TheSovereign

Post patch thoughts

122 posts in this topic

Everyone trying out LTs may be a problem. I worry that WG is going to look at the LT stats and decide LTs are still overpowered because so many LTs yolo into each other, leading to one team suddenly being down 4 tanks and losing. It's not just because there are so many of them -- it's because so many of the players are BAD. I think that's contributing to the huge number of blowout wins I've been seeing (caveat: anecdotal, just me thinking about the past few days) as it doesn't take much luck or skill difference for one team to win the initial LT battle and be up several tanks. Even if those LTs are poor tanks (and the tier 9s aren't), that's a lot of extra guns.

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@DHP There were 3 arty per side on patch day and the day after.  Thursday it mellowed out a bit more.  Friday I never saw 3 arty, ever.  Max I saw was 2 and that was 1 game only.  

So hypothetically, the longer this update stays, the less arty we'll see? I don't know but IF what I'm assuming happens, then it's proof that arty was only played as a griefing tool against a certain level of players by shitters.  

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I posted this on reddit the other day. 

 

Quote

I don't know if people like reading this shit but I don't mind typing to so whatever. Anyway, what up my dudes I'm this idiot and I'm here to share my thoughts on the patch in a different perspective then others hopefully maybe idk.

Arty

As someone who took a shit ton of fire from arty in the previous patches either out of focus or my monkey positions (rip barks), I was happy to see a change that allowed my type of play to flourish a bit more. In actuality this works fairly well sometimes, you get a bit more leeway in terms of playing positions and not get one-shotted or bullshitted by some mouth breather in the back.

Is it better then what we had? Yes and no. You don't get oneshotted obviously, but there is no such this as arty safe anymore. Are you behind a building? Na fam don't care splash around it. Are you fairly low HP late game trying to carry? Na sorry I'm going to flick my mouse across my mouse pad and snap you like I'm in a STRV. Splash and the accuracy as they stand at the moment are completely asanine. On the topic of stun, it isn't terrible (pause). It isn't terrible if there is a single arty in the game and that said arty isn't the Tier X Bat arty. You are able to manuerve around a single arty and use your replenishable kits to your advantage. However, the minute two are in the game you can say good by to that. Stun, track, stun, track rinse repeat till either you get yolo'd or DPM'd down. Conceptually this isn't a problem and in essence its turning the class into more of a support role like the dev's and most of us wished. However, in practice its clearly fucked and no fun to play against. Like fuck having to fight off an enemy that you cannot directly engage the entire match by just trying to use your kits in a timely manner. The devs just need to limit one per game. Even then though, I worry that it won't help much.

MM

Ight so this was fairly underhyped compared to the arty changes but I think this is the best thing to come out of Minsk in years. No longer are you constantly getting Tier X games in your Tier VIII or god forbid Tier VII vs Tier IX. My only gripe with this is that there isn't a hard cap limit to light tanks. Currently, there are games running with more then half of each team being lights. You can chalk this up to the hype of the new lines and such but without a hard cap I still think we will see wack games like this in the future.

This next comment may be non concerning to many. Some may shout stat whore or whatever, I don't care. I personally play this game for performance. I like three marking my Tier X's and going for server high dpgs. The new MM currently or has the chance to completely screw you with the health pools. For instance, your worst enemy when going for a consistent 4k-5k session at Tier X is getting games with minimal Tier X's and seeing mostly Tier VIII's. Yes, it is easier to farm and bully these Tier VIII's, but the said farm isn't going to be as high as a full Tier X game. (Thank god they setup these instances with single tier battles.) I personally rather outplay Tier X's then bully Tier VIII's. Anyway, if I wanted to club low tier in higher tiered tanks I'd play Tier IX's. From the perspective of any other tier, this new MM is amazing. Tier VIII only battles is great for some of the older power creeped premiums and some of the old left for dead tech tree tanks. I haven't played low tiers in years, outside of the occasional Leo meme plt. but it also seems great for them especially.

Lights

I really don't have much to say about these changes as I feel that lights are completely useless outside of the current meta unless they land on a select few maps thus I don't play them for fun. They also have horrible carry potential in my opinion. The "new" Tier IX's are astounding from the few I've played. The new 13 90 is a completely new tank, and the T49 has found a new life with the 90mm. I can't comment on the rest.

