7T7

Judging performance - how to?

20 posts in this topic

So, I've just recently returned to the game. I'm not good at this game but I do care about trying to, at least, not be cancer. Before I left, WN8 was a major part of metrics used to measure performance. At least from the majority of clans' perspectives. I've come to understand, basically, that wn8 is dead and no longer really used for those purposes.

So that brings me to my question? Are there any suggested metrics to use for judging performance? DPG? Is that the end all be all? XP per game? WR? A combination? What are those metric targets for a good player (not necessarily purple - but blue-ish I guess - if I can use the wn8 colors for comparison) 

Please keep in mind I'm not asking for purple standards. I know what those are. I'm not a purple and likely won't ever be at my advanced age and capability. (Don't get me wrong - if I could be that good, I'd choose to be - I just know I'm not and won't ever be)

I look forward to hearing from you guys on this.

7T7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

DPG is always a good metric, but it varies by tank. Generally tier 8 I'd say shoot for 1.8 to 2k dpg, while tier 10 can vary from 2.3k to 3k based on class for above average play. TDs being on the high spectrum and heavies on the low end. Light tanks are tricky at tier 10, I'd say go for 2k dpg with 800-1k spotting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, if you learn to play as fast as you learnt how dead WN8 is, you're gonna be unicorn in no time:)

For me:

Per tank performance it would be DPG, WR and MOE.

Per account, it would be:

-DPGs in multiple tanks tier10

-WR in general

-Number of marks of excellence

-Personal Rating, to a certain degree

 

 

I dunno from where we are starting with you, but some early goals would be to:

Do your HP in damage every game, after that go for the numbers Veo suggested ergo 2k for tier8s, 2,5k for tier9s and 3k for tier 10s. And so on. WR should be 50% 55% 60% and so on...

 

Some people value WR above all else(Garbad for instance), while some respect only DPG. I'm somewhere in the middle on this. There's only so much carrying to be done with certain tanks. Like you really cant compare 907s capabilities to a Leo 1s. Having 70% WR with the Leo is much more impressive than having it with the 907. At the actual peak of the skill pool, most of the players have 3rd marked their tier 10 tanks so it really isnt a such a big deal. For instance i think closer to 90 people had 3rd marked their Bat-Chat in FAME.

Personal rating is good metric to evaluate experience, sure it's paddable, but you cannot be a shit player with 10k, or even 11k PR. It does not fit judging performance inside a session, day, month or a year, but for the whole duration of your wot career.

 

TL:DR; For performance judging aiming to improve, per tank it's DPG or WR. For account in general it's MOEs, DPGs and WR

 

I hope this helps somewhat...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The best way to tell is how often artillery shits on you.

Seriously though, it's multiple things I'd say, there's no one way to decide if a player is good. The post SaintLaurentius made is probably how I'd sum it up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Veo said:

DPG is always a good metric, but it varies by tank. Generally tier 8 I'd say shoot for 1.8 to 2k dpg, while tier 10 can vary from 2.3k to 3k based on class for above average play. TDs being on the high spectrum and heavies on the low end. Light tanks are tricky at tier 10, I'd say go for 2k dpg with 800-1k spotting.

I could quote SaintLaur's post too, but Veo's is much shorter.  My main question revolves around whether or not we're talking "average damage per game overall" or what typical damage you should shoot for per match. 

2k/game in a tier 8 is really high.  Average should probably more like 1.6k.  That's across all games.  Just not necessarily what you should be shooting for in a winning game. 

Let's compare two sets of tier 8s.  Emil 1 and Tiger II.  My Tiger II has 1.67k/game.  My Emil 1 has 2.1k/game. 

wG8UTh7.png8fe4yrh.png

As you can see, 2k/game average is a REALLY high bar.  That isn't easy by a long shot.  Hell 1.6k average per game gives you high WN8 numbers for some tanks as can be seen by the Tiger II stats. 

Conclusion? An averge damage of 2k/game in a tier 8 is not realistic for 90-95% of the playerbase.  It might not even be realistic for tier 9.  It, however, should be each player's goal during a typical match.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, Vampiresbane said:

 

Fair enough. It's all about perspective. Anything less than 2,5k damage game in a tier8 is trash for me, if I'm behind the wheel that is. But that's why I'm so good/bad as I am.

I'm wondering off-topic here, as usual, but I just checked 7T7's stats. He's got sub his own HP in most heavies, so maybe thats the thing to work on first? Do your own HP in damage and do whatever it takes to get there. I don't mean throwing games to get the last shot in, but you get the picture. There's plenty of info about maps, positions and tactics here. Learn and utilize those, the results will come along with those.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, SaintLaurentius said:

Fair enough. It's all about perspective. Anything less than 2,5k damage game in a tier8 is trash for me, if I'm behind the wheel that is. But that's why I'm so good/bad as I am.

I'm wondering off-topic here, as usual, but I just checked 7T7's stats. He's got sub his own HP in most heavies, so maybe thats the thing to work on first? Do your own HP in damage and do whatever it takes to get there. I don't mean throwing games to get the last shot in, but you get the picture. There's plenty of info about maps, positions and tactics here. Learn and utilize those, the results will come along with those.

