Madner Kami

Graf Zeppelin

55 posts in this topic

I'm beginning to wonder what would happen, if every carrier gets a "max planes in the air"- and "max squads in the air"-limit attached, while the player freely decides the composition, instead of the current fixed loadouts.

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1 hour ago, Madner Kami said:

the player freely decides

 

1 hour ago, MntRunner said:

that would be for the best

CVs are broken in their power and anything that would make them even harder to play in the sense of widening the gap between a good and a bad player must be prevented. Yeh, not a popular opinion here by any means but look at it as the BB in your team: you have the clueless pubbie that goes DBs only (bc, muh autodrop) vs a very good player running balanced Fighters / TBs...

Still happy about pubbies being able to choose their own loadout?

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Being able to choose your own loadout would be disastrous. Part of learning in videogames is predictability of a strategy. You literally cannot predict what loadout a person would run until you see their planes. By the time this happens, it may be too late for a player. You also still run into issues where people will play AS anything just for the hell of it (or because they think it's good in randoms or something) or Strike (because they like screwing their team over or something).

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You can't balance for stupid and since when exactly are unpredicatble loadouts a problem for any competative online game? Are you kidding me? By the same reasoning, you'd need to remove stock loadouts in Tanks, gear in WoW and you'd have to set card decks for the myriads of Hearthstone-knockoffs out there. That's the worst arguement I've seen in a while.

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You don't need to pick every single plane either, just squadrons. Maybe a CV  is limited to 5 squadrons, the player would have the capability to select what plane types those squadrons could be . I don't think that is too hard for the average player to understand.

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Why we can't have nice things:

GvmE1NZ.jpg

He was alone, I sent 15 AP dive bombers his way, about 10 make it to the drop, 3 more die on the way back, 7 bombs hit, dealing ~32k damage. At the same time a single volley fired off from one of our battleships, adds about 30k damage more and he starts to cry. I need anywhere between 3 and 5 minutes to get the next drop on him for another 30k damage, while any of our battleships could do the same Every. 30. Seconds. But it's the carrier that is broken and needs nerfing. Perfect example of why carriers are in the sorry state they are in.

P.S.: The drop delay on GZ Test I's AP bombers is still stupid. Just going in a straight line at 30+knots allows you to "dodge" part of the drop.

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1 hour ago, Madner Kami said:

But it's the carrier that is broken and needs nerfing

The carrer can do that damage with an auto drop - no aiming necessary. You can't angle against him. He also can spot/permaspot most ships he comes across. He can hit ships behind islands.

Also you could have just as well done 100k damage or 10k.

This is what needs to be adressed and thats not "why Cvs can't have nice things."

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2 hours ago, Jaegaer said:

The carrer can do that damage with an auto drop - no aiming necessary. You can't angle against him.

 

You missed the part where I said, that you dodge GZ I's AP bombers by driving in a straight line, right? That was no joke. Montana going straight forward at max speed does remove a large portion of the bomb's potential hits, not to even talk about potential damage. The "angling" you "can't" do against carriers, are called speed-alterations and maneuvering. In other words, to have a really effective drop, your target must be brain-dead, because you need a manual drop.

Oh and try avoiding damage against ship-artillery by staying close to other ships. Staying in a group is ridiculously effective against air attacks. Ignoring that option and pretending you don't have anything to defend against an air attack is ludicrous.

 

2 hours ago, Jaegaer said:

He also can spot/permaspot most ships he comes across.

 

Um, no. AA-defense is absurdly effective at the higher tiers and it only gets worse with the recent additions and changes to the game. You can not keep a lot of targets spotted, if there's anything around that has AA. Part of why GZ is so shit is, precisely because it can not spot reliably.

 

2 hours ago, Jaegaer said:

Also you could have just as well done 100k damage or 10k.