Now for the controversial shit that some of you will hound me for. I liked the nerf to light tank VR. I felt that the potential VR on the higher tiered lights was way too high. Anything past around 520 ish is cancer for the game, which correct me if I'm wrong, was completely broken by the pre nerf tanks. 520 going off memory basically allows you to camo pierce heavies and most large TD's once they instant entire your 450 circle. Anything past starts going into bushes and such. My problem lies within this. Any monkey in a light has the ability to completely yolo a flank, suicide scout if you will and negate proper positioning within a bush. This is a fundamental mechanic to the game that takes years to master properly (which fucking sucks) but to have any meron yolo and completely negate that is retarded. Most of the maps as they stand now are not setup for VR to be abused like this. For instance, consider Lakeville, if you are not perfectly humping the redline in a super heavy, you are basically fucked. You can't get to the flank you belong on and if you do, chances are you are missing near half your health all due to some guy that blatantly yolo'd to the mid bush or better yet the rock. Giving them VR that just edges out Tier X meds is fine. The increased movement and camoflauge outweighs the scouting ability of the meds and puts them in a perfect position. I don't neccesarily agree with the alpha nerfs they took but then again I also don't agree with them being able to trade with meds.

Anyway if you enjoyed this read or not I can talk about other shit. I'm not the best but I still think I have a bit of insight to teach. Maybe idk. Peace

 

 

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25 minutes ago, Shifty_101st said:

@DHP There were 3 arty per side on patch day and the day after.  Thursday it mellowed out a bit more.  Friday I never saw 3 arty, ever.  Max I saw was 2 and that was 1 game only.  

So hypothetically, the longer this update stays, the less arty we'll see? I don't know but IF what I'm assuming happens, then it's proof that arty was only played as a griefing tool against a certain level of players by shitters.  

Thank god.

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1 hour ago, Shifty_101st said:

@DHP There were 3 arty per side on patch day and the day after.  Thursday it mellowed out a bit more.  Friday I never saw 3 arty, ever.  Max I saw was 2 and that was 1 game only.  

So hypothetically, the longer this update stays, the less arty we'll see? I don't know but IF what I'm assuming happens, then it's proof that arty was only played as a griefing tool against a certain level of players by shitters.  

Boy, is that good to hear, that's what I was hoping for. Let's hope it sticks. Also can we just take a moment to appreciate the removal of arty platoons? Sure you'll sometimes get random clickers still coordinating but it's nonetheless a big improvement.

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4 hours ago, Shifty_101st said:

@DHP There were 3 arty per side on patch day and the day after.  Thursday it mellowed out a bit more.  Friday I never saw 3 arty, ever.  Max I saw was 2 and that was 1 game only.  

So hypothetically, the longer this update stays, the less arty we'll see? I don't know but IF what I'm assuming happens, then it's proof that arty was only played as a griefing tool against a certain level of players by shitters.  

We saw the same trend with arty post-nerf. Over the long term however its numbers went back up. Don't get your hopes up people.

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The MM is still a mess. Lob-sided teams where one gets a bunch of heavies and the other doesn't get any. I'm also not sure if the reusable consumables are the best thing as it seems to give players more reason to be reckless and yolo. It allows people to be even more dumb than usual and not pay the price for it.

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1 hour ago, DirtyACE7 said:

The MM is still a mess. Lob.. Lop-sided teams where one gets a bunch of heavies and the other doesn't get any. fify

^ This.  They still haven't fixed the problem where the distribution of top tier of the same class for both teams are the same, yet somehow WOWS can make it work ... scratches head in bewilderment.   Add to that out of 15 matches played last night my platoon was bottom tier in all but 2 of them .... thought they were supposed to give preference if you played 2 games bottom tier ///????

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I found since the patch, I'm just dodgy arty splash, I peek, take a shot, spend 10 seconds dodging arty splash, peek again, fire, spend another 10 seconds dodging arty splash, rinse repeat, doesn't matter if you think you are behind cover or not.  Either you play a Heavy and eat the hits, or you play TD/Light so you can fire with camo, or relocate quickly.  Playing a hulldown medium is boring as fuck now, WoWS is more exciting than this.

Yawn

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20 hours ago, DHP said:

You are analysing a very specific situation and come to the conclusion that it is not worrysome because the driver can just backout into cover with no damage taken. 

