OneSlopoke

Has anyone tried to study lower to medium skillsets?

35 posts in this topic

As a horrible example, a 10% WR player can aim and click but can't WASD.

A 40% WR drives and hides well enough, but SA is still not understood.

I'm interested in a hard look at this. Not just anecdotal. It seems that determining what a 99.9999999 player knows vs. 99.9999998 would be impossible and not worth the info (other than knowing how much camo paint is required to fully cover the epeen)

Anything like that out there?

thx

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There's no such thing as a 10% WR player. After somewhere between 40% and 45% your skill level has nothing to do with your WR.

The biggest problem with this type of analysis is that differences between players lower than about 95% of the server are a lot more difficult to see on any given game or even discern largely from data. The quality of players in the last 5% differ more widely than the players in the lower 95% by a significant amount.

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I might have misunderstood. You are saying that the difference between a 96% player and a 98% is easily discernable because the skill difference is so great?

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50 minutes ago, OneSlopoke said:

 a 10% WR player can aim and click but can't WASD.

 

is there someone so fucking bad that is capable of achieving such feat?

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I'm starting to be sorry I pulled 10% out of my er thin air. But yes. When I started playing the game six years ago I joined beginning Clans that could not field a full team and we ALWAYS lost. I didn't care about stats in those days.

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I think the WN8 range for the bottom 95% is tighter than it is for the top 5% which has a considerably greater range (greater variance). This is from my own observations though so don't take it as the truth or fact of any sort.

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8 hours ago, OneSlopoke said:

I might have misunderstood. You are saying that the difference between a 96% player and a 98% is easily discernable because the skill difference is so great?

The lowest 20% of the server (WN8 < 450) are either using a bot to play, are playing only for the fun of driving and shooting a tank(this is a big one), or have a disability hindering their performance.

The 20% to 50% band (450 < WN8 < 750) are just learning where to pen tanks, what to NEVER do, and what the rolls of each class are.

The 50 to 65% band (750 < WN8 < 900) understand the basic mechanics, understand the important parts of the map (but not usually where their tank would be best suited based on the enemy team), and generally know which tanks they should attack and which they should avoid if they can.

The 65% to 85% band (900 < WN8 < 1250) are very similar to the above band but are starting to gain more map awareness and understand some of the more obscure mechanics. They generally know the armor layout of most tanks, and are starting to get an idea of where and how to position their tanks to be more effective.

The 85% to 95% band (1250 < WN8 < 1600) are beginning to understand when they should pull back from a flank before it's too late, know some of the more optimal locations to position their tank, have a good understanding of the spotting and vision mechanics through experience more than just reading the wiki. Are starting to notice more opportunities to push or take a shot that lower skill levels would have been oblivious to.

95% to 99% band (1600 < WN8 < 2000) Starts to become obvious that players know not only how vision mechanics work but how to use them to their advantage. They identify opportunities to push and are starting to be able to effectively flex to different flanks depending on their tank. Starting to pick up simple but effective skills that keep other players from hitting them, like wiggling or hugging with certain tanks.

99% to 99.9% band (2000 < WN8 < 2450) Starting to be able to abuse vision mechanics on major flanks and across open areas. Begins to be able to expect what other players will do based on their tank type and location. Starts to understand not only true strengths and weakness of each tank they encounter, but exactly where that tank would be best located and is able to take advantage of the poor positioning of other players. Is far more map aware and can usually effectively flex to another major flank depending on the tank. Are able to focus on shooting while the driving and armor positioning of their own tank is done more through muscle memory.

Upper levels 99.9%+ (WN8 > 2450) Not only are able to abuse vision mechanics on major flanks, but can usually do so from any point during transition to another flank. Greatly understand what damage trades are good trades and which they should avoid. Fully understand exactly where each tank on the enemy team should go and can easily take advantage of those not using their tank to its full potential. Are able to understand what a team will likely do based on their known positions and their own teams positions and can set up in unusual but strong locations based on that assumption. Are almost never just waiting for something to happen. If tanks are dark they're either getting themselves to a better position or actively finding the enemy. Understands how to keep calm in total loss situations and can slowly pick off the other team, even in some cases winning the game alone against what would otherwise be a loss.

