Sign in to follow this  
Tanager

Pz. IV H - making tier 5 glorious

24 posts in this topic

Much to my surprise, there was no thread for this little gem.  The last thread I could find was one started in March 2014, with the most recent post of March 2016, and I decided against necro'ing it, since it dated to before the divvying-up of the Pz. IV, it seemed.

I kept this thing for three reasons: there isn't a German premium medium I remotely want, but I need a crew trainer; it's actually fairly easy to make a steady income with this thing (nothing like a good premium, but 25-30k isn't that hard with a premium account), and good grief but is this little sucker GLORIOUS.

Compared to its derping tier 5 brethren (Sherman and KV-1S), I'd take this one any day, I think.  Better reload, better gun handling (feels that way to me, haven't actually done the stat comparison), better mobility, better camo, spaced armor on the sides and turret, good gun depression, etc.  And since at tier 5 you see plenty of guys pushing flanks in T67s, well...might as well be the welcoming committee.  And it's playable and competitive for its tier even with a 75% crew, which is why I decided to use it as my designated German med crew trainer.

And oh, this is the second tank ever on which I've gotten my 2nd MoE.  I *might* even try for my third (running food because why not).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Tanager said:

I kept this thing for three reasons: there isn't a German premium medium I remotely want, but I need a crew trainer; it's actually fairly easy to make a steady income with this thing (nothing like a good premium, but 25-30k isn't that hard with a premium account), and good grief but is this little sucker GLORIOUS.

Yeah german premiums are pretty meh- though i heard the m10 is ok with the buffs.

But 25-30k- you playing with he only? whats your ammo loadout? i find even the 120 pen heat on the swedish tier 5 extremely unreliable at best most of the time. So you running he, heat, or mostly he?

I remember back ages ago (last patch) when the vk2801 still had the derp i loaded similar amounts of he and heat and never used the ehat except against scouts because it was unreliable- i used heat against low armoured targets and he against tougher ones XD

And good luck on 3 marking it, 3 marking things is really hard, and i doubt food will make a huge difference to that- id save them for use on a higher tier tank. Though the pz 4 is a good tank, so i think you can 3 mark it with patience :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you're trying to 3 mark a tank, then you need and try to maximize your DPG and assists every game - therefore you need every advantage you can get. 

Food can be the difference between getting you over the mark, or falling short at 93% because you didn't reload fast enough, missed out on assist etc.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, garryallen said:

Yeah german premiums are pretty meh- though i heard the m10 is ok with the buffs.

But 25-30k- you playing with he only? whats your ammo loadout? i find even the 120 pen heat on the swedish tier 5 extremely unreliable at best most of the time. So you running he, heat, or mostly he?

I carry 10 rounds of HEAT, plus a few AP (no good reason why), but I have pretty much stopped firing anything but HE.  I really don't find that I need the HEAT - against the really tough targets, 100mm or so of pen doesn't get you that far in any case.  And no splash radius...

So yeah, that's part of the reason I make credits in this thing.  I'm not paying for food yet, I had about 50 of them stockpiled, down to 40 or so now.  Obviously I wouldn't be making good income if I were paying for food.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pz.IV H is one of those low tier gems. This was the tank I kept, and if an evening in everything else had gone to hell, I would play the H at the end of a session just to relax.

I three marked it one evening in my last battle, and was so tired just before bed I almost missed the notification. I wasn't even trying for it.

In conclusion, please do not broadcast it to widely but the Pz.IV H is good.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Tanager said:

I carry 10 rounds of HEAT, plus a few AP (no good reason why), but I have pretty much stopped firing anything but HE.  I really don't find that I need the HEAT - against the really tough targets, 100mm or so of pen doesn't get you that far in any case.  And no splash radius...

So yeah, that's part of the reason I make credits in this thing.  I'm not paying for food yet, I had about 50 of them stockpiled, down to 40 or so now.  Obviously I wouldn't be making good income if I were paying for food.

Oh the heat isn't for the tough targets, its for the easy ones.... like shermans and t34s

And even if the food is free, its better to sell it or use it in a tier 8-10 tank... but if you want to go for it (though maybe I'd save some for the last few battles if you are trying to 3 mark)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can't make the derp gun work on any tank, ever. The RNG hate me when using derp, like missing a fully aimed shot on stationary target or bounce with HE because RNG say so. After a dozen games of 0 - 100 damage with 105 mm Pz IV H, I just give up and went back to historical L/48 gun, which I can make better use of.