 

My analyse is that arta just stun trough a GOD DAMN MOUNTAIN and is thefore kind of shitty. If WG wanted to double the fucking splash then maybe they should have started with improving their splash calculation so it doesn't go through solid object. And i don't know programming but my guess would be that it's 100times more time consuming to rework how splash should go around solid object (and not trough it) then just change a single number and double the stupid splash so i would go out on a limb and say that WG will never rework how splash will work... . 

I'm not, I'm assessing the fact you took no damage and that stun has a pretty much negligible impact generally.

Should stun go through solid objects? No, WG should fix that.

But it's still just stun and stun is largely meaningless hence why I don't get the hysteria or why people are using odd little examples like this as a rod to beat it with. It's mountains out of molehills IMO. It's like getting pissed about ghost shells, annoying? yes, should get fixed? yes, but hardly a major issue. 

I played loads of games on Sandbox, didn't get annoyed by arty once, stun really didn't impact me at all, if you just play normally than 9 times out of 10 you can wait out the stun and get on with your game. 

I played 6 games last night and stopped playing because I got hit for over 800 by arty 3 times in those 6 games and one of those games had zero arty.

It's just a massive difference and I can't wait for this arty to come to EU so I can finally play my game without getting obliterated from across the map.  

15s of having my tank a bit slower and aim less, big whoop, who cares when I'm losing half my HP currently.

I watched some guy post a vid on the NA forums whining about the stun. He sat in the same spot in a 3 arty game, barely moved and was trying to trade whilst outnumbered 4 to 1 on a corner. Yet it was the arty that was the problem even though he played stupidly, got hit like 7 times but arty and it was STILL the enemy tanks that took most of his HP. He was taking double digit hits from tier 6 & 7 arties in a tier 8 tank and still moaning. 

Generally IMO people are massively over reacting and over exaggerating about the stun and splash. 

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Arty is trash now. It's better to try shooting lights and paper tanks rather than doing zero damage hits on heavy tanks especially when you have to rely EVEN MORE on the shitters that make up the rest of the team to actually do anything to stunned tanks since hey guess what? You can't even platoon with competent players anymore as arty. 

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2 hours ago, tajj7 said:

Generally IMO people are massively over reacting and over exaggerating about the stun and splash. 

 

I think its hard to discuss the changes because it more or less total rework of arties roll. 

Some of them are great, some of them are fine and some are crap.

Changes to arty would be great if it was limited to 1 per team and if they slightly change the stun overlap 2 would work fine but if we are talking about 3 per team (or toon which is banned) the stun gets very powerful and you can shut down a flank for how long you desire. 

Splash and stun is somewhat broken in itself as it "works" when it should have not, maybe they can code it again for a slightly less AoE and not to go thru objects? 

They should also add a new perk that works like BiA (or rework BiA), something like "Battered vets" which reduce the duration of stun by 25% and the effect by 30%. Explaination is simple as a veteran crew who fights together get more used to and less affected by arty stun effect. 

TL/DR : Stun and splash is fine with 1 arty but not if there is 3 arties

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Have to side with @tajj7 here. People are making it into WAY bigger of an issue than it really is. 

 

I think a lot of it is were all conditioned that when we get a direct hit/near splash from arty to INSTANTLY RAGE. I catch myself doing it almost every time. *Boom* "FFS FUCKING ARTY PISS OFF SHOOT SOMEONE ELS... Oh..he only hit me for 250. Meh whatever, screw off anyway"

 

I've actually had arty completely bounce a few times now. Pre-patch I can only remember of one single instance where I bounced a T92 shooting AP. And that was only because it was an AP round at an extreme angle. 

 

I'm not by any means saying I like how arty is now, what I am saying is it is LEAPS AND BOUNDS better to play against than it was. I can actually take risks now because I know I'm not going to get 1 shot nuked by an orbital ion cannon, I'm probably just going to get hit for a couple hundred and stunned for a bit. Hardly as game ruining for me as it was to get hit for 1250+ from some AP slinging cunt.

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2 hours ago, Wessmen said:

I think its hard to discuss the changes because it more or less total rework of arties roll. 

Some of them are great, some of them are fine and some are crap.

Changes to arty would be great if it was limited to 1 per team and if they slightly change the stun overlap 2 would work fine but if we are talking about 3 per team (or toon which is banned) the stun gets very powerful and you can shut down a flank for how long you desire. 

