Steel_Six

Improved WN8, No Improvement in Win Rate

37 posts in this topic

I've raised my WN8 to about 1800 over the course of the last 30 days. My K/D R is 44% higher, my DR is 30% higher, I'm surviving about 10% more battles, I am at about 46% for fire for effect (vs ~30% previously) but my win rate is worse now than when I started. I play mostly mediums (with a healthy dose of the T32 thrown in) and do reasonably well in most, though I would never be accused at being able to 'carry' a battle (once in a very great while).

Where I really seem to get smoked is when I'm in Tier 10 matches. I seem to play ok, but quite a few of those games end up being 15-3 wipeouts.

I tend to be aggressive when I'm top tier, play support when I'm mid tier, and be a sneaky bastard when I'm bottom tier.

I'm at a loss to figure why this is happening. I don't rage as much, since I'm personally doing better in a lot of metrics, but it does get frustrating to continually lose these matches.

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First of all winrate is not a terribly accurate rating over only a small amount of games. So unless you did like 200+ games in your last 30 days, you should not read too much into it.

But, if you raise your WN8 by sniping late game damage, and even do most damage later in the game (for fear of diing too early and thus loosing WN8) then you are plainly stat padding - you deal more damage ot get higher WN8 and not to win the game.

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7 minutes ago, Jaegaer said:

First of all winrate is not a terribly accurate rating over only a small amount of games. So unless you did like 200+ games in your last 30 days, you should not read too much into it.

But, if you raise your WN8 by sniping late game damage, and even do most damage later in the game (for fear of diing too early and thus loosing WN8) then you are plainly stat padding - you deal more damage ot get higher WN8 and not to win the game.

Since I've observed how some of you guys play *ahem* there are definitely times when I'll displace from a losing side in order to survive a bit longer and do some more damage, however that's not my normal game play style.

What seems at odds with a claim of stat padding is the increase in survivability, I would expect a losing stat padder to die just as often as before, while my survivability is going up. There aren't many games that I survive on a losing team, especially at the higher tiers, because most folks want to get kills/damage more than cap points.

BTW, it's only 14 days ( I use Age of Strife stats page) and it's been 318 battles. 49% WR vs 51% nominal

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Its a common problem, I've seen countless players with WN8 scores in the 3000's but sub 60% WR's.

Its a difficult topic to explain, I'm a little smashed but I'll give it a go. Basically what it comes down to is that you haven't learnt how to win, you're just dealing empty damage. When I say "empty" damage, I mean damage that isn't affecting the outcome of the game, usually in the form of clean-up damage. When a flank is looking a little weak, the 55% 3500 WN8 player turns and runs back to his trusted bush where he can farm some damage after the flank has crumbled, empty damage. The 65% 2800 WN8 player digs in to hold, knowing that if he can hold out for long enough, the other flank might eventually win and come to support, or he will weaken the enemies enough to make for an easy defense. The damage he's doing and absorbing is actively contributing towards the possible victory.

Another scenario, your team has lemming train'd to one flank but they aren't actively pushing it. The 65% winner realises that he needs to conduct the lemming train, otherwise they're just going to get flanked and crushed, so he pushes forward into the enemy guns. This move obviously puts his own damage numbers at risk since he's likely going to get the brunt of the attack being the first tank to make a move, but he hopes it will set the rest of the team in motion and they'll likely crush that flank by sheer numbers advantage. What does the WN8 padder do? "Somebody scout them pls".

Then there's the game sense that game winners have, for example noticing a distinct weakness in the enemy team's lineup or deployment. If you see their 3 top tier brutes are on the other flank, you obviously know your flank won't be facing them so play accordingly. Obviously there's times when you should run from a flank, or camp bushes, etc. Knowing when and where is what makes good players good, its not something that they just read from a book, its thousands of battles of practice and knowledge.

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16 minutes ago, PityFool said:

Its a common problem, I've seen countless players with WN8 scores in the 3000's but sub 60% WR's.

