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Murazor’s wishlist: Change of Shell characteristics & smoothbore guns

41 posts in this topic

5 hours ago, Assassin7 said:

the game works on the surface because its simple

I disagree to some extend. What you said was true like 3 years ago.

What was different then is that the game worked on several layers back then of which actual gameplay was just one. The others were "must have nice/iconic/sexy tank" and "want to grind to tier X" and "want gud crew" and even "want l33t EFF/WN6/WN7/WN8".

After so many years however most of the veterans that are still in the game have "finished" the other layers and thus the full attention goes to the gameplay. And, uh, the gameplay is somewhat sucky if you look at it (and always has been). Prem ammo is one dimensional and a balance nightmare on top. Crew skills and Equipment is likewise a boring system with no real choices. Maps are too small for the higher tiers and the way accuracy, penetration and damage is modeled is too simple. Tier diferences are way too harsh.

In short, if you look only at the gameplay, WoT hasn't changed in years. Everything else changed, but not the gameplay.

And still, WG fears changing the gameplay and instead applies band aid to the severed limb. Armor buffs do not fix prem spam. What WG must do in order to cajole the game into a btter future is to redesign how hitting/damage/penetration and thus armor work.

Giving small tanks with few chances to actually pen the target some other form of damage - like fire. Making the ammo model more realistic - too high pen can result in overpenetrations for low damage and now suddenly choosing the right ammo is a thing. Make high tier maps different from low and mid tier ones - it is stupid to have mostly the same maps from tier I to X. Change tanks designations where it makes sense - the AMX 50B is NOT a heavy and shouldn't be handled the same as a Maus.

And then the gameplay alone, without all the fluff that we got tired with, would make us play the game again.

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57 minutes ago, Jaegaer said:

Tier diferences are way too harsh.

This can't be emphasized enough. A tank a tier higher, should be a superior tank by virtue of it's properties (even if only incremental or iterative instead of revolutionary). Of course hitpoints are a balancing-factor and should be used wherever an iteration of a tank isn't iterative enough but a slot needs to be filled regardless (say, various incarnations of the Panzer IV or the Churchills), but something like getting +50% hitpoints just because you made it from Tier 6 to Tier 7 is bad game design.

57 minutes ago, Jaegaer said:

And still, WG fears changing the gameplay and instead applies band aid to the severed limb. Armor buffs do not fix prem spam. What WG must do in order to cajole the game into a btter future is to redesign how hitting/damage/penetration and thus armor work.

Giving small tanks with few chances to actually pen the target some other form of damage - like fire. Making the ammo model more realistic - too high pen can result in overpenetrations for low damage and now suddenly choosing the right ammo is a thing.

That is something that was pointed out for years. At the most basic level, it boiled down to less damage for premium ammo, but still, they couldn't even bring themselves to do that. This is probably a thing that will bug this game till it's very end, despite it potentially having quite a drastic and lasting impact on the game. What's the problem with having three good choices of ammo per tank, each having it's own drawbacks and advantages and thus making them all viable choices in their own right? This can't be too complicated for the average player to wrap his head around and people who are mentally challenged enough to not being able to distinguish between a solid wall or a breakable one while hitting RRR, should never be the benchmark of your average player, because all you do with catering to them is, inviting even more stupid.

57 minutes ago, Jaegaer said:

Make high tier maps different from low and mid tier ones - it is stupid to have mostly the same maps from tier I to X.

Well, they did get around to removing Province from the higher tiers at some points. Why the lower tiers got fucked along the road as well and are confined to two maps nowadays is something that will forever be beyond my understanding. But that is besides the point, as Mines and Ensk can be safely relegated to the lower tiers without any damage done to anyone at all whatsofuckingever. But for how long have people been advocating for how obviously stupid it is, to have a map that is 500 by 500 or 600 by 600 in a tier where every single fucking tank has 400 and more viewrange, which, at times, doesn't even allow half the tanks and i particular slower tanks to safely leave just their spawn point, thus further encouraging camping tactics?