But since they buffed the Pz III/IV to have identical stats to Pz IV H when using L/48, I'm not sure anymore if there's any reason to run L/48 on Pz IV H, but I still keep it around anyway, because it's a few tanks in this game that can run historical set up without turning into unplayable junk.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I enjoyed it when grinding it recently. I'm not a fan of these low-tier derps so used the 75mm (unlocked from other tanks) which is actually a very good gun for the tier. I ground it out with a crummy 80% crew and it was perfectly fine. 650dpg and 53% win rate in 32 games required to finish the grind. Found it a solid performer despite the fact I barely got the crew to 100% in that time.

It's basically average-to-good in almost all aspects so a very comfy tank to play in the tier.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

the derp 105 is just utterly, ridiculously and hilariously effective. 

was running a statpadding  sealclubbing platoon with 2 T67s yesterday, and what they couldn't stab repeatedly to death, I just hammered to a pulp. 

and this happened: http://wotreplays.com/site/3586264#windstorm-thomchen114-pz_kpfw_iv_ausf_h

no damage taken, one of my T67s got stuck trying to boost up a mountain, and the enemy team never stood a chance

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Hellvn said:

Detps should be removed from the Panzer 4 and Sherman for this reason.

Discuss...

For what reason, specifically?  They make the game too enjoyable? :)  Seriously, for what reason?  I don't think the tank is OP, but it can be a beast in the right hands for sure.  And one-shotting t67s never gets old (seriously, why do people continue to push the front in t67s...).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 17/5/2017 at 7:02 AM, Tanager said:

For what reason, specifically?  They make the game too enjoyable? :)  Seriously, for what reason?  I don't think the tank is OP, but it can be a beast in the right hands for sure.  And one-shotting t67s never gets old (seriously, why do people continue to push the front in t67s...).

Because using the 105 and assuming you do 350hp a shot on average, you're taking approximately 70% of a medium's HP in one shot.  8 seconds later, you do the same again, so you're potentially 2 shotting any tier 5 med you meet withinh 8 seconds and one-shotting many equal tier TDs.

Let's extrapolate this to tier 10.  70% of a tier 10's HP would be around 1400 HP, so you're running around with a gun doing 1400 damage every 8 seconds.  Do you see any tier 10s doing this?   No - they run around with 400 alpha guns with a roughly 8 reload, requiring an average of 5 pens to kill an equivalent tier med.

But yes, you're right about the T67s - these things should be killed at first opportunity.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, Hellvn said:

Because using the 105 and assuming you do 350hp a shot on average, you're taking approximately 70% of a medium's HP in one shot.  8 seconds later, you do the same again, so you're potentially 2 shotting any tier 5 med you meet withinh 8 seconds and one-shotting many equal tier TDs.

Let's extrapolate this to tier 10.  70% of a tier 10's HP would be around 1400 HP, so you're running around with a gun doing 1400 damage every 8 seconds.  Do you see any tier 10s doing this?   No - they run around with 400 alpha guns with a roughly 8 reload, requiring an average of 5 pens to kill an equivalent tier med.

But yes, you're right about the T67s - these things should be killed at first opportunity.

 

I know what you're getting at but the DPM/HP ratios are insane in general in low tiers. I do actually consider it a huge game issue that low tier gameplay involves most tanks being able to kill most other tanks in 10-15 secs of shooting. HP pools increase way out of proportion to DPM as tier increases which is why low tier gameplay doesn't resemble high tier gameplay at all, and you can get vaporized instantly a lot easier in, say, a tier V. I think it's a major issue in new player retention tbh because the time to kill in low tiers is so damn low.

WoT Blitz actually handles low tier gameplay way better by massively increasing low tier HP pools while decreasing DPM (for example a 37mm-armed tier 3 or 4 that gets ~25 rounds/min in PC WoT gets ~15 in Blitz) so the average time to kill is increased significantly and gameplay through the tiers is more consistent from the get-go. With less punishing DPM all-around noobs can actually learn stuff in the low tiers that will take them through the entire game (like poking between reloads, try applying that in tier 4 on PC where every other tank gets 25 rounds/min). Ever since I tried Blitz I've been wishing that PC devs would re-balance low tiers around Blitz's example...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Now imagine how good the 105 derps used to be 2 - 3 years ago before they got the big nerf ....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Hellvn said:

Because using the 105 and assuming you do 350hp a shot on average, you're taking approximately 70% of a medium's HP in one shot.  8 seconds later, you do the same again, so you're potentially 2 shotting any tier 5 med you meet withinh 8 seconds and one-shotting many equal tier TDs.

Let's extrapolate this to tier 10.  70% of a tier 10's HP would be around 1400 HP, so you're running around with a gun doing 1400 damage every 8 seconds.  Do you see any tier 10s doing this?   No - they run around with 400 alpha guns with a roughly 8 reload, requiring an average of 5 pens to kill an equivalent tier med.

But yes, you're right about the T67s - these things should be killed at first opportunity.

