leggasiini

Supertest: Japanese heavy changes (9.20, not 9.19.1)

125 posts in this topic

Reminds me of the good old days on the official forum where people were trying to argue that the KV at tier 5 (back when it was effectively the KV-2) was perfectly fair and balanced because derpy gun and long reload or something.

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22 hours ago, hazzgar said:

1. Not broken as in has the same problems as arty :D As if multiple tanks on the corner are not your scenario - it's not a random event but a skill. You talk about situational awareness like you are a pro at it yet apparently you go to flanks where you have no support. Also the heavy area at redshite heavily benefits the type because if the enemy sidescrapes at you - you shoot him before he can shoot you. The derp canon allows you to shoot enemy tanks before they can get their gun on you. This is A GIGANTIC advantage. Not to mention your exposure is still smaller since you have to hit the whole tank vs hitting the flat part of an unangled Maus turret face (or anywhere on other tanks).

 

That highlights one of the more complicated issues that muddies the waters for your scenario: corner traffic control. :P If you have multiple tanks on a corner, and one of them is sidescraping, it messes the others up for poking.

Also, if a tank is "eating" the corner (I'm not sure how else to describe a tank that hogs it and won't back up to give teammates shots), you have to pull out farther than you would ordinarily to take a shot, and probably take more incoming fire.

So, assuming good traffic control, where everyone is letting the other tanks take the safest shots possible, you probably won't see sidescraping. That reduces the likelihood that the Type will be able to take a free shot (which is indeed a huge advantage when you can do it). On the other hand, any tank can get free shots if the reds simply shoot at someone else poking with you, or if you poke after they've all fired, which tends to dilute any advantage the Type has in that regard.

Another issue is that if the Type is indeed getting free shots every time, it means the other tanks poking with it are taking all the fire. A good Type driver will share hit points.

I'll add that when poking, the Type either snapshots with a lot of bloom, or it has to sit there to aim in, which exposes its turret cheeks. (Also, the big turret is something of a disadvantage, occasionally allowing you to get hit for free over ridgelines.)

Without question, "poking cadence" is an important skill for a Type in a multi-tank 1-corner scenario, but I don't see that it has a huge free-shot advantage in that situation. Generally if I'm getting free shots at a sidescraper, it's in a 1v1 line of fire, 2-corner scenario.

In all fairness, a probable bigger advantage in your scenario is focus fire: the Type is very good at finishing off low-health tanks. It can push out a bit farther, take a hit, and be almost guaranteed to finish a tank.

By the way, I've been speaking hypothetically/clinically; I'm not sure why you assume it means I only try to play to the scenario I was describing. :P

19 hours ago, Ezz said:

Which kinda highlights some of the issues with this super heavy sub class to begin with.

The line between balance and making a tank attractive enough to grind is part of the mess. Tanks were overlooked for the meta not because they were particularly bad, just that they weren't fun. Then someone managed to convince WG that unfun was because they weren't competitive enough, and voila, demonstrably over buffed broken shit.

Mobility is so important that making super slow tanks worth playing means they have to be OP in close quarters, which I suspect means that they -will- unbalance pubs, since it's not likely that players there will know how to handle them.

I suspect there isn't a middle ground. Either the Maus and Type 5 will be OP in pubs, or they won't be worth playing.

18 hours ago, CardinalMite said:

This is just surreal.... you are driving a derp wagon and you say you dont like armour management skills because you hate RNG????

So its just a tier 10 KV2 eh? Lets review that. For its tier the KV2 gets a great derp gun and pays for it in mobility, health pool, armour, a 3 second longer reload, mediocre gun depression. The Type 5 pays for its gun with only mobility and the reload is actually not that long considering it has guaranteed damage.

And as for us talking about pubs this thread started about the rebalancing of the Type 5 it did not specify we were only allowed to talk about ranked balance but since its stats are always going to be the same for both modes and since most people play pubs most of the time then frankly even if that disadvantaged RB play (unproven by you) then frankly I just don't care.

Not sure about this... vs Maus and Type 5 the e100 seems to take a lot more work to play effectively, preserve the health pool and is riddled with weak spots in comparison. Also you seem to have to pretty much premium spam or go home. To be fair I only just got the e100 so maybe I just haven't figured it out yet but even when others play it they seem to come off second best vs the other 2 superheavies.

E100 is a super heavy I believe..

Yes Type 5 should be roughly equivalent level to Maus but since that is also currently OP that is not an argument for keeping the Type where it is, it just means that both need rebalancing.