57 minutes ago, Jaegaer said:

Change tanks designations where it makes sense - the AMX 50B is NOT a heavy and shouldn't be handled the same as a Maus.

Huh. Now that you point it out... Whatever happened to the reclassifcation they were planning to be implemented along the MM-changes?  Is it still hilarious to get T10 fights, where one team gets Mauses, Types and JPE 100s while the other side gets NATO-meds as top tiers? Preferably on Paris, because why not fuck one team over even more while we are at it? Because WarGaming, I guess.

 

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1 hour ago, Jaegaer said:

...

In short, if you look only at the gameplay, WoT hasn't changed in years. Everything else changed, but not the gameplay.

...

 

It has - for the worse. I don't know how long you are playing, but around the time the french were introduced (4th tree - after they toned them down a little) you had at least in some tiers (looking at my favorite t8) a somewhat decent balance, which made playing them a joy. Sure it wasn't perfect in 2012 but "no" prem ammo in randoms, armor that meaned something without overbuffed fails, more open maps, made playing T32 vs. IS3 vs KT  a real joy and the mediums even with 175 - 200mm pen at the same tier also were relevant.

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I will come back if WG add smoothbore gun to T62A 

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The problem with this is that if we nerf premium ammo today it just ends up being a huge buff for the Type 5, Maus, Chrysler GF, Defender, etc and a huge nerf for the Leopard, Patton, Pershing, T-44, etc.  I get that 2 years ago mediums had creeped a lot of heavies into oblivion but thats pretty much been corrected, the heavies already determine game outcomes now - this just pushes the needle even farther in favor of all of these absurd fantasy bricks.  

What problem is this actually going to solve? 

 

edit - well fuck me running, the cake WAS a lie

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4 hours ago, Archaic_One said:

The problem with this is that if we nerf premium ammo today it just ends up being a huge buff for the Type 5, Maus, Chrysler GF, Defender, etc and a huge nerf for the Leopard, Patton, Pershing, T-44, etc.  I get that 2 years ago mediums had creeped a lot of heavies into oblivion but thats pretty much been corrected, the heavies already determine game outcomes now - this just pushes the needle even farther in favor of all of these absurd fantasy bricks.  

What problem is this actually going to solve? 

edit - well fuck me running, the cake WAS a lie

Undo all the stupid buffs?

WG painted themself in a corner, just like they did with tier 10 TDs and arty

I always said the only way wot dies is by stupid developer decisions, if they keep everything as it was (in 2011, before gold ammo) wot would live on forever, just add 2 new tech trees a year, buff / nerf a few tanks, add / remove some maps, and thats it.

Each fucking ``change`` was stupid, and each fix is either over the top, not enough, or half way...

Heavy tanks should be ``the best`` for joe avg, but you dont do this by random buffing tanks, you do this by fixing what makes heavys crap: gold shells and arty

the BIG FAT PINK ELEFANT IN THE ROOM ARE THE FUCKING GOLD ROUNDS, ALL OTHER CHANGES EXCEPT ARTY RAPE ARE HALF-ARSED MORON SOLUTIONS AS LONG AS WG WONT NERF GOLD AMMO.

Buffing maus armor so it bounces gold shells a bit more makes it imprevious against lower tier AP, while the tier 9 mauschen is still crap (armor wise), same for type 5, crystler, defender and countless others.

removing weakspots is another moronic decision...

another future problem is already created, namely, giving every fucking tank good gun depression, gun depression (like high penetration...) used to be an advantage, but nowadays? there are more tanks with good as ``bad`` gun depression, its retarded...

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Thought this was posted already although the meandering discussion does have value.

Quote

 

Now, for some more serious matter, I’m going to talk about a supposed Murazor Whishlist, for World of Tanks. One thing I have learned over the last twelve months, was that we always have to double check information. The main reason for this, it’s because there is a lot of fake news out there, and we don’t want to be that blog that publishes wrong information, specially the one that can create massive sh*tstorms.

