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Vampiresbane

Thinking about using 2nd best gun on two tanks-Bat Chat 25 AP and T95

20 posts in this topic

Here's my thought process and I'll separate it out.

Bat Chat 25t AP

For the Bat Chat 25t AP, 41 seconds (top gun) for the reload keeps me out of the battle so long, I feel like I'm having less of an impact.  Sure 1800 damage is great.  I can kill a whole 8 with that and various tier 9s.  But part-of-the-meta-that-is-WoT is presence.  If tanks are worried about an enemy tank (like a Conqueror or Emil or t62a) shooting them, their overall shot output will decrease.  This in turn helps keep your allies (Pubs/Potatoes) alive longer. 

Another interesting bonus is my power to weight ration is better with the 90mm which means I feel less sluggish and the tier 9 batty feels sluggish with the top gun. 

So 1440 dmg, better presence with reload of 28s, better mobility, but worse overall pen

-or-

1800 dmg, less presence with reload of 41s, slightly worse mobility, and better pen?

 

t95

Now onto the t95. 

Slightly simpler question.  Better dpm, less alpha (3300 dpm, 400 alpha) vs less dpm, more alpha (2900 dpm, 750 alpha)?  Based on experience, I played better and tore more shit up when using the 120mm gun.  Why?  Most players were not A) expecting me to reload so quickly B) Keep them tracked in some cases and C) Not blow my load on a single high alpha shot.  The 120mm doesn't allow tanks to as easily flank and get your sides or rear which, let's face it, is the main weakness of the t95.  When I started using the 155mm, I was seeing higher damage games, but much less carries because the end game typically saw me facing 2 or 3 tanks-- I'd kill one or two, the leftovers would get my sides/rear. 

So better dpm or better alpha (120mm vs 155mm)? 

 

TLDR: For these two tier 9 tanks, I'm considering using the smaller gun because of the benefits they provide. 

BONUS QUESTION for t95: Camo net for 20m less enemy vision, toolkit for faster track repair, or vents to help max vision?  (I use gun rammer, optics)  I was leaning toolkit, but I'm realizing I can pair optic and vents to get 445 view range.

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Tool kit might be nice because of all the different tracks the t95 has and how easy it is to perma track it, but i haven't played it.

 

 

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Camo net is never an option on T95. If you are far enough for it to do something, you are playing it wrong.

For both bat and T95, unless you are willing to spam the hell out of premium ammo, you want the higher penetration top gun in the current meta.

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Yup, I'm fine with no camo net.  That leaves a toolkit vs vents discussion.

Let's list the pens for both tanks for both guns.

t95:

120mm:  248mm/297mm

155mm: 276mm/320mm

Bat AP:

90mm: 200mm/250mm

100mm: 232mm/263mm

 

So the t95, we're mainly debating 248mm vs 276mm b/c the gold pens are both so high. If you're worried about penning something, you'll probably pen it regardless with either gold shell.

248mm pen is pretty high.  That's higher than most tier 8 gold shells.  (Interesting side note, I just realized the 120mm is the same gun as the T34.)  As a t95 you're shooting the fronts of heavies and sometimes other tank destroyers, tiers 7 through 10.  Tiers 7 and 8 are butter to 248mm.  No issues whatsoever there.  Tier 9's, you're really only going to struggle with other ultra armored tanks.  Same with tier 10 super heavies and tds.  In either case, you're going to load gold regardless.  Besides the fear factor, I'm still not seeing why I should use the 155mm over 120mm. 

 

With the Bat AP, 200mm vs 232mm is pretty rough; the 90mm does lose out on quite a bit of penetration.  One upside I didn't bring up with the 90mm earlier is the # of shells.  42 shells vs 30 shells.  So you can worry less about ammo loadout going into battle.  Bringing more gold shells isn't as much of a concern.  On the other hand, 232mm isn't going to pen t95's, e100's, Maus, mini mice, types, etc from the front regardless; you're going to want to shoot from the sides no matter the gun if you have AP loaded.  And even then you may want to STILL use gold for that.  250mm is HEAT while the 263mm is APCR. 

Long story short, 90mm gives flexibility and that's what I'm arguing for.  The Bat Chat AP just has such a long reload on the 100mm that it limits its flexibility in: mobility, ammo loadout, initial map control (mines is a great example, you'll be dead before you ever load your first clip if going hill), and presence.  The point of playing a medium is flexibility.  The point of playing an autoloader is being able to clip targets.  My point is that maybe the 90mm gives a better balance of flexibility for a slightly smaller damage per clip. 

 

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If you want BC AP with better flexibility, play 13 90. It gives you way more flexible clip, less delay between shots, better mobility and better camo(?). 

90mm on batchat is flat out downgrade. Worse penetration, worse shell velocity, HEAT with worse penetration as premium ammo, lower alpha. Oh and worse gun handling with worse final accuracy. Alpha/penetration/gun handling are all important in the meta, while final accuracy and shell velocity are both nice things to have. 

Sure, there might be a few situations where you could use having 13s faster reload. Issue is, 90% of the time you are going to miss everything you trade for that reload.

 

I saw 120mm being used on T95, mostly to shorten the grind to E3 when T95 was utter joke. I also saw it used as a meme gun. And I do not think it's competitive. I guess you might pull decent-ish results with it since T95 is faster than it used to be so you might be able to use the DPM more often. Also, the 297mm vs 320mm pen matters when firing at almost every T10 heavy. Looking at the list of T10 heavies, it'll give you higher chance to pen: 113's upper plate (if your shell goes high), E100's angled turret or highly angled LFP, IS-4's angled cheeks, IS-7 upper plate, Maus's angled turret or lower plate, Type 5 heavy almost anywhere, JPE100's superstructure, you can overmatch STRV's... lots of situations where even 23mm of pen might be useful to not get fucked by RNG.

