leggasiini

Supertest: STG, because we dont have enough premiums

76 posts in this topic

Makes sense. I was curious because I often read about how the Type's not what it used to be due to nerfs but few agree on what's actually been changed about it.

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2 hours ago, Ezz said:

They ranged from mobility at one point, to its MM at another point. Sadly back in those days we didn't have the plethora of data mined hidden stats, so I guess we'll never know the full extent. Some of their patch notes back in the day were laughably vague. Like 'kv5 was buffed' levels of vague. By most accounts the gun handling also took a hit. And of course this all presupposes the thing was drastically op in the first place. At that stage snib was about the only reliable source of server data, so the levels of analysis into balance were somewhat more limited than they are now.

FFS. You were in the topic where type59 nerfs were discussed and you still distort it. MM is still pref. There was a silly moment but now the MM is as it was. Also GM posted stats changes:

 

@Sapros

To quote GM from another topic:

Type 59:

  • Increased the traverse speed from 45 to 46 deg/sec.
  • Reduced the gun dispersion during vehicle rotation by 5%.
  • Reduced ground resistance by 10%.
  • Changed the Norinco 12150L engine tier from IX to VIII.
  • Repair cost of Norinco 12150L engine has been increased by 22%.
  • Weight of the hull increased from 15,400kg to 16,478kg.
  • Armoring of the Type 59 turret increased from 104mm to 130mm.
  • Armoring of the Type 59 hull sides decreased  from 65mm to 60mm.
  • Reloading time of the Type 59 100mm gun increased from 8.0 sec to 8.7sec.
  • Increased the aiming time for the 100 mm Type 59 gun from 2.86 sec to 2.9 sec.
  • Increased the damage value of the Chuan bei-412 shell from 230 to 250 points.
  • Increased the penetration value of the Chuan bei-412 shell from 175mm to 181mm.
  • Increased the damage value of the Chuan chao-412 shell from 230 to 250 points.
  • Increased the penetration value of the Chuan chao-412 shell from 235mm to 241mm.
  • Increased the tower traverse speed from 45 to 46 deg/sec.

 

 

 

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increased weight = reduced mobility, regardless of terrain resistance. same on flat ground though. Gun got nerfed in the dpm slightly. 

reduced dispersion on rotation was negated by increase in rotation speed. Aim time increase. 

physics nerfed mobility. 

MM was nerfed at one point, then went back to normal. 

apparently early on they resized the model. 

so according to patch notes, Type 59 history is: MM nerf. MM was changed back 4 major patches later, so that's a long time. (7.1 to 7.5). Then it got shafted by physics. Then it got rebalanced in 8.2 with those changes. 

it never caught a break until after 8.2... until power creep. 

 

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It's all good hazz, that other thread did get a bit difficult to follow after gezuntheit went off on his 'I am 100% right' crusade of being wrong. In truth we'd need the hidden stats throughout the period which certainly weren't around at the time and I haven't seen since.

The other nerfs were more meta level stuff that impacted the game in general including the 59. Eg by losing out on seeing tier 5s it meant it saw more similar tiers and hence less stuff to bully. Further the general power creep of pen in the game, coupled with the availability of credit prem ammo partially nullified one of its standout attributes.

Either way, as noted above, using it as a baseline for comparison of being op in its current state would be rather misguided - especially given the extra data we have on the new perms.

As to this new pancake, for mine it may be a tad better than some tree tanks, but it won't be as broken as the others owing to it having a higher skill requirement. Ie tomatoes won't do anywhere near as well as they do in the armored prems.

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8 minutes ago, Ezz said:

It's all good hazz, that other thread did get a bit difficult to follow after gezuntheit went off on his 'I am 100% right' crusade of being wrong. In truth we'd need the hidden stats throughout the period which certainly weren't around at the time and I haven't seen since.

The other nerfs were more meta level stuff that impacted the game in general including the 59. Eg by losing out on seeing tier 5s it meant it saw more similar tiers and hence less stuff to bully. Further the general power creep of pen in the game, coupled with the availability of credit prem ammo partially nullified one of its standout attributes.

Either way, as noted above, using it as a baseline for comparison of being op in its current state would be rather misguided - especially given the extra data we have on the new perms.

As to this new pancake, for mine it may be a tad better than some tree tanks, but it won't be as broken as the others owing to it having a higher skill requirement. Ie tomatoes won't do anywhere near as well as they do in the armored prems.

On meta level I agree. I also agree it's not op. Especially since with new MM pref MM tanks got shafted. Don't know why but rarely I have games (I'm yet to have such a game) where I'm one of the 3 top triers.

