lordawesome7

opinions on sirfoch being censored?

222 posts in this topic

I wasn't in the cc program to begin with, despite being offered it, because I was asked to remove all my recorded video that involves me sipping on a beer... isn't that a staple of sir foch's channel?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Veo said:

I wasn't in the cc program to begin with, despite being offered it, because I was asked to remove all my recorded video that involves me sipping on a beer... isn't that a staple of sir foch's channel?

Only of his live streams. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, MagicalFlyingFox said:

Only of his live streams. 

That's the thing though, I don't do YouTube, I needed to remove my previous live stream videos and stop from then on, but its whatever. CC doesnt let you keep the tanks anymore sadly

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Veo said:

That's the thing though, I don't do YouTube, I needed to remove my previous live stream videos and stop from then on, but its whatever. CC doesnt let you keep the tanks anymore sadly

From what I'm hearing from this thread, WG aren't exactly consistent in their standards for the CC program.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The people complaining about OP tanks seem to be complaining only about armor.  I don't hear anyone talking about any other feature that makes them OP, or fussing about tanks having too much pen (we praise tanks with high pen) or about tanks being too mobile (again, we like those).  I just hear fussing about armor.  And the Defender is the one usually mentioned. 

I'm sorry, but I don't find it any harder to fight Defenders than I do other heavy tanks (and certainly not as hard as the high tier Japanese heavies).  They have weakspots. Aim! They're not some magical tank that wins games just by showing up.

And armor is one of the variables in the game.  Game "balance" (whatever that is supposed to mean) includes having some more heavily armored tanks with compensating weaknesses, like, for instance, being slow.  The pen on the Chrysler, for instance, is low for a T8 heavy to compensate for its increased armor (in front).  The reload on the Defender is slower even than the IS-3.  

Seriously, some of you are talking like some of these tanks are invulnerable. Like armor is some over-riding advantage.  Or like you want all tanks to be as easily penned as lights.  Armor makes it easier for people to play badly a bit longer, yes.  But it doesn't make people playing badly that much more of a factor in the battles I play at least.  

And I'm not interested in speculations about how much % WR increases for baddies as some kind of evidence of OP status.  The VK100.01P has a higher win rate and good armor.  Why aren't people using those in CW for instant wins?  Because it has compensating weaknesses, perhaps?  In fact, the WZ-132 has almost as high a WR, according to Vbaddict.  How is it OP?  

And bullshit predictions about how soon WG will die are bullshit.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Griphos said:

And I'm not interested in speculations about how much % WR increases for baddies as some kind of evidence of OP status.

K, best go with gut feel then.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, MagicalFlyingFox said:

Yes. I also like it when WG want to make CW great again and then release tanks which are instantly meta in CW that you can BUY with REAL MONEY and skip ALL the GRINDS.

 

I also like it when you can BUY a tank that is flat out BETTER than ALL (bar IS-3 because that's a medium/heavy/td/spg all in one) other tanks in the same tier for pubs giving you no incentive to actually grind tanks because fuck that, I'll just buy something better than what i need to earn.

Its a game that rewards the grind. Or was. If they want to make money long term, this wouldn't have happened. It seems their business plan has shifted to short term profits at the expense of game longevity and this outcry is because WE ENJOY THE GAME and don't want it to die. 

 

edit: Seriously though, what the fuck is the point of actually grinding when you just play a tier 9 in tier 8 which you can buy which renders all your other tier 6-8 obsolete since MM will be full of OP tanks which you can't do anything about?

still can't buy skill.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, Ezz said:

K, best go with gut feel then.

Actually, that's what I'm rejecting, as I said, "speculations" about how some tanks increase WR in the absence of actual data (and I mean meaningful data, gathered over a significant range for a sufficient number of players to actually be representative and predictive).  

If the evidence is that the Defender has a very high win rate on Vbaddict, then that makes the WZ-132 OP as well, which is just silly.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Griphos said:

Actually, that's what I'm rejecting, as I said, "speculations" about how some tanks increase WR in the absence of actual data (and I mean meaningful data, gathered over a significant range for a sufficient number of players to actually be representative and predictive).  

If the evidence is that the Defender has a very high win rate on Vbaddict, then that makes the WZ-132 OP as well, which is just silly.  

