leggasiini

Supertest: Japanese heavy changes (9.20, not 9.19.1)

125 posts in this topic

http://forum.worldoftanks.eu/index.php?/topic/633648-920-supertest-of-rebalanced-vehicles/page__pid__14441243#entry14441243

 

  • O-I Exp loses 10cm gun, gets mobility nerf but gains armor buffs.
  • O-I gets rear armor nerf
  • O-Ho gets 250 - 260 mm pen gold ammo for 10 cm, tho with the current MM the derp should be still no doubt better gun
  • Type 4 and Type 5 gets mobility changes (not sure how, it isnt specified but probably buffs), and the driver hatches in front become "weakspots". No changes for derp guns in sight, but we will see.

 

Armor changes:

 

O-I Exp:

 

76jK-sI39ho.jpg

 

O-I's ass armor:

 

FGAGdvGbny0.jpg

 

Type 4:

 

DSlpCgZxJ-c.jpg

 

Type 5:

 

XBiZQ4CMcS0.jpg

 

Will update the topic if we get more specific changes.

 

--------------------------

 

My thoughts:

 

I wouldnt call those proper "weakspots" on Type 5 as you will still need gold more or less but its better than nothing. Also if they dont buff 14cm and/or fix (remove) the derp gun on Type 4/5 im kinda pissed, but hey, WG is actually trying to fix their game by giving tanks fucking weakspots, what the fuck is this, 2013?. Did Murazor get fired?

 

Just when I quit WG announces stuff that actually seems promising. Brilliant.

 

 

 

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WG´s idea of a "weakspot" is interesting, all it will change is that it is easier to penetrate the angled UFP with gold...

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At least they are trying and doing it sooner rather than later.  Softening up da O-I ass will make fast boys more tolerable anyway.

 

P.S. I finished the Tier 6 some time ago but didn't go further since the tier 10 looked meh.  Would you skip the 7, 8 or 9? Which one(s)? Why? Thanks. 

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4 minutes ago, Hellsfog said:

At least they are trying and doing it sooner rather than later.  Softening up da O-I ass will make fast boys more tolerable anyway.

 

P.S. I finished the Tier 6 some time ago but didn't go further since the tier 10 looked meh.  Would you skip the 7, 8 or 9? Which one(s)? Why? Thanks. 

tier 7 is basically a more fun and mobile version of its tier 6 counterpart

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13 minutes ago, Hellsfog said:

P.S. I finished the Tier 6 some time ago but didn't go further since the tier 10 looked meh.  Would you skip the 7, 8 or 9? Which one(s)? Why? Thanks. 

You mean pre-buff, because tier 10 is now probably the 2nd strongest tank in the line (O-I Exp is still more broken though it is not even close as brainless to play and it did get hurt a bit for no longer meeting tier 3s which were hilarous to rape, tho tier 4 gets similar fate anyways so whatever), i assume?

- tier 7 is alright

- tier 8 is keks, but tier 8 mm is aids

- tier 9 is cancer to play so if i chose one to skip its this, also the grind is stupidly long

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Because making the lfp and the cupola 220 was a bad idea right? They have a tank called is4 which works by overangling the armor. Make this tank work in the same way. 

Also this is not a weakspot at all 270-80 mm still requires gold since most non td tanks have lower standard pen than that and not many tds have much more pen. Guns like the BL-10 have 286. Only some tier X tds have more pen than that on standard.

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32 minutes ago, nabucodonsor said:

Because making the lfp and the cupola 220 was a bad idea right? They have a tank called is4 which works by overangling the armor. Make this tank work in the same way. 

Also this is not a weakspot at all 270-80 mm still requires gold since most non td tanks have lower standard pen than that and not many tds have much more pen. Guns like the BL-10 have 286. Only some tier X tds have more pen than that on standard.

220 cupola armor would rape the tank, though. Huge cupola shouldnt be a weakspot for such a massive and slow tank that wouldnt even wiggle properly.

LFP weakspot that is comparable to E100 expect maybe marginally stronger would have been fine, though.

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12 minutes ago, leggasiini said:

220 cupola armor would rape the tank, though. Huge cupola shouldnt be a weakspot for such a massive and slow tank that wouldnt even wiggle properly.

LFP weakspot that is comparable to E100 expect maybe marginally stronger would have been fine, though.

Make it smaller like the E100 police bar, just a bit bigger than jadgzilla . Make the side hull cheeks strong against 330 heat even when flat to let it angle, remove the derp shit, buff a bit the older gun, remove shit side antiheat skirts. Just like the is4 it would have a weakspot on the turret and one on the front hull.Tank balanced, done. 

PS: sorry for being a bit aggressive but i had a really bad day after months of bad days so yeah.

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1 hour ago, nabucodonsor said:

Because making the lfp and the cupola 220 was a bad idea right? They have a tank called is4 which works by overangling the armor. Make this tank work in the same way. 

Also this is not a weakspot at all 270-80 mm still requires gold since most non td tanks have lower standard pen than that and not many tds have much more pen. Guns like the BL-10 have 286. Only some tier X tds have more pen than that on standard.

except the is4 has the notorious turret roof weakness. Type 4/5's cupola still need to be less bullshit to pen.

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6 hours ago, leggasiini said:

 

Just when I quit WG announces stuff that actually seems promising. Brilliant.

This what we all thought when WG said they'd finally nerf the E5 and change arty. Look how that has worked out...

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-No Nameless changes

 

 

Go get fucked WG. 

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Weakspots which still can only can penned by Hightier TD guns. :jebaited:

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Those spots need changing to like 220 on the Type 4 and like 230 on the Type 5, so they are proper weakspots.

260 is not a weakspot, the E5 cupola@ 260 wasn't allowed and that had a LFP that was an actual weakspot.  260 to 230 and that is better.

Also the derp guns just need to go.

At least they finally worked out that having 300 alpha on a tier 5 heavy was stupid. But take the derps away and these tanks instantly become less annoying to fight against, O-I is OP because it's a super armoured turreted TD, the KV-2 is already extremely good and that has no armour, so it was obvious that an armoured KV-2 with view range was going to be OP.

 

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I don't think the Type 4's armour needs nerfing. It's already pretty weak because the shoulders and turret are easy pens for a lot of guns in the same tier or lower. The armour basically only works if you can overangle the front while hiding the shoulder and not giving a shot at your tracks to bait shots. But that said, 240 on that hatch when dead on probably doesn't matter, if you can pen that you can probably pen the lower plate straight on.

Type 5 though...needs to nerf it a bit more given the shoulder's aren't weakspots and the turret is much tougher. Putting the hatches at 240-250 range would make them capable of being penned straight on by high tier meds/heavies with good accuracy/luck while still making it secure against lower tiers.

I disagree that the derps need to go, at least it makes the tanks unique. The issue is the gold ammo, which is just so much better it's not funny. If the derps are firing only standard HE, doing about 300-400 damage on average compared to 500-600 damage on average, the tanks are nowhere near as powerful given the long reload.

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The problem with Jap heavies is how WG decided to balance them.

The O-Ni and O-Ho never existed (note: they are not WG fakes however, they have bit complicated history), and Type 4/5 armor were also purely created by WG, leaving the O-I only tank in the line (lowtier non superheavies doesnt count in this case) with historical/semi-historical armor. The problem is the armor design:

O-I_armor_plating.png

WG went in, took this, and used it as basis for all Jap heavies, assuming they are all related to the O-I (which they probably are, Type 4/5 might be reworked version of O-I). This obviously causes problems.

Another problem is guns. Derps are bad for game, but you cant just remove them; you need to do something for other guns. Tier 6-10 derps are the best guns on the entire line, with tier 8-10 having basically only 1 viable gun and that is the derp gun. Especially the O-Ho would become so terrible that Tiger II and Caernarvon would look good if derp gets removed, as that gun is the strongest point of the tank (its armor is good but worse than most jap heavies, is pennable by most same tier heavy AP way more reliably unlike lets say Type 5). Even with 10cm that has gold O-Ho would be still probably worst tier 8 heavy, as even with gold the 10cm would be just "bad" instead of floor trash like it is now, on overall pretty shitty platform.

I did write rework proposal on TAP few weeks ago, this is TL;DR version of it:

- downtier lowtiers

- uptier O-I to tier 7 and buff it (HP, new gun option, mobility etc, basically O-Ni with worse armor but better guns)

- add new tanks to midtiers (there are candidates, we just dont know really anything about them YET, some of them are just improved versions of type 95s while atleast one of them is apparently a 30-50 tonne heavy that would fit to tier 5)

- rework O-Ni and make it premium tank

- give O-Ho 127mm gun with poor DPM but good pen and alpha, also give it less depression problems than derp gun, give gold for 10cm and buff gun handling

- remove derps on type 4/5

- buff 14cm pen to 259/302, buff DPM and accuracy slightly

- rework armor layout so that they have weakspots but non weakspot areas are stronger, nerf side armor on type 5

- Alternatively make armor worse but make 14cm guns even stronger, basically something like between a HT and TD guns, making the tanks like huge T30s that are slower and has worse turret but better DPM, gun handling, stupidly high HP and better hull armor.

20 minutes ago, Balthazars said:

 

I disagree that the derps need to go, at least it makes the tanks unique. The issue is the gold ammo, which is just so much better it's not funny. If the derps are firing only standard HE, doing about 300-400 damage on average compared to 500-600 damage on average, the tanks are nowhere near as powerful given the long reload.

The 14cm guns would be potentially unique, you just need to adjust them (overall buffs).