EDIT:  I tried to all-encompass the unicum group in a single block that would give a general understanding of how they play better. I should have mentioned that it wasn't all or nothing, lots of people can play purple (and pull the WR for it) while utilizing lots of different playstyles. When I was writing it I was thinking more of unicums I've seen in batchats and the like that tend to abuse vision early and then use speed, timing and several other skills to take other opponents out when the time is right. I agree that the ability to abuse terrain and understand your tank enough to do so, as well as the ability to abuse armor and quite possibly other players lack of understanding of it, are all traits of different styles of unicum that aren't mutually exclusive.

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Thanks for going to all that trouble. Very concise and complete. I have recognized a lot of these activities in matches but, it doesn't mean I can do them:) The reason I like to know about these things (besides learning to do them) is to know what to watch out for. That's what I use XVM for (among other things), so that I know which of the above behaviors to expect from which tank, ideally. Hence my interest in the lower levels. It helps to judge what I can get away with :)

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@Android25 wrote it out perfectly. Kudos!

@OneSlopoke uninstall your xvm and don't make assumptions based on those colors. I'm serious, you need to learn to "play it as it lies" each and every match. Learn from your experiences, but treat each situation as a novel puzzle. That's a huge and relatively less discussed aspect of processing the game's information. There is a time and place for xvm, but to use it predictively is an error, and adds unnecessary complication to an already daunting stream of information. Ultimately the specific intention can only be reliably observed at each battle moment, and tank positions, numbers and matchups matter as much or more than supposed differences in player quality. Put another way, treat every enemy as purple, every teammate as red and then revise only based on direct observations or interaction.

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I understand your points and will take those into consideration, including your sig ideas. However, I'm not interested in throwing any data away. I don't lean on XVM by any means. I just use it in certain situations. I have played w/o XVM for periods of time for various reasons and didn't turn purple :) So, point taken but, I'll stay with XVM for now. You have given me something else to think about though, which is why I came here.

Thanks

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3 hours ago, Android25 said:

99% to 99.9% band (2000 < WN8 < 2450) Starting to be able to abuse vision mechanics on major flanks and across open areas. Begins to be able to expect what other players will do based on their tank type and location. Starts to understand not only true strengths and weakness of each tank they encounter, but exactly where that tank would be best located and is able to take advantage of the poor positioning of other players. Is far more map aware and can usually effectively flex to another major flank depending on the tank. Are able to focus on shooting while the driving and armor positioning of their own tank is done more through muscle memory.

Upper levels 99.9%+ (WN8 > 2450) Not only are able to abuse vision mechanics on major flanks, but can usually do so from any point during transition to another flank. Greatly understand what damage trades are good trades and which they should avoid. Fully understand exactly where each tank on the enemy team should go and can easily take advantage of those not using their tank to its full potential. Are able to understand what a team will likely do based on their known positions and their own teams positions and can set up in unusual but strong locations based on that assumption. Are almost never just waiting for something to happen. If tanks are dark they're either getting themselves to a better position or actively finding the enemy. Understands how to keep calm in total loss situations and can slowly pick off the other team, even in some cases winning the game alone against what would otherwise be a loss.

I'm not so certain about your focus on vision mechanics as a major separator...

I know how vision works, but on the fly, besides parking behind a bush or a knocked down tree, I can't abuse vision for shit. The major increase in WN* performance for me was getting more consistent with hitting and penetrating and learning how to abuse terrain (gun depression) to hit without being hit.

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2 hours ago, canadiantrex said:

I'm not so certain about your focus on vision mechanics as a major separator...

I know how vision works, but on the fly, besides parking behind a bush or a knocked down tree, I can't abuse vision for shit. The major increase in WN* performance for me was getting more consistent with hitting and penetrating and learning how to abuse terrain (gun depression) to hit without being hit.

For me vision/ camo is *fart noise*

This is a brawling game. Being able to outbrawl whatever you come across is far more important than anything else. Anyone who says otherwise is kidding themselves.