Its a difficult topic to explain, I'm a little smashed but I'll give it a go. Basically what it comes down to is that you haven't learnt how to win, you're just dealing empty damage. When I say "empty" damage, I mean damage that isn't affecting the outcome of the game, usually in the form of clean-up damage. When a flank is looking a little weak, the 55% 3500 WN8 player turns and runs back to his trusted bush where he can farm some damage after the flank has crumbled, empty damage. The 65% 2800 WN8 player digs in to hold, knowing that if he can hold out for long enough, the other flank might eventually win and come to support, or he will weaken the enemies enough to make for an easy defense. The damage he's doing and absorbing is actively contributing towards the possible victory.[/quote]

There is some truth in this, I do use XVM and will allow that to dictate how I believe my team will respond to various scenarios. I can't tell you how many times I've tried to exploit a flank's weakness only to be left hung out to dry by folks who only want to play tank sniper. I'm less aggressive because most of the vehicles I play don't carry well (at least in my hands) and are better in a support role. So unless I see another player ready to try to push a flank, I'm content to wait for targets to show up myself.

 

That's only true in mediums, btw.

16 minutes ago, PityFool said:

Another scenario, your team has lemming train'd to one flank but they aren't actively pushing it. The 65% winner realises that he needs to conduct the lemming train, otherwise they're just going to get flanked and crushed, so he pushes forward into the enemy guns. This move obviously puts his own damage numbers at risk since he's likely going to get the brunt of the attack being the first tank to make a move, but he hopes it will set the rest of the team in motion and they'll likely crush that flank by sheer numbers advantage. What does the WN8 padder do? "Somebody scout them pls".

Looking at my stats again, I'm seeing a 14% reduction in spotting, a 12% reduction in experience but an increase in the average tier being played of 9%.

That's probably a recognition that I'm not playing as aggressively as I used to, which kind of sucks because the inference is that if I allow myself to get my ass shot off, my team can clean up the other side better than if I play like most of them.

16 minutes ago, PityFool said:

Then there's the game sense that game winners have, for example noticing a distinct weakness in the enemy team's lineup or deployment. If you see their 3 top tier brutes are on the other flank, you obviously know your flank won't be facing them so play accordingly. Obviously there's times when you should run from a flank, or camp bushes, etc. Knowing when and where is what makes good players good, its not something that they just read from a book, its thousands of battles of practice and knowledge.

What are the realistic chances that I have of carrying games playing mostly US mediums?

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I often find that my higher Wn8 sessions are lower WR sessions and vice versa.  I'm not sure I can explain why, except to echo Pity, that there's a way of thinking about this game while playing that focuses on winning, and that sometimes means a lot of damage, and it sometimes doesn't, so your Wn8 will vary.  Part of what it takes to win, I think, includes much of the stuff you've been improving on, such as surviving and getting enemy guns out of the game (so K/D ratio).  But I've never been sure that damage has a very direct correlation to winning, at least for me.  But then I don't do all that much damage in games.   

I was basically at my current WR about 2000 battles in to this game, way before I'd ever heard of XVM or Wn?.  I played to win, and kept focused on learning how to do that as I climbed the tiers, because how to do that changed as I did (and I haven't really figured it out for T9-10 yet).  I played mostly solo (and my solo WR is higher than my platooned WR).  Again, as others have said, WR is indicative over very large numbers of games.  Even several hundred games is a poor metric because so few battles make a pretty big difference still.  Notice my recent WR is under 54%.  But the most recent half of those 1000 battles (after returning to the game) were above my overall until my most recent 15 game session at 43%, and at 15 games, the difference between 43% and 55% was just a couple of losses.  

You decide what matters to you, and perhaps for the very skilled players, both damage (and thus Wn8) and WR go hand in hand better.  For me, I focus on winning, and let the rest of it fall where it does.  I don't find losing at all fun, no matter whether I do the kinds of things that makes some external metric improve. 

None of this is to say that the two are necessarily in tension.  Just that they can be, and perhaps more so for people playing at more normal levels of skill.  

And one of the best things I did for my game performance and enjoyment was get rid of XVM.