This whishlist even included a complete branch of Premium Vehicles, introduction of smooth bore guns, new types of ammunition and loads more… But how much there is actually true?

The answer is simple: none. The source for those articles is in fact, not Murazor VK profile, but a post in a Murazor TV Group. The small detail none of these articles are telling is, it wasn’t Murazor who posted the article, but one of the admins of that group.

 

https://thedailybounce.net/2017/07/24/world-of-tanks-murazor-shopping-list/

#REMOVE_MURAZOR_FROM_THE_GAME

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25 minutes ago, GehakteMolen said:

Undo all the stupid buffs?

WG painted themself in a corner, just like they did with tier 10 TDs and arty

I always said the only way wot dies is by stupid developer decisions, if they keep everything as it was (in 2011, before gold ammo) wot would live on forever, just add 2 new tech trees a year, buff / nerf a few tanks, add / remove some maps, and thats it.

Each fucking ``change`` was stupid, and each fix is either over the top, not enough, or half way...

Heavy tanks should be ``the best`` for joe avg, but you dont do this by random buffing tanks, you do this by fixing what makes heavys crap: gold shells and arty

the BIG FAT PINK ELEFANT IN THE ROOM ARE THE FUCKING GOLD ROUNDS, ALL OTHER CHANGES EXCEPT ARTY RAPE ARE HALF-ARSED MORON SOLUTIONS AS LONG AS WG WONT NERF GOLD AMMO.

Buffing maus armor so it bounces gold shells a bit more makes it imprevious against lower tier AP, while the tier 9 mauschen is still crap (armor wise), same for type 5, crystler, defender and countless others.

removing weakspots is another moronic decision...

another future problem is already created, namely, giving every fucking tank good gun depression, gun depression (like high penetration...) used to be an advantage, but nowadays? there are more tanks with good as ``bad`` gun depression, its retarded...

This pretty much is exactly what I wanted to write in Re to Archaic_One's last post. Pretty much everything he pointed out, has it's root cause in fucking gold ammo. Mediums were reigning supreme, because they were more mobile than any heavy (heavy as in heavily armored) and had the firepower to negate the one advantage the heavies got over them by double-tapping 2. This was and is stupid by design and you are not going to fix that gigantic clusterfuck at the heart of the cancer, by piling more and more armor or effective armor (removing weakspots) onto the heavies. All that does is, create even more imbalance, the obsolence of entire tank trees, the ever growing need for more penetration as you now can not even penetrate the weaker parts of the heavy's armor without premium shells, by proxy, ruining entire game-styles (both via map-design or the inability to penetrate even the weakest parts of their armor with premium ammo, hello light tanks) and thus growing more and more frustration in those parts of the playerbase, that does not want to play World of Maus 24/7.

Also, that last sentence, so true. The increasing lack of gameplay variety caused by World of Superheavy Corridor, isn't exactly going to get any better by giving everything increased gun depression, welcome though it may be for some tanks. It's just another symptome of the greater evil at work here. Whoever decides on these changes, isn't exactly in touch with what is bad about this game. Same for the turret buffs of the british tanks. They are welcome, but they will not fix what is wrong with these tanks.

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2 hours ago, Madner Kami said:

This pretty much is exactly what I wanted to write in Re to Archaic_One's last post. Pretty much everything he pointed out, has it's root cause in fucking gold ammo. Mediums were reigning supreme, because they were more mobile than any heavy (heavy as in heavily armored) and had the firepower to negate the one advantage the heavies got over them by double-tapping 2. This was and is stupid by design and you are not going to fix that gigantic clusterfuck at the heart of the cancer, by piling more and more armor or effective armor (removing weakspots) onto the heavies. All that does is, create even more imbalance, the obsolence of entire tank trees, the ever growing need for more penetration as you now can not even penetrate the weaker parts of the heavy's armor without premium shells, by proxy, ruining entire game-styles (both via map-design or the inability to penetrate even the weakest parts of their armor with premium ammo, hello light tanks) and thus growing more and more frustration in those parts of the playerbase, that does not want to play World of Maus 24/7.