I didn't even bother with attempting to abuse camo until recently when I started playing more LTs and even then it's mostly just out maneuvering your opponent and being a thorn in their side by capitalizing on them being preoccupied 

understanding how to use vision is unecessary to be a 60%+ WR player

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some of my tanks have 4k wn8, some others 1k wn8. I am the same player.

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7 hours ago, Strigonx said:

is there someone so fucking bad that is capable of achieving such feat?

I've seen 32%, I think it was someone with a triple VK30.01P platoon.

1 hour ago, SchnitzelTruck said:

 

understanding how to use vision is unecessary to be a 60%+ WR player

It used to be extremely useful 4 years ago, it still is important to know aswell. With 30v30 we may see TD/Light/medium meta come back which would be great. There used to be a time when you could spot as a light tank and your team could actually capitalize on that by shooting at the enemies, while not getting shot back. Then corridor infested shit-hole maps came and ruined the game for that type of play, and everything became damage. I used to play SU-122-44 and T-54 in triple platoons aswell, and the shit was ridiculous, being able to snipe enemies without being lit all day long in many positions, and bring in retarded win rates (80-90%). It was maybe too much, for certain, but they overkilled it.

 

For OP, I think everyone comes in at different levels so it's extremely difficult to say. I came in after playing Red Orchestra for years, so I knew of angling, and weakspots, and where different modules are, such as ammo, and engines. I'd say overall one of the more consistent things that come about as players become better is map awareness, not only looking at the minimaps, but being able to predict where enemies will be based on what tank they are.

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@canadiantrex @SchnitzelTruck I tried to all-encompass the unicum group in a single block that would give a general understanding of how they play better. I should have mentioned that it wasn't all or nothing, lots of people can play purple (and pull the WR for it) while utilizing lots of different playstyles. When I was writing it I was thinking more of unicums I've seen in batchats and the like that tend to abuse vision early and then use speed, timing and several other skills to take other opponents out when the time is right. I agree that the ability to abuse terrain and understand your tank enough to do so, as well as the ability to abuse armor and quite possibly other players lack of understanding of it, are all traits of different styles of unicum that aren't mutually exclusive.

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5 hours ago, OneSlopoke said:

I understand your points and will take those into consideration, including your sig ideas. However, I'm not interested in throwing any data away.

You should. There is so much information already in the game that no one can use it all. If you add XVM, it takes your concentration away from something else. Especially at your level, you would be far better of concentrating on basic stuff than trying to guess what other players will do based on their color. There is no way to jump from yellow to purple, just go with basic stuff first, take your heavy tank to where heavy tanks usually go and and that kind of stuff, with your number of games you should have a pretty good clue about these kind of things already. Concentrate on basics and don't try to make it too complicated for yourself. I see your most played tanks are all heavies, most(and all T8) with less than 49 % WR, so there is definitely work to do there. 

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8 minutes ago, Android25 said:

@canadiantrex @SchnitzelTruck I tried to all-encompass the unicum group in a single block that would give a general understanding of how they play better. I should have mentioned that it wasn't all or nothing, lots of people can play purple (and pull the WR for it) while utilizing lots of different playstyles. When I was writing it I was thinking more of unicums I've seen in batchats and the like that tend to abuse vision early and then use speed, timing and several other skills to take other opponents out when the time is right. I agree that the ability to abuse terrain and understand your tank enough to do so, as well as the ability to abuse armor and quite possibly other players lack of understanding of it, are all traits of different styles of unicum that aren't mutually exclusive.

I always sound grumpy so ignore me ^_^

fuk u Raj, I like my upboats

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1 minute ago, SchnitzelTruck said:

I always sound grumpy so ignore me ^_^

No, I agree, unicums tend to be able to abuse just about everything in the game... including light tanks with incorrect WN8 values ;)

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Just now, Android25 said:

No, I agree, unicums tend to be able to abuse just about everything in the game... including light tanks with incorrect WN8 values ;)

It's not my fault WG buffed them!!