 

Yeah, this is just a problem with low tier gameplay. For example, the T-34 and T67 are prime examples of tanks with far too much DPM for HP pools. I made a post several years ago outlining the disparity between DPM and hp of tanks, but I'd have to go dig it up. However, what I do know is that the T-34 can kill 3 O-I Exps in 1 minute. To imagine that (lets say for example) the Obj 140 got 9000+ DPM is insane, to kill 3 Mauses in 1 minute. I used these examples because the Maus and O-I exp have the highest HP in tier, with the T-34 and 140 having very high DPM for their tier as well. I agree that the derps are bad for gameplay, but I think for different reasons. However, DPM/hp differences is huge as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Was having a rough stretch, so I hauled this out again to make myself feel better.  Finished off going 18-3 in my IV H with this prime example of why the IV H gives zero fucks:

G3jaja0.png

One spotting away from a Scout medal, too.  Running optics+vents with a (relative to tier) good crew means you outspot pretty much everyone other than other horrid sealclubbers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/14/2017 at 5:34 AM, Tanager said:

Was having a rough stretch, so I hauled this out again to make myself feel better.  Finished off going 18-3 in my IV H with this prime example of why the IV H gives zero fucks:

One spotting away from a Scout medal, too.  Running optics+vents with a (relative to tier) good crew means you outspot pretty much everyone other than other horrid sealclubbers.

You're making me miss this vehicle again. It's one of the most fun tier 5s. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But t5 meta is cancer... I love it too but I can't stand what people do there plus wining feels like kicking puppies.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, hazzgar said:

But t5 meta is cancer... I love it too but I can't stand what people do there plus wining feels like kicking puppies.

What've you got against kicking puppies?  Excuse me, I'm off to hijack a bus full of nuns...AKA play my IV H some more.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Tanager said:

What've you got against kicking puppies?  Excuse me, I'm off to hijack a bus full of nuns...AKA play my IV H some more.

I like animals more than people so A lot. If you are going to kick a nun on the other hand - no problem. One recently tried to tell me I'm "beautiful like Jesus" and wouldn't leave me alone ffs. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So apparently that's what I've been doing wrong. I've been playing it with the non-derp gun, and it's been absolutely miserable. No armor, meh mobility, gun that scares no-one, one-shottable by many tier 7s and some tier 6s. Good gun depression, but so what on a turret that isn't very strong and has a giant tumor on top anyway.

Edit - Holy crap, the tier 6 VK 3001 P is just so much more comfortable to play.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, picked this back up for on-track, and fucking struggling... 105, 27/16/16 HE/HEAT/AP... decent? how to run? Forgotten this tank and role in meta...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Errants said:

So, picked this back up for on-track, and fucking struggling... 105, 27/16/16 HE/HEAT/AP... decent? how to run? Forgotten this tank and role in meta...

Ditch almost all of the AP shells. They are useful only for one-shoting arty. AP pen is almost the same as HE, use it only against paper targets - when you wanna be sure not to hit the tracs (sky cancer).

You will rarely need more than 10 HEAT, since you will not spam those at range, but rather use them for side-shots on tanks like Tiger...or frontal engagements when you rush same tier meds (be vary of T-34, if they angle they can bounce low roll HEAT)

HE carry a lot, i need at least 40. They are useful for house-destroying, for instance Prokhorovka city, when enemy cap. Shoot HE and you can destroy 2 houses with every shell if you hit straight between them. Also, some tanks with strong turrets (like T29) will take like 30-50 dmg, and O-I not more. 

This tank does not have a strong role in meta, T-34 with 57 mm can buzzsaw through heavies with APCR from (safe) range, you can derp-snipe (sometimes hilarious, mostly frustrating), vision kite on a few vision maps left, and in city flank heavies and HEAT (or snapshot with HE).

Basically, try to inflict as much pain as possible on T67s, Hellcats and paper TDs (once spotted).

derp has actually a mild gun handling, it is not a russian one. A much better gun than German "2nd class guns", i.e. those with middling accuracy/pen and alphas, like 75 mm l 48, 8,8 cm Kw.K. 36 L/56 , 10,5 cm Kw.K. L/52 ...

If you do not have a prime german gun (long 75, 88, 105 mm, or 128/150 mm boomstick), derp is the best option anyway. Mid-tier germans have trash guns. just compare 75 mm l 48 with 57 mm of soviet fantasy...an example of bias.

On 12/30/2017 at 6:11 PM, Darvek said:

Edit - Holy crap, the tier 6 VK 3001 P is just so much more comfortable to play.

This. from an ugly duckling to a serious contender in its own tier in one patch (buff somewhere in spring of 2017...).

It was previously a downgrade from Pz. IV, notw it is my keeper.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.