Sure, I won't disagree with that statement.  I definitely don't feel like I've played well in a tier 8 until I'm getting passed the 2500 damage threshold.  I know I've done really well if I get 4k or higher. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Doing your own hit points of damage is actually way above average already on most tanks. Maybe aim for a bit more for TD's, and perhaps even a bit less for lights but more assistant. You can use DPG as a measure of how you are doing, but I don't see point of taking it as a goal on individual game level. Why would you not aim to do as much as possible each game? It's not like you should stop playing after you have reached you damage goal in certain game, or you should be disappointed if you don't reach it if you have done everything you could have. What is good damage also really depends on the match. In some games I'm really happy with 2 k damage in Scorpion G (T10 game with 15-1 win or other way around), on other games doing 3k feels like I could have done a lot more. Everyone gets bad games, you just have to take everything you can from those, and remember to also get everything you can from good games. It's really easy to get lazy after you have done good damage in good game, when in fact that is the time you have to go for more and make up for those bad games.

 

Edit: 2.5K average at T8 is still pretty unrealistic goal. Saint you have one T8 tank with 2.5K or above :D In reality 2.5K at T10 is actually purple I think? Or pretty close at least.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Focus on what @CraBeatOff has told you: if you make better decisions stas will come around. Does not work the other way around and it is more fun than playing for stats. Remember dpg varies between tank classes and between same tanks. This is what wn8 was good for, they guys who invented had a fantastic idea, because it considered these factors. I never believed it was the perfect stat (far from that) but it helped a lot to follow your progress. 

On a side note why the hell my wn8 is so high compared my wr? I havent played for a while but damn my stats are so wierd. And i was not even padding since i dont even know to do it. Any ideas?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, nabucodonsor said:

Any ideas?

Playing LTs, perchance? I've got purple recent Wn8 because of this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, nabucodonsor said:

On a side note why the hell my wn8 is so high compared my wr?

You've mostly been playing the Batchat, and those stats line up with your recents. So, think about why you could be getting low purple DPG with teal win rate in that tank (e.g. consistently getting out a clip of empty damage after the game is lost). 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Basically what @CraBeatOff said, he took the words out of my mouth. Personally I don't find DPG/WN8 alone to be very credible metric, once you've reached a certain skill level. A lot of dat shiny damage comes from cleanup, whereas the actual battle is influenced & won by those 2-3 key shots placed at the right time. 

 

But don't get me wrong: DPG output is hella important. If you're good at outputting damage, you should be proud of that. Most pubbies can't outstrip their hp pool, and rising DPG means you are walking further away from that swamp.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, sohojacques said:

Playing LTs, perchance? I've got purple recent Wn8 because of this.

Nope stopped after the t49 triggered me for the second time ( a part from a couple of games in the bulldog now and then) 

 

8 hours ago, monjardin said:

You've mostly been playing the Batchat, and those stats line up with your recents. So, think about why you could be getting low purple DPG with teal win rate in that tank (e.g. consistently getting out a clip of empty damage after the game is lost). 

Mmmmm yeah altough i did play a lot the mutz and 34-85m to get some credits if i remember. Well i admit that i always felt to be hard to carry with the Bat consistently, hard to find the limit between being too aggressive or not enough.  Thanks anyway. What did you use to find out what i played last? Wotlabs does not show it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I appreciate all of the feedback. Taken to heart. Now if I can get these old eyes, brain and reactions to cooperate :)

7T7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2017-08-22 at 9:34 PM, SaintLaurentius said:

Fair enough. It's all about perspective. Anything less than 2,5k damage game in a tier8 is trash for me, if I'm behind the wheel that is. But that's why I'm so good/bad as I am.

I'm wondering off-topic here, as usual, but I just checked 7T7's stats. He's got sub his own HP in most heavies, so maybe thats the thing to work on first? Do your own HP in damage and do whatever it takes to get there. I don't mean throwing games to get the last shot in, but you get the picture. There's plenty of info about maps, positions and tactics here. Learn and utilize those, the results will come along with those.

For me it's 4,5 in T10s, 4 in 9s and 3 in 8s and those numbers just kept rising as I got better.

My first T10 was 4 years ago or something, and 3K DPG was good. Then I got better, and better, and soon you'll hit a wall where your own expectations and what is actually possible to do in a game start going very close to eachother meaning such a small amount of wiggle room that just doing a single wrong microposition will rek that 5-6k damage potential to 4k because of one hit you could have somehow avoided. Pretty interesting how the game goes from a first playthrough of a platforming game, to knowing the game and later into speedrunning strats where you do 2 frame timesaves that cost you like 10second if you fail over and over until you can do them every time :doge: 

 

And then you regress into a casual cuz all constant optimizing does to you is frustrate you over not doing it perfectly :serb: 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I find the best way of judging one's performance is listen to your teammates in pubs.

They'll always let you know how you're doing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 24.8.2017 at 2:19 AM, Canadian_Reaper said:

I find the best way of judging one's performance is listen to your teammates in pubs.

They'll always let you know how you're doing.

This one made me chuckle.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites