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19 hours ago, MagicalFlyingFox said:

M5 stuart is the epitome of Light tanks, perfectly encapsulating their intended playstyle. It is our goal as the WG Balance department to make all light tanks as similar to the one true light tank, the M5 Stuart. 

True in more ways than one, M5 was fun with the old Scott turret and 75mm, then was nerfed into the ground. Nice to see all the other lights catching up. 

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Do they change dev teams during test server iterations? Like when they buffed the Maus again? I dont understand what the fuck they are doing but i am starting to believe that there are at least 2 dev teams, one on sandbox which have some brain and the other one who is brain dead. 

I also smell something fishy like there is something going on inside this company  where some want to bring changes and some others that dont because they know they should be fired, but they arent for some reason. I dont know i might be wrong but it is not the first time that i witness 2 completely different approches from the same company on this game. They sound very schizophrenic

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On the other hand, I was playing the T9 lights that moved up, like the RU.  These got nice buffs to pen, kept damage, but lost some VR for the most part.  In some ways, this is a buff, since they see the same tiers they saw before.  The VR nerf hurts, but the RU actually got a VR buff.  

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Instead you now get frustrated when fully aimed shots miss because they nerfed all the accuracy. 

 

They made light tanks less fun because they "don't want them to be too much like Medium Tanks" and are absolutely insistent on light tanks only being able to circlejerk heavy tanks instead of being able to kite with their superior view range, which is only really a problem in lower tiers due to the high tier view range saturation making shooting and staying unlit a very rare occurrence, only happening when you double bush... which meds can do.... much much better. Even if they made the high tier lights more accurate, meds will still do it better. 

Light tanks will never ever replace medium tanks, it may take its role at times but it will never be as good as a medium tank. WG balance department do not play this game, so do not even know what makes playing light tanks fun. What they see is that people play lights, and they aren't in tier 10 yet so they are planning on moving light tanks up a tier and introduce tier 10s so they become credit sinks with their repair costs instead of easily being able to break even for a common pubbie since they don't really spam the 2 key.

Judging by patch history, it is extremely obvious that a lot of WG balance dept do not play this game. The other thing is that NONE of the balance dept speak to each other, hence why we see MAKE ARMOUR GREAT AGAIN and Type 4/5 HE DURP, M41 Bulldog 6 shot clip with 40s reload (because they needed to nerf one of them buut lets not talk to each other and implement both) and Light tank 0.46 accuracy is good! DA! Derp Sheridan just became more viable by virtue of retarded balance.

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21 hours ago, Vindi said:
  • XM551 Sheridan
  •  Changed the view range of the AR/AAV XM551 Sheridan turret from 430 m to 420 m
  •  Changed damage of the Exp. APDS shell for 105 mm Lightweight Gun from 390 to 360
  •  Changed damage of the Exp. HE shell for 105 mm Lightweight Gun from 480 to 440
  •  Changed damage of the Exp. HEAT shell for 105 mm Lightweight Gun from 390 to 360
  •  Changed the ammo rack capacity for 105 mm Lightweight Gun from 40 to 32

WHAT THE FUCK

thanks for the good opportunity to play a normal tank on the test server

idk who will play these shit nerfed lights after the abysmal nerfs, especially on the russian one...

wg why do you have to fuck up every time 1-2 weeks before the patch ffs

What is the saddest part is that Sheridan got arguably the most mild nerfs out of bunch. AMX 13 105 and T-100 are crappy tier 9s at tier 10.

Derp Sheridan is pmuch same as before though apart from VR and slight ammo nerf. Lucky me, that is what i was planning to get.

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On 4/8/2017 at 4:56 AM, General_6 said:

WG should take the LT high view ranges down by 10M from before (so +10 on average medium at tier), keep gold pen down, and balance DPM to 10%-15% less than comparable mediums, and then call it a day. Changes like this at last minute (for instance Swedish Leo losing 650 HP engine) are typical overreactions and not necessary. FWIW Object 252 got a rate of fire BUFF last minute, which still drives me nuts. 

 

They are stupid? LTs should have maxed out VR and possibly render range +10m, to give them true support scouting role. Instead, you can use BAT or RU hoovermed to scout. 

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Just wondering if this Scouts will find a place in Clanwars. Cause I don't see they will. 

They just don't offer enough. Everything they can do, mediums can do as well and they have better guns. Good old T-50-2 is still going to be last light which had a place in CW. 

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3 hours ago, hall0 said:

Just wondering if this Scouts will find a place in Clanwars. Cause I don't see they will. 