Armor management is simply rote memorization, and in a practical sense, it's RNG manipulation. Perhaps I'm being unfair, but I see it in much the same vein as dancing or bunny-hopping to make yourself harder to hit in FPS games.

The Type 5 can bypass some of that RNG manipulation (depending on distance), which is one reason I like it.

To be honest, however, the reason I kept coming back to the Maus and Type 5 in ranked (after trying the E5, 140, and bat) is arty. With a spall liner, the supers can actually tank arty, and I grew quickly tired of getting wrecked by arty in the other tanks whenever I tried to do anything aggressive.

14 hours ago, MagicalFlyingFox said:

Yeah. You're nowhere near qualified enough to judge map control or who is going to win. On Himmelsderp for example, all the mediums against the superheavies are going to run away while a few of the superheavies sit on cap and win the game since everyone is too fucking scared to get shot. Or the mediums will end up running into superheavies because the other team will be falling back to get you into the firing lines of the superheavies, where you can kiss your ass goodbye. One of these two situations will occur 90% of the time. The only maps you'll stand a chance are Malinovka and Prok. 

 

 

besides, ranked battles means nothing. Pub battles is what everything is balanced for and should be since that is where all players will be playing their battles a majority of the time. 

Those are your qualification rules, not mine. :) And you don't have write privileges to my observations or opinions, so permission denied. :P

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"Type5 isn't bullshit"

"I play it because it ignores armor skills"

you just keep repeating yourself. It's painful

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4 hours ago, Roccandil said:

That highlights one of the more complicated issues that muddies the waters for your scenario: corner traffic control. :P If you have multiple tanks on a corner, and one of them is sidescraping, it messes the others up for poking.

Also, if a tank is "eating" the corner (I'm not sure how else to describe a tank that hogs it and won't back up to give teammates shots), you have to pull out farther than you would ordinarily to take a shot, and probably take more incoming fire.

So, assuming good traffic control, where everyone is letting the other tanks take the safest shots possible, you probably won't see sidescraping. That reduces the likelihood that the Type will be able to take a free shot (which is indeed a huge advantage when you can do it). On the other hand, any tank can get free shots if the reds simply shoot at someone else poking with you, or if you poke after they've all fired, which tends to dilute any advantage the Type has in that regard.

Another issue is that if the Type is indeed getting free shots every time, it means the other tanks poking with it are taking all the fire. A good Type driver will share hit points.

I'll add that when poking, the Type either snapshots with a lot of bloom, or it has to sit there to aim in, which exposes its turret cheeks. (Also, the big turret is something of a disadvantage, occasionally allowing you to get hit for free over ridgelines.)

Without question, "poking cadence" is an important skill for a Type in a multi-tank 1-corner scenario, but I don't see that it has a huge free-shot advantage in that situation. Generally if I'm getting free shots at a sidescraper, it's in a 1v1 line of fire, 2-corner scenario.

In all fairness, a probable bigger advantage in your scenario is focus fire: the Type is very good at finishing off low-health tanks. It can push out a bit farther, take a hit, and be almost guaranteed to finish a tank.

By the way, I've been speaking hypothetically/clinically; I'm not sure why you assume it means I only try to play to the scenario I was describing. :P

Mobility is so important that making super slow tanks worth playing means they have to be OP in close quarters, which I suspect means that they -will- unbalance pubs, since it's not likely that players there will know how to handle them.

I suspect there isn't a middle ground. Either the Maus and Type 5 will be OP in pubs, or they won't be worth playing.

Armor management is simply rote memorization, and in a practical sense, it's RNG manipulation. Perhaps I'm being unfair, but I see it in much the same vein as dancing or bunny-hopping to make yourself harder to hit in FPS games.

The Type 5 can bypass some of that RNG manipulation (depending on distance), which is one reason I like it.

To be honest, however, the reason I kept coming back to the Maus and Type 5 in ranked (after trying the E5, 140, and bat) is arty. With a spall liner, the supers can actually tank arty, and I grew quickly tired of getting wrecked by arty in the other tanks whenever I tried to do anything aggressive.

Those are your qualification rules, not mine. :) And you don't have write privileges to my observations or opinions, so permission denied. :P

Ok 1. Saying because 1 tank sidescrapes means others on the corner cant also is flat out wrong. All you have to do is sidescrape off the sidescraping tank gives you much the same protection as being closest to the corner. The fact you dont know that is telling.

2. For sure you are speaking hypothetically.

3. The fact you think armour management is just rote learning is also telling... shot baiting, understanding and utilising overmatch mechanics being just a couple of examples that require some actual skill to use.