Splash and stun is somewhat broken in itself as it "works" when it should have not, maybe they can code it again for a slightly less AoE and not to go thru objects? 

They should also add a new perk that works like BiA (or rework BiA), something like "Battered vets" which reduce the duration of stun by 25% and the effect by 30%. Explaination is simple as a veteran crew who fights together get more used to and less affected by arty stun effect. 

TL/DR : Stun and splash is fine with 1 arty but not if there is 3 arties

I still think stun and splash needs a tad nerfing and clearly there are some buggy issues like the stun going through rocks. 

Hell I'm still for removing the stupid thing but I do think ,like @TheSovereign says people are reacting to 9.18 arty with their 9.17.1 hats on, they are reacting to getting hit but not really taking in what the hit has actually done to them.  

And yes I agree that 3 arty even with stun is too much, but then 3 arty currently is too much, you get focused by 3 arty currently you are dead unless you get very lucky or hide. 

But the fuss needs to die down, see how many clickers are about in a month or two then we'll truly see the state but I'm still of the opinion that I'll take stun all day over current arty even with 3 arty in the game. 

 

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I'm interested in people's thoughts on the MM in here since WG are thinking of introducing it in Warships.

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49 minutes ago, tajj7 said:

I still think stun and splash needs a tad nerfing and clearly there are some buggy issues like the stun going through rocks. 

Hell I'm still for removing the stupid thing but I do think ,like @TheSovereign says people are reacting to 9.18 arty with their 9.17.1 hats on, they are reacting to getting hit but not really taking in what the hit has actually done to them.  

And yes I agree that 3 arty even with stun is too much, but then 3 arty currently is too much, you get focused by 3 arty currently you are dead unless you get very lucky or hide. 

But the fuss needs to die down, see how many clickers are about in a month or two then we'll truly see the state but I'm still of the opinion that I'll take stun all day over current arty even with 3 arty in the game. 

 

I actually agree that the change is a good one,  but the mechanics should not allow for the above.

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Had a battle last night with 1 arty.  Didn't know weather to be happy or sad it was on our team.

NfjvOa9.png

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The tier 9 lights. All of them received significantly improved power/weight which feels wonderful. Often the speed limit felt more like an aspiration instead of an actual limit with the 9.17 state of the tanks. You can accelerate, climb, juke, or drift with much better results now than before. The Type 64, which was previously one of the peppiest lights and did not receive these changes, now feels downright pedestrian after an entire weekend of tier 9 lights. Don't even get me started on jumping into the 4502 Ausf. B and feeling like you stepped into a temporal distortion.

AMX 13 90

I think this was a big winner from the changes. It lost two shells from the drum but gained considerably better gun handling, faster inter- and intra-drum reload, and the ability to mount a vstab. Few other changes but that's probably the biggest thing. I often found it difficult to actually land all six shells in many situations thanks to awful gun handling and the long intra-drum reload, now you no longer need to separate moving from shooting with several seconds of aiming. You can be a light tank instead of a tiny mobile tank destroyer.

T49

The other big winner. The 90mm lost the high penetration HESH round but gained a 212mm penetration APCR round and massively better gun handling. The tank went from existing solely for the 152mm derp to being an excellent run-and-gun DPM machine. You can still use the derp for fun but I personally prefer the consistency and flexibility of the 90mm instead of throwing the dice every ~20 seconds.

RU 251

Mixed but generally positive bag. Lost 10kph off the top speed and ~300 DPM, but gained gun handling, 200 HP, and a high velocity high penetration AP round (no more softballs!). Unlike many other lights did not receive a huge hit to base dispersion. Still, unfortunately, has Woll Smoth face and I never really liked in the first place and still don't, which is probably coloring my perception.

T-54 Lightweight

I rather think this one got the short end of the stick. Initially it seems like a net upgrade. Little more HP, better penetration, muzzle velocity, etc. etc. But holy shit 0.40 dispersion. This is just beyond aggravating. I wasn't even trying to camo snipe. Wargaming's idea that lights should get in there and fight it out is at odds with a game that severely limits your avenues of approach and is full of high caliber TDs that can end you in two shots or autoloaders that can do it in a drum.