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I'm having the same problem. Difference is, I'm not trying to stat pad with empty damage and I try to flex and do the things to win the game but sometimes no matter what I do, it just doesn't work. Even in 3 man platoons it feels like its 27 VS 3.

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7 minutes ago, Steel_Six said:

 I do use XVM and will allow that to dictate how I believe my team will respond to various scenarios.

 

What are the realistic chances that I have of carrying games playing mostly US mediums?

My honest advice is to disable XVM stats, you're only fucking yourself by trying to make plays based on people's numbers. I've seen people with 200 WN8 make incredible plays and people with 3k make retarded ones. I only ever made plays based on people I knew.

I haven't played this game since March 2015, so I really don't know the current meta and map layouts. From my most recent knowledge, the M46 and M48 were some of the best in tier mediums but I never played US mediums much at all so I'm not really able to give you a definitive answer. 

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I agree with @PityFool with what he said.

i would like to add one thing tho. You can also win games by dealing enough dmg at strategicaly important locations or tanks at the right time. Right time being as early as possible. If enemy has huge avdvantage on one flank im the first guy that wont go there. However theres always a few guys on your team that will and they will die uselesly and quickly. 

If you manage to get some good early position to spot and do dmg to enemies going there you will give your team alot of advantage. 

1. After initial "farm" you can push the other flank.

2. Since enemy is not full hp anymore it will take them i bit longer to win and after you won your flank you will have to deal with alot weaker oponents.

So dmg whoring isnt bad, what makes it bad is farming dmg that doesnt give you strategical advantage.

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51 minutes ago, PityFool said:

My honest advice is to disable XVM stats, you're only fucking yourself by trying to make plays based on people's numbers. I've seen people with 200 WN8 make incredible plays and people with 3k make retarded ones. I only ever made plays based on people I knew.[/quote]

I'm torn with this.

One, I've disabled in game chat, because that's a distraction I don't need (and because it was way to easy to express frustration in game with it enabled).

Two, I don't have the stats up, just the color code of the players overall and their WR in the current tank. In some cases, it's a psychological barrier to overcome (like, logging into your third match in a row with all  tomatoes on your side and all kiwis on the other). On the other hand, knowing who I'm up against makes me play a more tactical game in a lot of situations. Not necessarily cautious, but I certainly don't yolo against the better players.

Currently, I haven't updated the service, so I'll play a few days without it being on and see if it makes a difference.

 

I'm thinking it goes beyond that, however.

Quote
Quote

I haven't played this game since March 2015, so I really don't know the current meta and map layouts. From my most recent knowledge, the M46 and M48 were some of the best in tier mediums but I never played US mediums much at all so I'm not really able to give you a definitive answer. 

I love the M46, best fit for me as a player in the game. Not that I excel with it, but it defines 'comfortable'.

I have a love/hate relationship with the M48. It's a deadly tank when in support, but I have a lot of trouble trying to push with it.

26 minutes ago, Gr1nch_1 said:

I agree with @PityFool with what he said.

i would like to add one thing tho. You can also win games by dealing enough dmg at strategicaly important locations or tanks at the right time. Right time being as early as possible. If enemy has huge avdvantage on one flank im the first guy that wont go there. However theres always a few guys on your team that will and they will die uselesly and quickly. 

If you manage to get some good early position to spot and do dmg to enemies going there you will give your team alot of advantage. 

1. After initial "farm" you can push the other flank.

2. Since enemy is not full hp anymore it will take them i bit longer to win and after you won your flank you will have to deal with alot weaker oponents.

So dmg whoring isnt bad, what makes it bad is farming dmg that doesnt give you strategical advantage.

Here's my problem in one tanks stats.

I love the T54E1. Love it. I do 110% expected damage over 78 games. I do 103% frags. 128% dropped capture points.

 

69.6% spotted (though how the hell this tank can 'spot' is beyond me)

42% WR.

I always, always play this up front. I stay just behind the heavies/meds, then jump out and dump a clip into the bad guys. I'll take two hits to give four, then do it again. Point being, I'm never playing passive, I'm dealing a lot of damage, killing a fair amount of bad guys and getting smoked in wins.