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8 hours ago, Roccandil said:

Those are your qualification rules, not mine. :) And you don't have write privileges to my observations or opinions, so permission denied. :P

Considering you're not bothering to address the rest of the post, no you are not qualified no matter what you think. Of course that's not the only reason you're not qualified. You barely play tier 10s and you're shit at them anyway. 

8 hours ago, Roccandil said:

To be honest, however, the reason I kept coming back to the Maus and Type 5 in ranked (after trying the E5, 140, and bat) is arty. With a spall liner, the supers can actually tank arty, and I grew quickly tired of getting wrecked by arty in the other tanks whenever I tried to do anything aggressive.

Lets rephrase.

 

"I'm tired of playing other tanks because I'm shit and can't deal with the constant arty bombardment so instead I decide to play the broken land arty and brick wall because it takes less skill and the only decision i need to make is where to go"

 

8 hours ago, Roccandil said:

I suspect there isn't a middle ground. Either the Maus and Type 5 will be OP in pubs, or they won't be worth playing.

Its not like the Maus was not worth playing beforehand. All they needed to do was buff the turret front a bit but then they went overboard and fucked the damn thing up.

8 hours ago, Roccandil said:

The Type 5 can bypass some of that RNG manipulation (depending on distance), which is one reason I like it.

"The type 5 means all i need to do is aim at a tank and not at their weakspots. Aiming is hard, fuck that shit. What is this skill?"

 

8 hours ago, Roccandil said:

That highlights one of the more complicated issues that muddies the waters for your scenario: corner traffic control. :P If you have multiple tanks on a corner, and one of them is sidescraping, it messes the others up for poking.

This entire quote is garbage.

You expose yourself at an autobounce angle with only your turret pennable. They begin to peek, you shoot and turn your turret before they get their gun on you. 

All this talk about your Type 5 and you still can't fucking peek properly. 

Delusions of adequacy. 

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Noting also that there's a difference between 'worth playing because competitive' and 'worth playing because fun'.

The maus for the most part wasn't being played because it was slow as buggery. Now it's slow as buggery but gets to face stomp everyone. It seems WG's solution to boring tanks is to make them broken so if you do happen to be on a map with a corridor or choke point (sooooooooooooo rare...) then you get to giggle as you slowly drive over the top of anyone with marginally more mobility than you.

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15 hours ago, CardinalMite said:

Ok 1. Saying because 1 tank sidescrapes means others on the corner cant also is flat out wrong. All you have to do is sidescrape off the sidescraping tank gives you much the same protection as being closest to the corner. The fact you dont know that is telling.

2. For sure you are speaking hypothetically.

3. The fact you think armour management is just rote learning is also telling... shot baiting, understanding and utilising overmatch mechanics being just a couple of examples that require some actual skill to use.

Sure, multiple tanks can sidescrape off each other, but at least in the ranked maps, that was a very unusual situation to run into (and I can't remember seeing it). And, of course, it's not possible on every heavy corner.

At least in my experience, baiting is like bunny-hopping. :P Overmatch is more memorization of armor schemes. (And WG really ought to make that easier to see, and not rely on third-party sites.)

 

12 hours ago, MagicalFlyingFox said:

Considering you're not bothering to address the rest of the post, no you are not qualified no matter what you think. Of course that's not the only reason you're not qualified. You barely play tier 10s and you're shit at them anyway. 

Lets rephrase.

 

"I'm tired of playing other tanks because I'm shit and can't deal with the constant arty bombardment so instead I decide to play the broken land arty and brick wall because it takes less skill and the only decision i need to make is where to go"

 

Its not like the Maus was not worth playing beforehand. All they needed to do was buff the turret front a bit but then they went overboard and fucked the damn thing up.

"The type 5 means all i need to do is aim at a tank and not at their weakspots. Aiming is hard, fuck that shit. What is this skill?"

 

This entire quote is garbage.

You expose yourself at an autobounce angle with only your turret pennable. They begin to peek, you shoot and turn your turret before they get their gun on you. 

All this talk about your Type 5 and you still can't fucking peek properly. 

Delusions of adequacy. 

Either you believe in reasonable discussion or you don't. Clearly you don't. :P

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7 hours ago, Roccandil said:

Sure, multiple tanks can sidescrape off each other, but at least in the ranked maps, that was a very unusual situation to run into (and I can't remember seeing it). And, of course, it's not possible on every heavy corner.

