thegeek2

0.6.3, More specifically, the death of stealth firing.

61 posts in this topic

9 hours ago, Mnemon said:

It particularly annoys me when some Zao player who stayed behind everyone else on his team complains at the end of a lost match '200k+ damage and still a loss...'. Well if he had taken risks and tried to off some DDs early on (the sub 10km detection range is very good for ganking DDs once they get busy with your own DDs) maybe his team would have won. :doge:

 

These are exactly the Zao players whose punishment I am looking forward to.

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I thought the stealth firing mechanic was fine as long as the window for doing so was rather narrow because it meant a player would have to have good situational awareness and ability to maneuver the ship to be able to maintain it for more than a couple of salvos. And it made for some interesting differences between ships. With the change it feels like some ships will now have one less trick in their toolkit and as a consequence have a bit less tactical flexibility. Specifically US and IJN DDs will pretty much be detected all the time if they choose to use their guns. That's a big change to their survivability and their role. (I say this because if you are knife fighting with another DD and he's the only one detecting you once he dies you fall back into concealment. In 6.3 that will no longer be the case because anyone in your gun range will still detect you and you'll have to forgo using your guns for 30 seconds to fall off detection. That will likely effect domination modes the most.)

Personally the stealth fire change won't impact me much. How I play the Mogami and Chapayev I don't rely on stealth firing to do any significant damage. I play those more with positioning in mind using islands for cover and limiting my exposure to return fire. And I don't play DDs as much as I once did. Probably the biggest reason I dislike the change is it marginalizes a lot of ships and the concealment play style. In general playing a stealthy ship is becoming less and less viable with each patch as each tool in that kit is removed.

Guess we will see for ourselves soon enough if my concerns are justified or not.

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As a part time USN DD captain this doesn't bother me because I never really used it and still did well. I used smoke and islands to fire from or fired when other ships were being focused on

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I'm not gonna start a new topic for this rant ... but DAMN - what is the point of a Shimakaze anymore ?  It's almost the equivalent of the Obj 268 in the old days of WoT!  US DD's like the Gearing are spotting me at near equivalent times, their torps are close to mine, and their guns say FU Shima. Combined with an unholy amount of Radar and Hydro at that tier - what is the effing point?  I finally make it through the grind and it's a damn near worthless tier 10.  Sure, I have a lot of room for improvement  - but my last match I had two DD gun kills in it, for a whopping 24k damage - eff my torps and shitty slow firing guns.  Forget closing on and getting a good spread on the BB's - here comes every campy cruiser cock blocking me every damn time.

Object 268 line had a great tier 8, a sublime tier 9 - get ready for the prize and NOPE nerfed to uselessness.  Shimakaze?  I'm done with it unless their is a need in organized play - but why not bring the Gearing or Khab instead - they are both better ...

 

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7 hours ago, Krollin said:

SF was/shouldn't be a regularly used tool in the Belfast toolbox anyway. Yeah, you can do it but the rainbow arcs mean it isn't all that effective.

SF is, IMHO, the WoWs equivalent of Arty in tonks. That said, the changes may break a few ships (watch the buffs they get in return) but are, for me at least, a very welcome change.

Carriers still retain that same special spot in my heart as tonks skycancer does :)

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I don't see much point in this if they aren't killing the invincibility field effect of smoke screens too.

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52 minutes ago, TouchFluffyTail said:

I don't see much point in this if they aren't killing the invincibility field effect of smoke screens too.

Because smoke is so hard to counter.

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Not everyone can just park in the cloud right next to the target.

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Just now, TouchFluffyTail said:

Not everyone can just park in the cloud right next to the target.

You need to give them a severe case of torpedus.

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6 minutes ago, Rodrigopine said:

You need to give them a severe case of torpedus.

Sadly, most DD players are too busy camping their own smoke clouds to bother with flooding other clouds with waves of deterrent.

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When this patch goes live, will there be any reason to pick Blys over Leningrad?

When introduced, Leningrad had bit better camo, comparable torps but more, almost same HP and better speed. I'd argue better overall agility as well b/c Lenin can comfortably afford accel. upgrade while Blys handles bit clumsy without rudder upgrade.

What it lacked vis-à-vis Blys was gunpower - although shell arcs were similar, it lacked both Alpha and DPM (about 2k short). It also lagged in stealthfire abuse department as well.

Recent Russian DD HE damage buff to 1900 has placed Leningrad DPM over Blys by about 1.5k. When stealthfire is gone, it will also be decidedly better in AFT range fights thanks to the speed.