 

Not sure what else this thing is capable of.

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Not sure what expected values for each tank are and what 110% of those are in hp of dmg.

However i can give you a rough estimate. If you can do 3-3.5k dpg in tier 9 you should win 55-58% of your games. If you want to win more you cant do it by just pure dmg output. If you want to win more you have to realize that positioning is king in this game. When you get the grasp of that dmg and win will come hand in hand.

Side question. What tank have you played the most recently and whats our recent dpg and wr in that tank? Im on the phone so cant check it myself :drunk:

 

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8 minutes ago, Gr1nch_1 said:

Not sure what expected values for each tank are and what 110% of those are in hp of dmg.

However i can give you a rough estimate. If you can do 3-3.5k dpg in tier 9 you should win 55-58% of your games. If you want to win more you cant do it by just pure dmg output. If you want to win more you have to realize that positioning is king in this game. When you get the grasp of that dmg and win will come hand in hand.

Side question. What tank have you played the most recently and whats our recent dpg and wr in that tank? Im on the phone so cant check it myself :drunk:

 

T32: 1547 dpg, 56% WR

T54E1: 1836 dpg, 42% WR

Ripper: 1353dpg, 50% WR

M48: 2300dpg, 51% wr

12 minutes ago, Gr1nch_1 said:

Not sure what expected values for each tank are and what 110% of those are in hp of dmg.

However i can give you a rough estimate. If you can do 3-3.5k dpg in tier 9 you should win 55-58% of your games. If you want to win more you cant do it by just pure dmg output. If you want to win more you have to realize that positioning is king in this game. When you get the grasp of that dmg and win will come hand in hand.

Side question. What tank have you played the most recently and whats our recent dpg and wr in that tank? Im on the phone so cant check it myself :drunk:

 

I can do 3k damage once every 5 games or so, at a guess.

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E1 could be an unlucky streak but the rest looks as i would expect with that dpg.

Also quick tip, wn8 is tank based metric so higher wn8 could just mean that you are playing tanks with lower expected dmg. Dpg is a bit more telling imo.

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2 minutes ago, Gr1nch_1 said:

E1 could be an unlucky streak but the rest looks as i would expect with that dpg.

Also quick tip, wn8 is tank based metric so higher wn8 could just mean that you are playing tanks with lower expected dmg. Dpg is a bit more telling imo.

To be fair, these are the only tanks I usually play.

 

I can jump out of my M103 and into my T10 and waffle stomp my way to one win after another. But it doesn't give me the same amount of satisfaction as winning in the 103.

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2 hours ago, Gr1nch_1 said:

However i can give you a rough estimate. If you can do 3-3.5k dpg in tier 9 you should win 55-58% of your games.

 

I think you might be off by like a thousand damage per game. 3.5k is near or past a lot of the three mark requirements.

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1 hour ago, Inciatus said:

I think you might be off by like a thousand damage per game. 3.5k is near or past a lot of the three mark requirements.

What i meant was winning by pure dmg output. But yeah, maybe i overestimated a bit.

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3 minutes ago, Gr1nch_1 said:

What i meant was winning by pure dmg output. But yeah, maybe i overestimated a bit.

I suppose that's also something that's really hard to predict in general since most people at least have some semblence of taking actions to win games even if by accident over just pure damage. I suppose you could check against most FADED players :fat:

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Don't sweat it.  Be happy that you're learning to deal more damage.  

As others have alluded, and I will echo:  1) At some point you will start realizing better when you really need to run, and when you should stay.  2) I found mine #'s to swing like a pendulum between WR & WN8 as stats improved over time.

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Indeed, i wouldn't sweat it. The two metrics can be fairly disconnected - especially if you are trying to pad one or the other. I think i managed 3.5k without turning teal WR. I doubt i could have gone much higher without relying on the extra empty clean up damage. If you aren't trying to pad deliberately then as people have suggested, i'd start focusing on when and where the damage is happening. I found if you look critically at most battles, only a portion of the damage is prior to the determination of the battle. Focus on improving just that portion and you should improve.