They just don't offer enough. Everything they can do, mediums can do as well and they have better guns. Good old T-50-2 is still going to be last light which had a place in CW. 

Well, now we need to find replacements for t8 scouts..

At t10 we may see some on prok/Mali, other than that they're just a liability instead of adding strength to the compo.

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The only thing they could add to maps like mali/prok in their current state are getting to the typical light tank camping bushes....which everyone blind shoots currently anyway just to make sure a batchat didn't get there.. and since they don't have the health pool the take multiple hits hardly a well timed team blind shot would delete it instantly.

 

They pretty much have ONLY their speed and mobility now. May as well be driving around MT-25's in T10 matches now. You can zip around but that's about the only use you'll be.

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We will never see a tier 10 LT in WGL, but what is going to replace the tier 8 scouts? Arty changes means M40/43 probably won't be used, UDES maybe at times i guess...

I don't Tier 10 LTs in CW besides in really really open maps since a bat is just 10000% better. You spot in the LT and then you are completely useless. Hell, if you don't have to move far, an S Tank makes a super super good passive scout and afterwards you have an S tank (tested in cw, wasn't lit until firing at a med less than 100m away.)

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It's not just that mediums have better viewrange than lights. Every single tier 10 heavy has got 400m except for FV215B which has 410 and Kranvagn which has 390. So OP viewrange on tier 10 lights.

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All that means to lights is that if they fire they get lit. I usually use vents on my heavies though so if they are right on the edge i won't spot. 

The issue is that you sacrifice far far too much to be able to scout slightly better than a medium. 

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On 4/7/2017 at 10:56 PM, General_6 said:

WG should take the LT high view ranges down by 10M from before (so +10 on average medium at tier), keep gold pen down, and balance DPM to 10%-15% less than comparable mediums, and then call it a day. Changes like this at last minute (for instance Swedish Leo losing 650 HP engine) are typical overreactions and not necessary. FWIW Object 252 got a rate of fire BUFF last minute, which still drives me nuts. 

 

They are stupid? LTs should have maxed out VR and possibly render range +10m, to give them true support scouting role. Instead, you can use BAT or RU hoovermed to scout. 

Sorry I wasn't clear. Scouts should have max viewrange but possibly 440m base is too much. What I meant to say is those LT tanks before micropatch with 430m-420m viewrange (Sheridian, T49, PZW, Ru251,  WZ-132-1, WZ-132A) nock that down by 10M but leave everything else alone. The rule of thumb that LT's should have approx 10m better view range than mediums apply, however.

I wonder a LT loaded up beyond if max view (Pre nerf Rhm-PZW with Food/Optics/Vents/ Brother Arms / Recon/ Sit Aware) of 540 meters would help or hurt the game...either it could encourage less camping TD's (good thing) or force those players to be full red line campers (bad thing).

Looking at tanks.gg right now for relative tank ranking per tier in view-range (note that this is alphabetical with same view range). Everything in bold is way out of whack.I have ignored premiums lights which are not effected.

  • In tier 10:  PZW #3 Sheridian #4,  WZ 132-1 #40, AMX 13-10 #41 and T-100 #51. While the PZW and Sheridian are ok, the WZ,AMX and T-100 are pure BS. There are 50 tanks better or equal to T100 in view range.
  • In tier 9: RU251 #2 T49 #3 T54L #24, WZ-132A #28, AMX 13/90 #29
  • In tier 8 HWK12 #1, M41 #9, B-C 12t #34, LTTB #40, WZ-132 #64. Just to show how ludicrous this is the VK100P with VR of 400m is 48 tanks ahead of the WZ-132.
  • In tier 7 SPC#2, T71 #4, AMX 13-75 #24, WZ-131 #37. There are 3 non-available premium lights in Tier 7 that haven't been included in ranking.
  • In tier 6 T21 #3. VK 28.01 #4, T37 #13, 59-16 #26, AMX 12t #29, MT-25 #33
  • in tier 5 ELC #9, Chafee #12, M7 #13, Leopard #15, T-50 #30. BTW the LEFH18B2 is #1 with a 390M view range at tier 5, another reason to hate this premium arty.

So my suggestion at a bare minimum is that every scout in bold does NOT have it's view range nerfed compared to before the micropatch and honestly don't think the view ranges before last micropatch were game breaking. 

Also a nerf of this magnitude should have been part of a sandbox test, not a near final micropatch right before going live. No way to have data to adequately test bullcrap like this. If there are individual tank problems don't wholesale nerf but selectively buff / nerf a few tanks after having more data.

 

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