WZ-132A

The only "new" one, but actually quite similar to a WZ-132 w/100mm that got the T-54 Lightweight treatment. Oh, and it lost 10 meters view range. One unique thing it has is a super 100mm gun with 320 damage instead of the 250 of the T-54L, which is similar to the WZ-132 and WZ-132-1 compared to their peers. With these light changes Wargaming has unified the Chinese lights and mediums under the theme of wedge-hulled bowl-turreted Soviet knockoffs with higher damage guns. I completed it over the weekend with better win rate and average damage than my WZ-132 but I'm not really sure they can be compared. There were, after all, lots of bad light drivers out and about to farm, and I platooned so much more with this than the WZ-132.

Also, aaaaaaaaahhhhhh 0.40 dispersion!!!!

Edit: I really want to reiterate on how frustrating 0.40 dispersion is. Basically take your mental guide book on the D-25T and throw out the pages on damage per shot advantage and overmatch (so most of the good parts). It's really quite an experience when you fully aim a shot at the center of a broadside Type 5 Heavy and it flies over the engine deck or hits the dirt because the tungsten got homesick.

Edit 2: I forgot to mention the ratio of barrel length to tank size on the 132A is a bit silly.

5ygW5bn.jpg

All that for only 12mm more penetration than the T-54L.

Overall

I would say they took a class that was niche and marginal and made them anywhere from slightly less niche and marginal to about the same. They still, unfortunately, do not have maps that allow them to truly stretch their legs and leverage their primary advantages over mediums, so for the most part if you want to win just bring mediums instead.

 

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Stun is annoying but not game breaking The increased rate of fire and large splash radii are what really makes the cancer more malignant - they should have done one or the other.

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Yes yes like I said arty definitely still needs work (aka GTFO and remove that shit already) but its better. Stun distance is FAR too large. If the shell doesn't do anything damage it doesn't need to be stunning. This seems like just a plug to appease arty players and get them more xp via "Oh well at least I stunned them." And the 2D stun cylinder rather than sphere is straight nonsense. How did they possibly think that was a good idea?

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10 hours ago, StranaMechty said:

The tier 9 lights. All of them received significantly improved power/weight which feels wonderful. Often the speed limit felt more like an aspiration instead of an actual limit with the 9.17 state of the tanks. You can accelerate, climb, juke, or drift with much better results now than before. The Type 64, which was previously one of the peppiest lights and did not receive these changes, now feels downright pedestrian after an entire weekend of tier 9 lights. Don't even get me started on jumping into the 4502 Ausf. B and feeling like you stepped into a temporal distortion.

AMX 13 90

I think this was a big winner from the changes. It lost two shells from the drum but gained considerably better gun handling, faster inter- and intra-drum reload, and the ability to mount a vstab. Few other changes but that's probably the biggest thing. I often found it difficult to actually land all six shells in many situations thanks to awful gun handling and the long intra-drum reload, now you no longer need to separate moving from shooting with several seconds of aiming. You can be a light tank instead of a tiny mobile tank destroyer.

T49

The other big winner. The 90mm lost the high penetration HESH round but gained a 212mm penetration APCR round and massively better gun handling. The tank went from existing solely for the 152mm derp to being an excellent run-and-gun DPM machine. You can still use the derp for fun but I personally prefer the consistency and flexibility of the 90mm instead of throwing the dice every ~20 seconds.

RU 251

Mixed but generally positive bag. Lost 10kph off the top speed and ~300 DPM, but gained gun handling, 200 HP, and a high velocity high penetration AP round (no more softballs!). Unlike many other lights did not receive a huge hit to base dispersion. Still, unfortunately, has Woll Smoth face and I never really liked in the first place and still don't, which is probably coloring my perception.

T-54 Lightweight

I rather think this one got the short end of the stick. Initially it seems like a net upgrade. Little more HP, better penetration, muzzle velocity, etc. etc. But holy shit 0.40 dispersion. This is just beyond aggravating. I wasn't even trying to camo snipe. Wargaming's idea that lights should get in there and fight it out is at odds with a game that severely limits your avenues of approach and is full of high caliber TDs that can end you in two shots or autoloaders that can do it in a drum.