Also, that last sentence, so true. The increasing lack of gameplay variety caused by World of Superheavy Corridor, isn't exactly going to get any better by giving everything increased gun depression, welcome though it may be for some tanks. It's just another symptome of the greater evil at work here. Whoever decides on these changes, isn't exactly in touch with what is bad about this game. Same for the turret buffs of the british tanks. They are welcome, but they will not fix what is wrong with these tanks.

Another stupid buff it buffing the gun handling of all tanks all the time

M46 used to have:

  • No armor
  • Gun depression
  • DPM
  • Gun handling

WG now buffs everything else hes gun depression and gun handling, making the M46 crap, so what can they do? wait, put armor on it! (and guess what was leaked)

All this does is make all tanks more and more the same, killing the one thing that made wot so good: variety...

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Another huge problem is their fear of rebalancing premiums. You cant remove gold or monsters like the Krysler or Defender will be unstoppable. So then they have to buff the rest of the tanks. But this increases chances of fucking up the entire balance system.  

But why they cant touch prems? Because tanks cost alot so refunds we be a huge money lost for the company. Well they deserve it being so greedy and lazy you get these results.

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Honestly, I think the best time for this game was mid-late 2014. That was its highest point. Its all downhill from there.

They need to go back 2 years, look at what was different, what they've changed since then, and readjust with that sort of goal in mind. The number if unbalanced tanks has skyrocketed since then. The not nerfing prems thing is bullshit. They seem incapable of making a balanced prem. First they were scared of making an OP prem they might have to nerf so they made them all terribad, then they realised those weren't selling so they started making them OP as fuck. The last time they released a prem that was actually decent. Not OP or trash was I think the CDC/M46 KR/Mutz. 

They are dumbing down the game, making it more and more for stupid people. Making a game designed for stupid doesn't make a good game. Look at the most popular MMOs: LoL, DOTA, CS:GO, EVE, etc. They've been going for years and years and they ALL have massive learning curves and require lots of skill to be good. Games designed for stupid dont last. Especially in the Esports league.

 

I love this game. I dont want it to die. I dont want to get sick of playing it. I have never played a single game regularly for this long before - 6 and a half years so far. This game and the communities and people I've met through it has actually had a lasting and major positive effect on my life. I've learned so much from it and people in general. I dont want it to die. But even I am getting sick of it. Im logging in, sitting in the garage for 5 minutes, and logging out because I dont feel like playing. 

WG needs to start making some major changes before its too late. And its very nearly almost too late. 

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8 hours ago, Assassin7 said:

Honestly, I think the best time for this game was mid-late 2014. That was its highest point. Its all downhill from there.

They need to go back 2 years, look at what was different, what they've changed since then, and readjust with that sort of goal in mind. The number if unbalanced tanks has skyrocketed since then. The not nerfing prems thing is bullshit. They seem incapable of making a balanced prem. First they were scared of making an OP prem they might have to nerf so they made them all terribad, then they realised those weren't selling so they started making them OP as fuck. The last time they released a prem that was actually decent. Not OP or trash was I think the CDC/M46 KR/Mutz. 

They are dumbing down the game, making it more and more for stupid people. Making a game designed for stupid doesn't make a good game. Look at the most popular MMOs: LoL, DOTA, CS:GO, EVE, etc. They've been going for years and years and they ALL have massive learning curves and require lots of skill to be good. Games designed for stupid dont last. Especially in the Esports league.

 

I love this game. I dont want it to die. I dont want to get sick of playing it. I have never played a single game regularly for this long before - 6 and a half years so far. This game and the communities and people I've met through it has actually had a lasting and major positive effect on my life. I've learned so much from it and people in general. I dont want it to die. But even I am getting sick of it. Im logging in, sitting in the garage for 5 minutes, and logging out because I dont feel like playing. 

WG needs to start making some major changes before its too late. And its very nearly almost too late. 