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This is a very helpful discussion. Thanks to all who responded. As a low performing player, the thing though that is most problematic is positioning. That relates to vision of course but getting to the best place to have that vision is probably my biggest hurdle. Some battles, I have it. I'm where I'm supposed to be when I should be. Most battles, I don't have it. I hope this is not high jacking the conversation but extending it. I would be interested to know what you all would advise.

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2 hours ago, VTSplinter said:

Moist battles 

high jacking

:frenchy:

Heh he fixed it 

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3 hours ago, VTSplinter said:

This is a very helpful discussion. Thanks to all who responded. As a low performing player, the thing though that is most problematic is positioning. That relates to vision of course but getting to the best place to have that vision is probably my biggest hurdle. Some battles, I have it. I'm where I'm supposed to be when I should be. Most battles, I don't have it. I hope this is not high jacking the conversation but extending it. I would be interested to know what you all would advise.

Watch your own replays so you can find the patterns in your position errors. Post replays you can't figure out yourself, with specific questions. Take notes to identify and eliminate your most common position errors. Compare and contrast your replays with streams/replays of the best players.

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The problem of WN8 and winrate and really every single metric in this game is that with 25% RNG and 15vs15 and maps and all you can never be sure of anything in any single battle. I've seen 45% 500 WN8 players with 6 kills winnign the game. It's rare, but it happens. When you go to the 1k WN8 region the player in question can do just about anything.

And this is a HUGE part of why WoT is so successful - it is never same same. One game you melt a whole flank in your IS-3 next game you are dead 50secs into the game in the same IS-3. on the same spot of the same map.

So if you want you can measure people by how likely it is that they will cause you serious trouble and a Unicron will be 99.9% likely while a deep red will be 40% likely (so you can often take on two reds at the same time but not three).

Still, it isn't overly helpful.

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16 hours ago, Strigonx said:

is there someone so fucking bad that is capable of achieving such feat?

I saw a 29% Panther II once. Yes, they were that bad.

My tier 4 Leopard had a 9% win rate at 44 games (4 wins, 40 losses). I was actually disappointed when it the crew finally woke up and started the longest win streak I've ever had in a tank. Can't lose them all, I guess.

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My take, as a unicum who is unicum despite:

  • hating vision
  • never using vision (not now, not 4 years ago, not ever, optics for campers, vents for unicunts)
  • used to die in the first 3 minutes
  1. Anyone not purple cant shoot for shit, and even many purples are bad at shooting, badly aimed (shooting uper side half of IS7 instead of lower half, not aiming track wheels, shooting the hull side instead of turret side or vice versa), Shot placement of anyone not purple ranges from poor to awefull
  2. If shot placement is bad, then target selection is goddamed terrible!! On average, the average player ALWAYS shoots the wrong target, ALWAYS, they go for the kill when you should spread dmg, they spread dmg when the kill is important, they shoot tier 8 tanks when a tier 10 should be shot, they bomb an tier 10 when the tier 8`s need some love, they hit autoloaders when scouts should be shot, shoot scouts when a TD needs 750 dmg in hes face and so on and on and on.
  3. Just like shot placement, mid and late game deployment is also terrible, its almost like most player have no clue what to do when they somehow survive the first few minutes. They either try to outcamp tds, rush heavys, go back cap, or not cap, its totally random, and 90% of the time the wrong choice, as rule of thumb for myself:
    1. what are posible ways to play?
    2. what is the worst they can do?
    3. they will do that!
    4. im more often right as wrong... -.-

ps: good example of 1: HEAT, i have zero problems yolo blazing HEAT shells through almost anything i encounter, yet so many people time and time complain about bad accuracy and troll HEAT, i would almost say: HEAT > APCR, due to no autobounce and more raw penetration, the ONLY real disadvantage of heat is that you cant penetrate brick walls and suchs, and thats it, the extra shell speed is for me not needed, meaning APCR has no real advantage...

ps ps: 

 

3 troll shots in a row on long range, on moving targets, and its not luck, since i do this over and over, bad accuracy and shell speed are only a problem if you cant shoot / aim...)

or this Stalin guides derp shot:

(its 50% slowmo, but you can still see how far i aim in front of him / see the tracer of my shell)

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