I think there are a lot of things you choose not to see, fact is you made an absolute statement which was patently incorrect and you keep citing ranked battles like it is the ultimate definitive arbiter of how the tank should be balanced when we have already established that it is not, RB is flawed and does not reward game winning skills just damage farming ones. It seems your only interest is playing RB which the NA player base should be grateful for as you will only be found in a temporary game mode.. frankly I see people sidescraping off team mates all the time with varying levels of success largely dependent on the skill of the players involved and only on the narrowest of paths is it not viable.

7 hours ago, Roccandil said:

At least in my experience, baiting is like bunny-hopping. :P Overmatch is more memorization of armor schemes.

Again you just repeat the same arguments that have already been shot down and all they consist of is a statement of your opinion with no reference to any supporting evidence and in ways that demonstrate you only have a superficial understanding of the game mechanics.  The overmatch mechanics aren't just a means to lolpen an enemy tank, the knowledge of these (by the way since when was the ability to learn and remember worthy of such derision by you? Perhaps try learning some time.) allows the defender to know when and how to push/poke and exactly how best to use cover depending on the caliber of gun they are up against and observation of the enemy player to see if they have awareness of and utilise the overmatch characteristics of their guns..

This is my last post on this debate with you, clearly you cannot see the flaws in your thinking and are simply happy to continue using your broken tank. You havent made any cogent argument to justify the current characteristics of this tank.

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6 hours ago, CardinalMite said:

I think there are a lot of things you choose not to see, fact is you made an absolute statement which was patently incorrect and you keep citing ranked battles like it is the ultimate definitive arbiter of how the tank should be balanced when we have already established that it is not, RB is flawed and does not reward game winning skills just damage farming ones. It seems your only interest is playing RB which the NA player base should be grateful for as you will only be found in a temporary game mode.. frankly I see people sidescraping off team mates all the time with varying levels of success largely dependent on the skill of the players involved and only on the narrowest of paths is it not viable.

Again you just repeat the same arguments that have already been shot down and all they consist of is a statement of your opinion with no reference to any supporting evidence and in ways that demonstrate you only have a superficial understanding of the game mechanics.  The overmatch mechanics aren't just a means to lolpen an enemy tank, the knowledge of these (by the way since when was the ability to learn and remember worthy of such derision by you? Perhaps try learning some time.) allows the defender to know when and how to push/poke and exactly how best to use cover depending on the caliber of gun they are up against and observation of the enemy player to see if they have awareness of and utilise the overmatch characteristics of their guns..

This is my last post on this debate with you, clearly you cannot see the flaws in your thinking and are simply happy to continue using your broken tank. You havent made any cogent argument to justify the current characteristics of this tank.

In my experience, players in ranked battles were better at getting the most out of their tanks. Since I'm more interested in actual tank potential than how folks in pubs play with or against them, ranked seems to be a better overall indicator. Would be interesting to get stats on average tank performances in ranked battles (especially rank 5).

Overmatch, as I understand it at least, ultimately indicates just more potential weakspots to shoot at and protect. Once you've memorized them, you've memorized them. They don't require dynamic analysis.

Another way to put it is that at least for me, weakspot mappings are far easier to learn than reading the minimap and knowing how to position myself to be most effective, especially as pieces are removed from the board. Perhaps it's different for you all.

Anyhow, your rules/definitions clearly aren't mine, and I'm fine with that. :)

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This is still going. I'd contemplate downvoting but that's reserved for Hopey. 


There's no need to downvote someone who is afraid to admit that they're shit at high tiers. 

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This is still going on? :facepalm: 

 

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Can't he just go to the pub forums where people have no balls to admit their fav tank is broken? FFS I really liked to play pre nerf kv1s and I really like to play my amx 13 57GF but I'm not pretending those were/are balanced tanks

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Sorry guys my bad... I would say I fed the troll but he seems to truly beleive what he is saying.. nevertheless I should have left well alone as a lost cause.

I have come across a number of people recently who seem to revel in deliberate ignorance....

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I expect you all would have been pissed at Alexander the Great for his lack of skill in cutting the Gordian Knot. :P

I'm glad WG has seen fit to include tanks that are good at bypassing ordinary armor mechanics, if only because I like to see elitists annoyed, and the Type 5 seems to be one of the better instances, since it rarely, if ever, one-shots anything it's likely to see head-to-head (unlike the KV-2 or O-I). The Type is about doing solid, not silly, damage every time it shoots.

Imagine, however, if the Type 5 derp could pen its peers the way the KV-2 and O-I can pen -their- peers! :P Now -that- would be broken.