284c5dbaa4.png

 

61594f6200.png

http://wot-news.com/game/tankinfo/en/eu/ussr/R134_Object_252K

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Griphos said:

Actually, that's what I'm rejecting, as I said, "speculations" about how some tanks increase WR in the absence of actual data (and I mean meaningful data, gathered over a significant range for a sufficient number of players to actually be representative and predictive).  

If the evidence is that the Defender has a very high win rate on Vbaddict, then that makes the WZ-132 OP as well, which is just silly.  

Well no. vbaddict simply presents win rates for the set of players in a tank. Hence it's not ideal for determining if something is OP, just a general idea (fair enough if that was your point). Other sites (link coming when i find it edit, ninja'd above) present WR in a tank relative to the win rate of the player.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, Griphos said:

-snip-

Well, part of the problem is that you're buying a tank that vastly supersedes other tanks in tier and below tier. I've mentioned before in the thread why this is bad, it erodes trust in the playerbase and divides the veterans and newbies because they paid for their tier 8 win button as opposed to grinding for it.

The reason why you hear players complain about armor is because it increases survivability in a very binary way that is partially controlled by RNG (+/- 25% penetration) and isn't as skill indexed as mobility (which is based upon game sense and positioning). The 252U is the biggest offender because it has very easy armor (point straight at enemy, shoot tank) to play with and is very forgiving. Way back when, people loved the FCM 50t, it didn't have a lot of armor (or even that great of a gun) but it was highly skill indexed, rewarding players with good positioning.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I get that armor increases survivability, and so is less skill sensitive, but it doesn't guarantee survival.  I see plenty of people playing well armored tanks badly and dying early in the battle.  I'm sure you do too.  What I'm finding hard to swallow is the idea that any tanks offer a "win button."  I'd sure buy one if I could find one!  I'm not seeing the "vastly supersedes"....

The graphs above are interesting.  That's the kind of data I was asking for.  However, what those show is that bads are still pretty bad even in these "OP" premiums.  You have to win more than half your games (which, as we all know, most people don't) before playing one of these tanks helps you out that much.  If you win 47% of your battles overall, you might win just over 50% in a Defender.  But I'm betting that's the case for a number of tanks.  Is the suggestion that WG should make premiums that don't allow anyone to win more than their average?

The IS-3 is an interesting case, since many people call it OP.  And the graph suggests that the very best players do very well in it indeed, but the rest of us do about average in it.  I suspect most of the rest of us think of it as OP because the really good players talk about how much they like it and think it is OP.  I would agree the Defender is more forgiving than the IS-3.  

Another point is that the overall WR for all of those players ranges across the percentages in divergent ways.  For each of them, that win 55%, say, that average includes tanks where they win 70% of the time across 100 or more battles, and tanks where they win 45% of the time.  The ones they do well in are just the ones they do well in, not necessarily OP.  

Take some of my stats for instance.  I have 170 battles in the T-44, almost all of them much earlier in my WoT experience (haven't had that tank for quite a while) and I've won just under 61% of the time in it, 5% more than my average WR.  Is that tank OP?!  I have 124 battles in my SuperP (I clearly grind too much and never play any single tank for many battles...so these are some of my higher battle count tanks), and I have a 62% WR in that.  Nobody will say it's OP with a straight face.  I like it.  It's fun.  But you see my point, I hope.

I'm not even sure I fully understand what would count as OP.  Some tanks are better than others.  Some premiums are better than others.  I just don't see any of them "vastly superseding" other tanks.  If some tank really did, then wouldn't that be the only tank we see on the battlefield?  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Griphos said:

 But you see my point, I hope.

You're just one data point tho. There is way too much that could influence just one point. Hence the wider samples get used.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Of course its the case for a number of tanks. Specifically the tanks that are broken like the VK100.01P. If the entire plot is above the overall line, there is a definite issue. If your anecdote were the reality, it'd reflect on the graphs but 

486aa77a68.png

Does it? Your data point is insignificant. 

Yes, a bad is still bad in a defender. BUT they are more effective than if they were in a tier 8 tech tree tank (except the VK100.01P). THAT is a problem. 