WZ-132A

The only "new" one, but actually quite similar to a WZ-132 w/100mm that got the T-54 Lightweight treatment. Oh, and it lost 10 meters view range. One unique thing it has is a super 100mm gun with 320 damage instead of the 250 of the T-54L, which is similar to the WZ-132 and WZ-132-1 compared to their peers. With these light changes Wargaming has unified the Chinese lights and mediums under the theme of wedge-hulled bowl-turreted Soviet knockoffs with higher damage guns. I completed it over the weekend with better win rate and average damage than my WZ-132 but I'm not really sure they can be compared. There were, after all, lots of bad light drivers out and about to farm, and I platooned so much more with this than the WZ-132.

Also, aaaaaaaaahhhhhh 0.40 dispersion!!!!

Edit: I really want to reiterate on how frustrating 0.40 dispersion is. Basically take your mental guide book on the D-25T and throw out the pages on damage per shot advantage and overmatch (so most of the good parts). It's really quite an experience when you fully aim a shot at the center of a broadside Type 5 Heavy and it flies over the engine deck or hits the dirt because the tungsten got homesick.

Edit 2: I forgot to mention the ratio of barrel length to tank size on the 132A is a bit silly.

5ygW5bn.jpg

All that for only 12mm more penetration than the T-54L.

Overall

I would say they took a class that was niche and marginal and made them anywhere from slightly less niche and marginal to about the same. They still, unfortunately, do not have maps that allow them to truly stretch their legs and leverage their primary advantages over mediums, so for the most part if you want to win just bring mediums instead.

 

Yeh I was looking at the 1390 and it did seem one of the lights that got the biggest benefit. 

Shame the aim time is still quite poor but at least the dispersion is much better so you shouldn't feel it that much. Plus it actually has hp/ton now so is actually fast and agile. 

Only downside is that 380m view range, but that is somewhat ok because it has such good base camo and you can;t fit a rammer so you could actually fit both optics and binos for extra view range. 

What I don't get is why the 240-250 alpha guns the tier 9 lights had got such a DPM nerf, the T49 is ok (but IIRC was like 2.6k base before the change) but the RU now has worse DPM than it had before for no apparent reason.

Tier for tier though, I think the tier 9 lights have probably gained the most out of all the lights (whereas previously the tier 8 lights were probably the weakest) and our stronger than their tier 10 counterparts IMO.

EDIT: Just to note the biggest buff for the T-54 ltw is it's dispersion values, it has 20% better dispersion than the T-62A and I think the second best dispersion values in the game behind the T-100 LT (and maybe the T92 light if they ever bring that out)

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Following the changes, discussions here, and some of the vods & streams from NA server - it seems to me that WG is trying their best to reduce the carry potential of lights that good players are capable of. 

 

They don't want Unica to be top damage dealers in matches, with their lights. Do you have the same feeling, or is it just my imagination?

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58 minutes ago, tajj7 said:

Tier for tier though, I think the tier 9 lights have probably gained the most out of all the lights (whereas previously the tier 8 lights were probably the weakest) and our stronger than their tier 10 counterparts IMO.

It's because WG balanced the T10 based on the T9 but then they nerfed the T10 but forgot about the T9.. :jebaited: But sshhh don't tell them.

I’m  reading on forums and reddit that basically lights aren’t really matched up against each other anymore. Seing 3 top tier light tanks against 3 top tier heavy is not uncommon.. Where is mostly super rare prior to 9.18. And second thing i’m reading is that being top tier is pretty rare now with the new MM which sound about right since only a handful are chosen to be top tier each time now..

@Claus Kellerman  seem's to have witness this first hand. :trump:

 

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12 minutes ago, DHP said:

It's because WG balanced the T10 based on the T9 but then they nerfed the T10 but forgot about the T9.. :jebaited: But sshhh don't tell them.

I’m  reading on forums and reddit that basically lights aren’t really matched up against each other anymore. Seing 3 top tier light tanks against 3 top tier heavy is not uncommon.. Where is mostly super rare prior to 9.18. And second thing i’m reading is that being top tier is pretty rare now with the new MM which sound about right since only a handful are chosen to be top tier each time now..

 

@Claus Kellerman  seem's to have witness this first hand. :trump:

 

Lights are supposed to be matched against each other, TDs, SPGs and Lights are mirror matched, might be problems with NA's very small populations.

Plus there are the all same tier templates and the 5-10 templates so you shouldn't just be getting 3 top tiers. 

If that is not working then hopefully they've seen that and will be fixing it because NA getting the patch first was clearly to test the MM. 

 

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