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3 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

I expect you all would have been pissed at Alexander the Great for his lack of skill in cutting the Gordian Knot. :P

I'm glad WG has seen fit to include tanks that are good at bypassing ordinary armor mechanics, if only because I like to see elitists annoyed, and the Type 5 seems to be one of the better instances, since it rarely, if ever, one-shots anything it's likely to see head-to-head (unlike the KV-2 or O-I). The Type is about doing solid, not silly, damage every time it shoots.

Imagine, however, if the Type 5 derp could pen its peers the way the KV-2 and O-I can pen -their- peers! :P Now -that- would be broken.

I love your logic. Say something, people point out mistakes in your reasoning but instead of reading what they write call them all elitists to dismiss their posts. Not to mention calling someone elitist is a shitty dig since it claims being a less knowledgable person is somehow better. Are you a Trump voter by any chance? Because I assume anyone who uses elitism as a way to escape criticism is a retard.

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I was not going to downvote but you just had to drop that word in here:

31 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

because I like to see elitists annoyed

So yeah, negged.

Dude, the type 5 is a dumpster with an assault mortar bolted on its face.  If you like it because its noob friendly, thats fine, but don't come around here trying to claim its not broken and bad for the game.  It has a gold HE round that encourages players to deliberately aim at the dirt underneath opponents FFS.

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He continuously cites ranked battles because playing ranked makes him feel as if he has accomplished something and is above his skill level, meanwhile he most likely sucks even harder there than in pubs.

Classic case of "I'm not bad and I know everything"

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1 hour ago, hazzgar said:

I love your logic. Say something, people point out mistakes in your reasoning but instead of reading what they write call them all elitists to dismiss their posts. Not to mention calling someone elitist is a shitty dig since it claims being a less knowledgable person is somehow better. Are you a Trump voter by any chance? Because I assume anyone who uses elitism as a way to escape criticism is a retard.

 

54 minutes ago, Archaic_One said:

I was not going to downvote but you just had to drop that word in here:

So yeah, negged.

Dude, the type 5 is a dumpster with an assault mortar bolted on its face.  If you like it because its noob friendly, thats fine, but don't come around here trying to claim its not broken and bad for the game.  It has a gold HE round that encourages players to deliberately aim at the dirt underneath opponents FFS.

 

23 minutes ago, SchnitzelTruck said:

He continuously cites ranked battles because playing ranked makes him feel as if he has accomplished something and is above his skill level, meanwhile he most likely sucks even harder there than in pubs.

Classic case of "I'm not bad and I know everything"

I've attempted reasonable discussion with you all, but have seen no compelling arguments, and have indeed, rather, seen a great deal of elitism. The irony is that you all are comfortable with your knowledge of armor and weakspots, and because the Type 5 disrupts that comfort zone, you're not only complaining about it, you're attempting to project that onto me.

I've also avoided personal stat discussions because I despise argument from authority, which is simply petty tyranny.

I do realize elitism is a human defense mechanism, but the final irony is that no matter how much better we think we are than the other guy, entropy will, in the long run, make us all exactly the same.

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7 hours ago, Roccandil said:

so many words, so little said

There there little one. It's ok to have opinions, yours just happen to be wrong.

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2 hours ago, Roccandil said:

The irony is that you all are comfortable with your knowledge of armor and weakspots, and because the Type 5 disrupts that comfort zone

Translation: u mad 'cuz Type 5 ignores part of your skill. I don't have skill but I own Type 5.

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6 hours ago, Roccandil said:

I do realize elitism is a human defense mechanism

As is covering your ears and screaming over the top of everyone. 

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Is calling someone an "elitist" the latest incarnation of Godwin's Law?

@Roccandil: What exactly do you mean by "elitist"? I'm tempted to quote Inigo here and say I don't think it means what you think it means.

Also, shouldn't you be saying 'Left Wing Elitists" since that's the usual form of the ad hominem.

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3 hours ago, Manic_Wombat said:

Is calling someone an "elitist" the latest incarnation of Godwin's Law?

@Roccandil: What exactly do you mean by "elitist"? I'm tempted to quote Inigo here and say I don't think it means what you think it means.

Also, shouldn't you be saying 'Left Wing Elitists" since that's the usual form of the ad hominem.

I was merely calling him an idiot who sucks at the game and pretends to know too much while having a skull too thick for jag100 heat to penetrate. Good thing the Type5 doesn't need to penetrate that thick skull.

Too harsh?

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Better to Remain Silent and Be Thought a Fool than to Speak and Remove All Doubt

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