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I think the server you play on also influences your win rate. I usually play on NA West and this server is known to have issues with balancing teams due to low population. Yesterday I did 3000 WN8 and almost 70% win rate, today I had the same WN8 but 48% win rate and I played the same tank both days. Except that today the balance of teams was so wacky it was unbelievable. For example, I had a game where I was the only medium on the team with 12 TDs and 2 arty. I mean what is that? Of course we got completely curb stomped in that game and there were other ones with similar balancing problems. 

The other thing is being put into situations where you are low tier game after game. This is what happened today to me also while yesterday it was more balanced. You just can't influence games nearly as much if you are consistently the low tier tank in your matches because then you have to rely on your teammates even more so but as we all know that is a big mistake as most are too incompetent, but you have no choice, you are low tier. You have to hope that at least some of the other 14 tanks on your team know not to sniff glue.

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14 hours ago, Steel_Six said:

I'm torn with this.

One, I've disabled in game chat, because that's a distraction I don't need (and because it was way to easy to express frustration in game with it enabled).

Two, I don't have the stats up, just the color code of the players overall and their WR in the current tank. In some cases, it's a psychological barrier to overcome (like, logging into your third match in a row with all  tomatoes on your side and all kiwis on the other). On the other hand, knowing who I'm up against makes me play a more tactical game in a lot of situations. Not necessarily cautious, but I certainly don't yolo against the better players.

Currently, I haven't updated the service, so I'll play a few days without it being on and see if it makes a difference.

Its far more beneficial to learn to judge someones ability by watching them drive for a few seconds than it is to look at their stats. Just watching to see if someone is poking/driving efficiently or over angling is a far better way to judge them imo

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On ‎11‎.‎01‎.‎2017 at 4:39 PM, Steel_Six said:

I do use XVM and will allow that to dictate how I believe my team will respond

Don't read too much into WN8!

First off all it was a VERY good tool to compare players when it was developed because by then noone actually had grinded/padded it.

Second the vast majority of ok to goodish players (like me) are still VERY swingy. For instance I played a bit of WoT and thought it would be funny to give the Deathstar some playtime - boy do I suck in anything that is not medium or light... I played at less than 700 WN8 this evening...

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On 2017. 01. 12. at 8:25 AM, zapyoug said:

Its far more beneficial to learn to judge someones ability by watching them drive for a few seconds than it is to look at their stats. Just watching to see if someone is poking/driving efficiently or over angling is a far better way to judge them imo

This. I don't quite get the arguments often cited in favor of XVM that it somehow allows you to "see who is dangerous" or "allow you to adapt." No. This is what creates situations where 500wn8 arta is trying to snipe some unicum all game while ignoring a heavy lemming train in the open field, or where 5 people die yoloing an unicum because "hurrdurr good stats we must kill him."

Just play according to map and team composition. There is no need to differentiate based on stats. If you drive out into an open field like a retard, a 45% Löwe will just as easily farm you as a 70% superunicum. Just try to play to your highest skill level always, adapting to teams' deployment and changing situations, and you'l succeed.

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2 hours ago, nemlengyel said:

This. I don't quite get the arguments often cited in favor of XVM that it somehow allows you to "see who is dangerous" or "allow you to adapt." No. This is what creates situations where 500wn8 arta is trying to snipe some unicum all game while ignoring a heavy lemming train in the open field, or where 5 people die yoloing an unicum because "hurrdurr good stats we must kill him."

Just play according to map and team composition. There is no need to differentiate based on stats. If you drive out into an open field like a retard, a 45% Löwe will just as easily farm you as a 70% superunicum. Just try to play to your highest skill level always, adapting to teams' deployment and changing situations, and you'l succeed.

I'll provide some personal examples of how XVM has helped my game get better, or at least helped me increase my damage output.

First, on each map and with a normal distribution of classes, there are 'heavy' spots and 'medium' spots and 'td' spots to go to during deployment. One assume everyone knows this and one can get ones ass shot off rather quickly when one does this without considering who the opposition is.

I've learned better deployment options because I've followed what Uni's do in certain situations, and not knowing their skill level would have meant their movements would have been simple random chance.