 

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Using anything but the 155 when you're so slow is pretty dumb imo. DPM only means something when a player is retarded enough to allow you to use it.
In most cases, people you will shoot once and then the player will have backed off. In this case alpha > DPM.

There is literally no reason to use the 90mm in the Bat AP. If you can't properly time your clips, with the 100mm anyways, you won't be doing much better with the 90mm.

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So if I hear you guys right, you all think I'm crazy.

Ok, fairly convinced using the 2nd top guns isn't the best idea.  Thank you for letting me bounce this idea off of your collective heads.

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2 hours ago, Vampiresbane said:

One upside I didn't bring up with the 90mm earlier is the # of shells.  42 shells vs 30 shells.  So you can worry less about ammo loadout going into battle. 

I'm pretty sure the 100mm ammo count is being buffed in 9.20. Imo, the 90mm is only good when you can't use anything else, i.e. the 13 90. And for the T95, you're so slow that dpm is usually meaningless. You have short windows where you can actually shoot something, and when those windows pop up, you need the alpha damage. 

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105mm is the best gun for t95. RoF means everything!!

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3 hours ago, SchnitzelTruck said:

105mm is the best gun for t95. RoF means everything!!

:doge:

Since T95 is so slow, 155APCR is obvious choice. It hurts when you get 750 slap, and you are always one step backwards allowing enemies just to ahut the front.

In my little experience with T95, if you need to defend sides/back of tank you are already fucked. 

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11 hours ago, Vampiresbane said:

Better dpm, less alpha (3300 dpm, 400 alpha) vs less dpm, more alpha (2900 dpm, 750 alpha)

If you are talking about high tier tanks, you should consider the first-shot DPM. (In case you don't know what it is: it is the standard DPM plus the alpha.) At the beginning of the engagement you already have a shell in the chamber. If you consider this (3700 dpm, 400 alpha) vs (3650 dpm, 750 alpha), then the question boils down to this:better RoF or better alpha. Imho alpha is the king, especially on slow platforms.

PS: It is useful to discuss questions like this, so don't worry about it, if the community disagrees.

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I'm not afraid of a T95 with a 120mm/400 alpha gun. It's so slow that I can easily get away or get around it before it can hit me twice. Nobody wants to take a 750 alpha hit.

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if you wanted a slow, non-turreted tank with a 120mm gun that has a good RoF, then may I suggest the Tortoise?

The Tortoise, armed with the legendary 120mm L1A1, has over 3k base DPM, while the T95 with the 120mm T53 gun has just around 2.7k DPM
The Tortoise also has better gun handling and a wider gun arc

With the T95 you really want to stick to the 155mm, as you don't gain much benefit with the 120mm. The T30 can sorta get away with using the 120mm, only because it has a turret and the 155mm gun is even derpier on it (the power crept T30 remains chained to the old WG balance philosophy of making turreted TDs having worse gun handling than a non-turreted counterpart)

 

Regarding the BC 25t AP, i've bought it months ago but haven't started using it simply because I haven't unlocked the 100mm gun yet. Until I unlock it in the AMX 50 100, it'll remain idle while I grind other tanks.

I've played other tier 9 MTs and had to grind those using their 90mm guns, which aren't too bad on those (sometimes even better than the top gun Type 61). But after seeing the pathetic stats on the 90mm autoloader in the BC 25t AP, I'd rather hold that off. Till then i'll just use the far better AMX 13 90.

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2 minutes ago, ThomChen114 said:

Regarding the BC 25t AP, i've bought it months ago but haven't started using it simply because I haven't unlocked the 100mm gun yet. Until I unlock it in the AMX 50 100, it'll remain idle while I grind other tanks.

Being able to clip things out > short clip reload. 

 

Plus the sacrifice you are making to run the 90mm gun is just nowhere near worth it. "Its the worst trade deal in the history of trade deals". 

Losing out on alpha, clip potential, pen and a good gold round (which you should be using as standard). 

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3 minutes ago, MagicalFlyingFox said:

Plus the sacrifice you are making to run the 90mm gun is just nowhere near worth it. "Its the worst trade deal in the history of trade deals". 

 

:trump:

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On ‎8‎/‎16‎/‎2017 at 3:12 PM, Marty said:

If you want BC AP with better flexibility, play 13 90. It gives you way more flexible clip, less delay between shots, better mobility and better camo(?). 

-snip-

 

Yup, I have that tank.  It's fun as hell now.  I'm really just grinding the 25t AP to unlock the tier X.

 

And ug Trump.  What a douche.  Guy can't even keep business leaders happy and he's a "business leader." 

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On T95 last equipment slot: of the three, vents is the best choice. You get boost to overall skills not just vision, and that means turning faster, reload faster, see further and aim faster, all of which make your life easier. 

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When I see a team mate only take 400 damage from a T95, I know the T95 is not going to be able to punish me enough to keep me from yoloing him.  Taking ~800 damage and getting ammo-racked by the 155 is enough to keep me behind a rock.  Taking a single shot from an average NATO gun in exchange for a flanked and killed T95 is not.

As for the BC tAP, giving up an entire tier worth of alpha and pen is too much to trade for 12 seconds I would probably spend relocating anyway.

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DPM means shit when you are in the top of the slowest tanks. 155 or go home.

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