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Been away for a year and havn't needed to care about T10 heavies since I came back a few weeks ago. I just looked the Type 5 up on tanks.gg

Who the fuck thought giving the HE-100 a 50% alpha buff was clever? Turns out buffing a meme by 50% makes it full stupid.

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Type 5 Heavy, tier X
– decreased turret rotation speed from 20,9 to 18,8°/s
– decreased hull rotation speed from 22 to 17°/s
– decreased turret rotation dispersion from 4,22 to 3,8
– decreased hull rotation dispersion from 4,22 to 3,26

– weakened frontal armor

 

Please dont tell me the bolded parts are what I think they are... (gun handling buff).

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1 hour ago, DracoArgentum said:

Been away for a year and havn't needed to care about T10 heavies since I came back a few weeks ago. I just looked the Type 5 up on tanks.gg

Who the fuck thought giving the HE-100 a 50% alpha buff was clever? Turns out buffing a meme by 50% makes it full stupid.

People still use Mauses over Type 5s in organized plays. As long as the Maus remains as it is, any nerf to Type 5 is pointless, if not stupid.

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1 hour ago, Swoopie said:

Type 5 Heavy, tier X
– decreased turret rotation speed from 20,9 to 18,8°/s
– decreased hull rotation speed from 22 to 17°/s
– decreased turret rotation dispersion from 4,22 to 3,8
– decreased hull rotation dispersion from 4,22 to 3,26

– weakened frontal armor

 

Please dont tell me the bolded parts are what I think they are... (gun handling buff).

For a moment I thought that, too. However, I got told that the max bloom is buffed at same time as the traverse speed gets nerfed. Slower traverse = better effective bloom.

They have never listed that stat before, though, so it indeed caused alot of confusion.

Im still surprised how they didnt announce any changes to derp gun or 14cm (nerf for former, buff for latter).

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1 hour ago, Swoopie said:

Type 5 Heavy, tier X
– decreased turret rotation speed from 20,9 to 18,8°/s
– decreased hull rotation speed from 22 to 17°/s
– decreased turret rotation dispersion from 4,22 to 3,8
– decreased hull rotation dispersion from 4,22 to 3,26

– weakened frontal armor

 

Please dont tell me the bolded parts are what I think they are... (gun handling buff).

edit: nvm

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Getting rid of the extra damage on gold HE and type 5 would immediately be better balanced. Premium ammo that does +150 dmg per shot with zero drawbacks beside credit cost is just poor balancing. At least hesh on the fv183 is not a 100% superior ammo in all situations.

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23 hours ago, Balthazars said:

I disagree that the derps need to go, at least it makes the tanks unique. The issue is the gold ammo, which is just so much better it's not funny. If the derps are firing only standard HE, doing about 300-400 damage on average compared to 500-600 damage on average, the tanks are nowhere near as powerful given the long reload.

IMO derp guns on heavies that brawl completely defeats the whole point of heavy v heavy combat. 

One player is angling, using his armour correctly, aiming for weakspots etc, then the other guy just snap shots with a derp and does 400 damage, completely negating skill in the engagement. I've had Type 4s and 5s with standard HE still do 400 plus onto like my IS7 turret. The premium HE is just more stupidity on an already stupid concept. 

That is the problem with the Jap heavies, they completely negate all brawling/heavy tank skills, sit front on, no angling needed and no need to aim, know weakspots, know overmatch pen etc. 

HE just ignores armour, it's why derp guns are stupid IMO just like arty. 

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9 hours ago, tajj7 said:

IMO derp guns on heavies that brawl completely defeats the whole point of heavy v heavy combat. 

One player is angling, using his armour correctly, aiming for weakspots etc, then the other guy just snap shots with a derp and does 400 damage, completely negating skill in the engagement. I've had Type 4s and 5s with standard HE still do 400 plus onto like my IS7 turret. The premium HE is just more stupidity on an already stupid concept. 

That is the problem with the Jap heavies, they completely negate all brawling/heavy tank skills, sit front on, no angling needed and no need to aim, know weakspots, know overmatch pen etc. 

HE just ignores armour, it's why derp guns are stupid IMO just like arty. 

If you snapshot with a Type 5, you won't hit much, and even aimed in, you have a "good" chance to simply miss a hulldown tank, thanks to your lousy dispersion (for that matter, you can completely miss entire tanks at close range).

Also, HE does not ignore armor; you -do- need to aim to maximize damage, because otherwise you can't possibly out trade enemy heavies. For example, the E3 is the hardest tank I've seen to damage with Type 5 HE. Pretty much any frontal hit will be less than 100 damage (even with premium ammo). On the cupola, however, I can get solid 500+ hits.

(It's also fun to aim in on a 50B and -pen- it.)

Oh, and angling/weakspots are all mere tactical skills, as far as I'm concerned, mostly requiring rote memorization (very like map knowledge). Positional skill is the real skill, as far as I'm concerned (very like the contrast between tactical and positional in chess; tactical is easy, though visually impressive; positional is hard).

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