A lower level player will take his T110E5 and put it into action with the other heavies. A Uni, if he sees a favorable deployment, will waffle stomp the 'medium' spot before turning back and dealing with the heavies. Knowing that a Uni is in that tank increases the possible variations of the game, and identifying where he will attack is knowledge that can help you decide which angle of attack you want to attempt.

A platoon of three green-blue mediums is bad news, and one can expect a fairly rapid push on the medium side. A platoon of three red-yellow mediums rarely demands the same level of concern.

I can watch Unis and near Unis redeploy on maps (either friend or foe, but it's more obvious with foe) in order to either capitalize on a weakness or stabilize a flank. I can't emphasize, for me, how important watching that has been in helping improve my game.

One of the first battles I had with XVM was sand river, and we had a Uni IS 6 on our team as top tier. So I'm thinking, great, battles in the bag.

Well

We get smoked, and it was getting obvious ( I had already died, so I decided to follow him). What he did was gave up a strategically important position for a more tactically advantageous one. Not that it was going to alter the outcome of the game, but it was certainly going to improve his odds of dealing damage longer. Me, I used to sit there in my 'spot' and duke it out regardless, wasting the opportunity to improve my EXP by doing more damage.  It was an important lesson to learn that one can still improve one's play even in a losing situation

 

The other night I was on redshire in the north spawn in my M48 and saw a platoon of E100s from G facing us. This isn't necessarily an XVM insight, however if I didn't know who G was but had been using XVM instead, I would have seen the increased danger that their skill level posed to my team. Based on who they were, I decided to offer flank protection to my heavies. I setup behind the hill (there wasn't any arty, thank god) where I had cover on the inside of my heavies position but couldn't get hit from enemies in the middle of the field.

They tried to rush our guys around that flank (my heavies were packed behind that rock formation in the east) but after tapping an E4 and the first E100, I was able to prevent my guys from being bum rushed.  One of the E100s didn't shoot at my heavies at all, he kept his gun on my position the entire fight. If he swiveled towards my guys, I would poke out, he'd see me and swivel back. If he kept his gun on me, I sat back (unless one of the other tanks tried to push, then I would accept a hit and tap him). Our heavies lasted long enough for our mediums to win their fight, sweep back and mop up what was left of their eastern push. Not a great stat game for me, but a great tactical read because of the knowledge of the level of the players across from me.

I also learned that Unis can shoot a dust mite off a mosquitos ass in that game; that E100 hit me twice at distance and I was moving and not showing much of anything.

Another game, I'm on Lakeville in the M48 and the enemy  only have two good players, both unis, one in a Cent AX, the other in a 907. Both those guys go city, a bunch of us go valley. Our valley push works pretty well, we had like 4 tanks make it across the ridge in good shape, so I swing back to move down the center road and support our city guys. While I'm doing that, I see these unis peel back and start taking on the valley tanks. By the time I can make it down the road (picking off a few cripples along the way) they've engaged and are waffle stomping our valley guys. We win the city, they win the valley, and it's me and a TD (that big Russian one) and some tier 9 heavy taking these guys on. Knowing how good they were really increased my level of focus, however it might have turned my TD compatriot into a moron, because he yoloed the 907 for some reason when he could have played off me to get better shots and got smoked. The heavy and I took out the AX, the 907 took out the heavy, and he ended up winning the match with 10hp. Which I count as a win for me :) 

Now, I don't know if they expected to win that game or not. And I am not clear why they didn't simply push the city than swing back. But I assume it's because it would have been a lot harder to get tactically advantageous positions if they let the push in the valley make it to the cap. Maybe someone here can answer that question.

I have always viewed XVM the way I view damage counters, as another means of figuring out what I should be doing at any given time on the map. I don't think it provides a good player any important bits of information, he already has that when he logs in. But for those of us who are still learning (24k games, sheesh, that's like 12 year of kindergarten) it really is informative. But only if you are using it properly.

 

 

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Food for thought...

Rather than wade through it all Page 4 is likely best.

 

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