Though it's still better than most t8 meds even if it makes me want to throw out my keyboard. 

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Moreover I should stress that while the 59 may make a poor comparison, i shudder at the thought of WG using logic like 'but it's not as op as the defender, so all good'.

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10 hours ago, Ezz said:

Moreover I should stress that while the 59 may make a poor comparison, i shudder at the thought of WG using logic like 'but it's not as op as the defender, so all good'.

They seem to be a bit scared about all that Foch stuff so now they will simply release stronger than regular tank premiums but not broken premiums ;)

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11 hours ago, hazzgar said:

On meta level I agree. I also agree it's not op. Especially since with new MM pref MM tanks got shafted. Don't know why but rarely I have games (I'm yet to have such a game) where I'm one of the 3 top triers.

Though it's still better than most t8 meds even if it makes me want to throw out my keyboard. 

IMO pref MM still retains a distinct advantage especially when half your games in your T8 are in Tier 10 if not more.

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1 hour ago, lavawing said:

IMO pref MM still retains a distinct advantage especially when half your games in your T8 are in Tier 10 if not more.

They aren't really in t10 when you only meet 3 t10s' and half of the team is tanks from your trier. 

 

Also I didn't argue pref MM being advantageous. I only argue it is LESS advantageous than before for 2 reasons.

1. The advantage in good mm vs other tanks is lower since now you can't be the only bottom trier tank

2. You get much less games when you are top trier. Though this may be confirmation bias on my part. 

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On 03/06/2017 at 7:33 PM, GehakteMolen said:

Whilt the sentiment is right, its not entirely fair though, it contains a lot of double tanks (all tanks with special camo are listed twice for example, including tanks you cant even buy (Wz-111 alpine tiger, Type 59 G, ``nameless``, its something along the lines of:

  • 37 normal tanks
  • 34 prems
  • 27 ``special tanks`` (we have 3 versions of the fucking Mutz and T-44-100 for example))

ps: in games its however not 50-50, but more like:

 

And still no generally available light tank premiums unless you're China. Sub T6 doesn't count.

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Turret armor buffed by 10mm (120mm), cupolas too.

should reach 175 effective now. Too bad there aren't many tanks with such shit pen

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On 06/06/2017 at 11:18 AM, lavawing said:

IMO pref MM still retains a distinct advantage especially when half your games in your T8 are in Tier 10 if not more.

Good luck playing any pref MM tank in the current tier 8 lineups. Tier 8 even just some months before was the most fun and balanced tier. Now you either have one of the new meta prems or you're done before pressing battle. Any pref Mm tank vs t-25s, Patriots, defenders, libertards, 252Us, scorpions (and the tons I forget) feels like a tier 7 at max. Hell even normal mm tanks are fucked. 

I was playing is5 the other day and I came face to face with a defender. Guy was an idiot, game me lfp at a perfect angle... Bounce. Then proceeds to sidescrape over angling. I load gold and I hit his overangling shoulder perfect on... Bounce. He reloads as fast as me and shoots 440. What the hell am I supposed to do? Imagine being in an is6, wx111, kv5... Lulz.

I'm sorry for rant but most of my games are on tier 8 I really enjoyed and now it's completely broken. I never ever felt so powerless versus tanks in the same tier as me. Some are tolerable, but defenders and patrios are just retarded. 

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7 hours ago, kariverson said:

Good luck playing any pref MM tank in the current tier 8 lineups. Tier 8 even just some months before was the most fun and balanced tier. Now you either have one of the new meta prems or you're done before pressing battle. Any pref Mm tank vs t-25s, Patriots, defenders, libertards, 252Us, scorpions (and the tons I forget) feels like a tier 7 at max. Hell even normal mm tanks are fucked. 

I was playing is5 the other day and I came face to face with a defender. Guy was an idiot, game me lfp at a perfect angle... Bounce. Then proceeds to sidescrape over angling. I load gold and I hit his overangling shoulder perfect on... Bounce. He reloads as fast as me and shoots 440. What the hell am I supposed to do? Imagine being in an is6, wx111, kv5... Lulz.

I'm sorry for rant but most of my games are on tier 8 I really enjoyed and now it's completely broken. I never ever felt so powerless versus tanks in the same tier as me. Some are tolerable, but defenders and patrios are just retarded. 

True, the pref MM tanks are worthless against the powercreep 8s, but IMO that's less a problem with pref 8 mm than it is with the lack of pen and general shittiness of the pref 8s. If the pref 8s received actual penetration and non-retarded soft stats, they'd be pretty competitive, without having to meet tier 10s ever.That is why what I consider to be the simplest solution is to buff the pen of all Pref 8s to anywhere between 190 and 220, as well as a bloom buff which would make them less frustrating to play. Knowing WG, they'd probably give the IS-6 200 AP pen and 270 HEAT.