Maybe solution for retarded premiums is premium conversion of regular vehicles. So you get good money making without stupid tanks. And maybe push bonus factor towards shitty tanks like T-32 or T-34-2... 

So people would be “forced” to play less entertaining tanks for getting additional CR.

Also for all this years (2011 onwards) there wasn’t single tank based game that got close to this (IMHO). Combination of big amount of tanks, trees, modules is just addictive and player base is pretty big compred to other games. That’s why I keep playing all over again. Addiction in a way that any other game didn’t came close. 

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On ‎25‎.‎07‎.‎2017 at 11:28 PM, nabucodonsor said:

You cant remove gold

Right. Thats exactly the problem. What you need to do is to totally revise the whole way that shells work in WoT. This would also give additional ways to differentiate tanks and finally could also fix the horrible tier imbalance.

But WG is WAY too chicken for that and thus they changed the game over the years to get along with gold rounds somewhat, and now the game NEEDS gold rounds.

Full speed ahead in the Cul-de-Sac...

On ‎26‎.‎07‎.‎2017 at 0:02 AM, Assassin7 said:

They need to go back 2 years, look at what was different, what they've changed since then, and readjust with that sort of goal in mind.

Its not that easy. Games like WoT work on many different levels. From marveling at beautiful tanks in your garage to wanting to have that tier X or that perfect crew to craving knowledge about mechanics.

And all that won't come back with reverting some changes.

With the game being so old and most of us playing/plyed for so long, we are now left with the core gameply and only the core gameplay to drive us on. And the core gameplay has always been lacking.

And WG still tries to put more fluff around it instead of changing it.

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The institutional cowardice they have towards adjusting stats on premium tanks is baffling.  They need to man up and realize that  if they make the MG ports on the Chrysler weaker or thin out the LFP on the defender that they aren't actually going to lose a ton of money.  

The nerfs to accuracy have also probably done as much to encourage prem spam as the retarded frontal armor.   I am grinding Chinese heavies, I'm on the IS-2 with a meh crew.  I spam the fuck out of gold in it not because I can't make 175 pen work, but because I can't make 175 pen with .46 accuracy / 3.3 second aim time work.  Prem ammo gets used as an RNG compensator at least as much as an armor negator.

I don't know how to fix it.  You guys are a lot more knowledgeable about this than I am - but I do know that a massive scale rebalance of broken armor values is a lot less likely to happen than a nerf of prem ammo alpha - and a nerf of prem ammo without any other rebalance is essentially a nerf of non-heavies.  

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5 hours ago, Archaic_One said:

The institutional cowardice they have towards adjusting stats on premium tanks is baffling.  They need to man up and realize that  if they make the MG ports on the Chrysler weaker or thin out the LFP on the defender that they aren't actually going to lose a ton of money.  

The nerfs to accuracy have also probably done as much to encourage prem spam as the retarded frontal armor.   I am grinding Chinese heavies, I'm on the IS-2 with a meh crew.  I spam the fuck out of gold in it not because I can't make 175 pen work, but because I can't make 175 pen with .46 accuracy / 3.3 second aim time work.  Prem ammo gets used as an RNG compensator at least as much as an armor negator.

I don't know how to fix it.  You guys are a lot more knowledgeable about this than I am - but I do know that a massive scale rebalance of broken armor values is a lot less likely to happen than a nerf of prem ammo alpha - and a nerf of prem ammo without any other rebalance is essentially a nerf of non-heavies.  

You're right. Just about a year ago, just fiddling with premium ammo would have been fine and it was, argueably, the most sensible way to adress the issues regarding the lack of effective armor on heavily armored tanks. Nowadays though? Yeah, remove gold or lower gold pen and Maus and Co are the only vehicles one can drive at all. Way to develop yourself into a corner, WG. Well done.

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It's still a fixable problem, but they would need to do a total premium ammo rebalance, a total heavy tank rebalance, td rebalance, light tank rebalance, and redesign/open up most of the maps all in one patch.

.... so yeah I take that back, it's not really a fixable problem for WG.

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