About the only advantage Blys will have post patch is the alpha damage.

Edit: I haven't checked but does Blys have better fire-per-minute stat than Leningrad?

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Blys will still be able to turn and shoot at the same time, something the Leningrad  will struggle to do even under the most ideal conditions.

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5 minutes ago, TouchFluffyTail said:

Sadly, most DD players are too busy camping their own smoke clouds to bother with flooding other clouds with waves of deterrent.

Well, I drive a lot of IJN CAs so I'll either use my own torps or I will push into the smoke with hydro active depending on the situation and kill them with pew-pew. Or I'll have an Atlanta or Chapayev and use radar once my team has been alerted. ;)

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Hydro's pretty worthless in my experience, you'll die long before you have any chance of spotting with it. Meanwhile, radar either has the same range troubles or is shafted with a duration that lets no one get enough shots to really accomplish anything.

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With hydro or radar it's all about the timing. Don't activate too soon. Plus you don't want to telegraph your intentions by charging straight in. You gotta be sly about it. Attack from an unexpected direction.

The other thing about smoke too is you can always runaway. You don't have to accept that specific engagement especially when it's on their terms. Go dark, reposition and catch them out when they leave the smoke or when the smoke dissipates.

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Sure, running away works, if your ship is even capable of doing such, but that still leaves smoke without any effective counter.

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7 hours ago, BiggieD61 said:

I'm not gonna start a new topic for this rant ... but DAMN - what is the point of a Shimakaze anymore ? 

The point of the Shimakaze was, currently is, and in the future will still be, to allow baddies feel like they are actually good at destroyers whenever they happen to nuke someone that doesn't have any sort of situational awareness or basic in-game survival skills.

1 hour ago, TouchFluffyTail said:

Sure, running away works, if your ship is even capable of doing such, but that still leaves smoke without any effective counter.

Radar and Sonar are things.

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5 minutes ago, How_Terrible said:

Radar and Sonar are things.

And rather useless at countering smoke. Radar is perfect for countering IJN DDs though.

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The big question in my mind, is how the gunboat DDs will adapt to this: Will they stay back farther or will they go in and mix it up, as they are spotted regardless of which range they fire from.

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Just now, TouchFluffyTail said:

And rather useless at countering smoke. Radar is perfect for countering IJN DDs though.

Clearly we have had somewhat different game play experiences.

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I expect gunboat DDs to do the exact same thing they do now, camp smoke until another DD rushes them.

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8 hours ago, TouchFluffyTail said:

And rather useless at countering smoke. Radar is perfect for countering IJN DDs though.

I have no idea where people get the idea that Hydro and Radar are useless at countering smoke.

They are very good at defeating the clouds of noob, you just have to know how to use them to defeat it.

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9 hours ago, TouchFluffyTail said:

I expect gunboat DDs to do the exact same thing they do now, camp smoke until another DD rushes them.

Six ways to counter smoke:

1. Shoot torpedoes into it

2. Close using cover and use radar or hydro (Hindenburg and DM are kings of this).

3. Use the spotter plane to blind shoot the smoke. Even a single hit will usually result in the DD stopping firing to reposition. 

4. Rush the smoke. He has to leave or be spotted once the smoke ends and gunned down.

5. Go elsewhere and let him sit in smoke with no targets.

6. Kill his spotter.

If none of these are possible then either a) you've been outplayed or b) you fucked up. There are many ways to counter smoke play, we do it all the times in comp and pub. 

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Pretty much Onboard's list was what I was trying to convey. The only thing I'd add is if you are in a ship that is exposed to fire from smoke for an extended amount of time and you can't reposition easily then you've probably over extended so it's not so much a smoke issue as it is a positioning issue. I don't play BBs as much as CAs but I can tell you that in my NC I avoid a lot of the fire from smoke issue by recognizing when enemy ships are trying to position to use it and maneuvering accordingly to deny or minimize their opportunity. It's kind of a joy to get enemies to waste their smoke by popping it prematurely, especially in the case of UK cruisers because they are super vulnerable when trying to reposition when the smoke fades, especially to a ship like the NC.

AS for DD hunting CAs the Roon is also a joy to play with it's good maneuverability, German Hyrdo and quick firing, accurate 203s. Can usually delete DDs in 2-3 salvos.

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I mean, it's a nice thought and all, but none of those are all that useful in practice. I've found the best counter for smoke are stealthy DDs since those are the only things capable of surviving the rush into it. Everything else is a minor annoyance most of the time.

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