 

The only reason why we don't see solely 1 tank on the battlefield is because people want to play multiple classes, want to get to the tier 10, find the tank fun and/or WG decided to stop selling it. Plus now, we get to choose what flavour of OP we want to buy with our money. Still though, the most played tank in tier 8 is the Obj252u/Defender. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, it mostly comes in forms of how much effort does it take for the tank to succeed. It takes less effort for a Defender to do well than, for example, the STA-2 or Mutz. This is basically the "skill floor" of the tank, or how easy it is to play at an ok level. The 252U's skill floor is low, due to its forgiving armor and alpha. The STA-2's skill floor is higher because it requires a much finer understanding of game mechanics to play at the same level or get the same damage a 252U can. WG has been releasing more and more of these premiums that are extremely easy to play, (notice how most of the stuff they've released recently is armored stuff) and doesn't require a great deal of mental exercise. The other problem I have is that these premiums mess with the CW meta like nothing else. You're limited more by your wallet than by your time you spend grinding. It feels really disappointing to be like "oh, I have a competitive tier 8 CW tank that took 2 months to grind for, now I can play with my clan!" then the newbie who only has tier 7s buys a tier 8 premium like the 252U and it feels like you've been kinda cheated.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, canadiantrex said:

still can't buy skill.

I know and it hurts.  I ease the pain by tapping the 2 key and buying Wn8 and booze. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And yet the Defender is the only one people keep mentioning.  What are the other premiums that are so OP?  That they are releasing premiums with lower skill floors, I grant you.  But after a little bit, people learn how to counter them and those that buy them don't do much better in them.  

I think the reason we don't see battles with just one tank is because although some tanks are better than others (no argument from me or anyone about that, I suspect), none of the better ones are so much better.  I seriously doubt wanting to play multiple classes or get to T10 would dissuade the vast unwashed not to play a tank in which they really could win a lot more.  

And I'm not sure I see a problem with bads being a bit more effective in a premium than in a tech tree tank.  They're still not that effective.  And one premium like the Defender isn't destroying the game.  As I said to start with, I don't find them hard to fight, and I suspect you guys don't either. 

I think the Defender stands out as a premium that is ridiculously easy for bads to play better in.  I think it's kind of alone in that respect.  Does MOVE even do CW?  In the CW I've done since the Defender came out, there have been a lot of them, but the IS-3 is just as effective, if not more so for some strats/maps.  So, you're not out anything.  And we're just talking about T8 CW anyway.  The change in lights did more to mess up the T8 CW than all of the premiums combined.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, MagicalFlyingFox said:

Still though, the most played tank in tier 8 is the Obj252u/Defender. 

Thought it was the skorp.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, MagicalFlyingFox said:

I'm looking at the wrong shit :(

Its about 11th. 

That being said, last i looked, 7 of the top 10 played 8s were all premiums.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Because people are grinding credits to buy their T9 and T10 tanks, not because they're OP.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah was more pointing at their prevalence rather than any balance issues that may present.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Griphos said:

And yet the Defender is the only one people keep mentioning.  What are the other premiums that are so OP?  That they are releasing premiums with lower skill floors, I grant you.  But after a little bit, people learn how to counter them and those that buy them don't do much better in them.  

I think the reason we don't see battles with just one tank is because although some tanks are better than others (no argument from me or anyone about that, I suspect), none of the better ones are so much better.  I seriously doubt wanting to play multiple classes or get to T10 would dissuade the vast unwashed not to play a tank in which they really could win a lot more.  And I'm not sure I see a problem with bads being a bit more effective in a premium than in a tech tree tank.  They're still not that effective.  And one premium like the Defender isn't destroying the game.  As I said to start with, I don't find them hard to fight, and I suspect you guys don't either.  

I think the Defender stands out as a premium that is ridiculously easy for bads to play better in.  I think it's kind of alone in that respect.  Does MOVE even do CW?  In the CW I've done since the Defender came out, there have been a lot of them, but the IS-3 is just as effective, if not more so for some strats/maps.  So, you're not out anything.  And we're just talking about T8 CW anyway.  The change in lights did more to mess up the T8 CW than all of the premiums combined.  

(patriot has smaller sample)

60ac125cef.png76dc0785f2.png

b748f75f8b.png

(values for the normal tank were broken, no graph.)

 

And so what about CW? Pubbies don't play Clan Wars. 

95% of players won't be on the global map, it doesn't bloody matter. 

Plus the fact that they're even viable for clan wars is just wrong. Just like the CromB. 

 

Just because you don't find them hard to fight doesn't mean its not a problem. Besides. What are you going to do in a tier 6 against one of those? There shouldn't be an "insta win" criteria in the game like there essentially is now (Which team has more superheavies or Which team has more defenders/chrysler Ks). 

If all bads are sucking less in a specific than how bad they actually suck overall, there is something wrong with the game. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.