Now, the solution that would be the best for the game would of course be very different: probably a global armour nerf would be called for, so tanks would have actual frontal weak weakspots, +-1 MM and less corridory maps. (arty removal is a given: NO COMPENSATION) but none of that is ever going to happen, now is it?

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On 03/06/2017 at 1:11 AM, leggasiini said:

https://thearmoredpatrol.com/2017/06/02/supertest-stg/

 

hpMgKnZtO44.jpg

Tier: MT-8, USSR, premium
HP: 1350
Engine: 500 hp
Mass: 28 t
Maximum load: 30 t
Power-to-weight: 17,86 hp / t
Max speed/Min speed: 50 / -20 km / h
Hull turning speed: 45 °/s
Turret turning speed: 36,5 °/s
Terrain resistance values: 0,671 / 0,767 / 1,534
View range: 370 m
Radio range: 730 m

Hull armor: 100 / 45 / 45 mm
Turret armor: 110 / 75 / 45 mm

Gun: 122 mm D-25

Alpha Damage: 390 / 390 / 530
Penetration: 212 / 248 / 61 mm
Rounds per minute: 4,469
Damage per minute: 1743,1
Reload time: 13,425 s
Accuracy at 100 m: 0,316
Aiming time: 2,21 s
Depression: -6

 

---------

Doesnt seem that bad though tbh, its essentially Obj 416 with shit DPM and poor gold ammo but 390 alpha and -6 depression. I mean, i dont think we need more prems (ESPECIALLY russian) but hey. Looks like WG actually is about to realize the situation with premiums and actually tries to make balanced ones. See this, and the French TD leaked 1,5 weeks ago.

 

Sorry, too weak for WG comrade! New stats

 

  • Tier: 8
  • HP: 1,350
  • Engine Power: 400hp
  • Weight: 28t
  • Power to Weight: 14.29
  • Speed: +50/-20 kph
  • Hull Traverse: 45 deg/sec
  • Turret Traverse: 36.5 deg/sec
  • Terrain Resistances: .671/.767/1.534
  • Hull Armor: 100/45/45mm
  • Turret Armor: 210/180/45mm
  • View Range: 370m
  • Signal Range: 730m

 

  • Gun: 122mm D-25TS
  • Damage: 390/390/530
  • Penetration: 212/248/61mm
  • DPM: 1743.1
  • Rate of Fire: 4.469
  • Reload: 13.425 sec
  • Accuracy: 0.316
  • Aim Time: 2.21 sec
  • Depression: -6 degrees

camo stats will probably be similar to Object 416

 

Base

24.19 Stationary

14.55 Moving

 

Camo/BIA/Paint

48.79 Stationary

30.94 Moving

 

If you like the Object 416, then sell it and buy the good cash shop version.

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So they gave it more turret armor (still retains big cupola and big part of turret front is 200-220 effective, much bigger than 140 and such) but it lost over 3hp/t. Didn't notice any other changes. Hardly a significant buff, if buff at all. 

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1 hour ago, Marty said:

So they gave it more turret armor (still retains big cupola and big part of turret front is 200-220 effective, much bigger than 140 and such) but it lost over 3hp/t. Didn't notice any other changes. Hardly a significant buff, if buff at all. 

It's a buff alright. Now its turret will reliably bounce same tier silver forcing you to spam APCR at a Tier 8 medium.

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So, are we are now at a point where we think a russian turret front should be a weakspot?  

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7 hours ago, 21Blackjack said:

If you like the Object 416, then sell it and buy the good cash shop version.

I don't see the STG melting tier 10s away with 2500+ base DPM and 330 HEAT. 

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Sorry but no. I like the non shit standard pen but 14hp/t on a medium? I'd rather get a Patriot

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17 hours ago, DHP said:

14hp/t. This ain't gonna move very fast.

 

16 hours ago, hazzgar said:

Sorry but no. I like the non shit standard pen but 14hp/t on a medium? I'd rather get a Patriot

 

horsepower doesn't mean anything on Russian tanks, I thought you knew that.

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I like the way that according to tanks.gg its 390 alpha 212 pen shell costs about a third less than the 416's 320 alpha 201 pen shell.

And fwiw, slightly less mobile than a 416 is not exactly a slug.

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1 hour ago, 21Blackjack said:

 

 

horsepower doesn't mean anything on Russian tanks, I thought you knew that.

Exactly. The T-44-100 has like 15 HP/t and still zooms around the battlefield like a light tank.

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