 

No, I couldn't. The 32k is a best-case scenario for attacking a US battleship with AP bombs. He was alone, had clearly no AA-spec going on and didn't even evade effectively. I hit him where it hurts him the most with a manual drop. That is just how AP bombs work. Any more effective than that, and I would have to target german battleships or certain ships with an exposed citadel or german-like deck armor.

 

2 hours ago, Jaegaer said:

This is what needs to be adressed and thats not "why Cvs can't have nice things."

There are barely any CVs being played at all in this game. You can not adress this issue by trumpeting on how CVs are broken and OP, obviously. Plus, the lack of CVs is upsetting the entire meta in the game. First you had torpedo-soup, then you had smoke-meta and in the background always brewing along, the BB-meta. Every larger change in the game's mechanics in the recent year is a direct result of the lack of CVs in the game. It's laughable to even think of how deep water torpedoes, AP bombs and drop delays are going to solve any of this.

 

 

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It's almost like CV's are blocked from WG's CW right now because spotting is so powerful...

Can't wait for the vision/AA overhaul that is supposedly coming.

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The problem isn't that CV's are OP or UP. It's that there is a huge difference between a CV played by good players and one played by average or even bad players. It's almost a guaranteed loss if the average or bad player is on your side and the good player is on the other side.

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17 hours ago, MntRunner said:

The problem isn't that CV's are OP or UP.

No, thats exactly the problem. CVs are absurdly OP (at least as top tier, aka always in competitive). They can spot every ship on the enemy team and thus they invalidate a huge amount of tactics. They can onehit/severaly cripple almost every lone ship, making flanking impossible and matches where one team can not field a CV are predetermined.

17 hours ago, MntRunner said:

huge difference between a CV played by good players and one played by average or even bad players

Yes, because CVs are not only hugely OP, but they also have a skill cap thats through the roof.

21 hours ago, Madner Kami said:

that you dodge GZ I's AP bombers by driving in a straight line

Manual drop magically follows the target so that the onset time is not a factor.

The rest is basically a function of a tier VIII CV in a tier X match. A Hakuryu has absolutely no problem of keeping a DM or Mino spotted if thats what it takes - esepecially after the visibility changes. A GZ has absolutely no problems of keeping a Bismarck spotted.

But, yes, a GZ has problems if he doesn't react fast enough after flying into a fully AA specced Minotaur killzone and AA mechanics are borked (just as well as spotting and manual/auto drop is) and this is what WG works on and in the meantime it sucks.

21 hours ago, Madner Kami said:

are barely any CVs being played at all in this game

No? There are barely high tier Cvs played. Around Tier VI there is a CV in almost every match and often even two - at least on EU.

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7 hours ago, Jaegaer said:

No, thats exactly the problem. CVs are absurdly OP (at least as top tier, aka always in competitive). They can spot every ship on the enemy team and thus they invalidate a huge amount of tactics. They can onehit/severaly cripple almost every lone ship, making flanking impossible and matches where one team can not field a CV are predetermined.

I have no words to describe your retardation if you think CVs are good in comp because of their strike capability. Tier 8 is the most played competitive tier and 3/1/1 Shoukaku is taken as the CV of choice. You only get 1 TB squad so killing DDs early isn't possible and 1DB squad means you aren't a major threat with DoT bleeding. The reason CV is taken in comp is for vision. Having air superiority establishes vision easier, which is why AS loadouts are taken.

My thoughts on the new GZ (version 3 or 4?) is that it's still a broken ship. It's far too effective vs BBs and not only that, it's inconsistent. I watched Fara drop a Tirpitz with the AP bombers for like 9k and then hit another one for like 30k. It makes no sense. The DW TBs are just not good. You already have the AP bombs, it's like drowning pancakes in syrup, you can have too much of something. The single fighter squad is pretty cool though, it just needs more ammo capacity and slightly lower strafe dmg. Ship still is absolute crap though. Completely broken in terms of effectiveness. It needs to be less extreme.

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6 hours ago, Madner Kami said:

Wow, dude, tone it down. No reason to get personal.

It's ok if you don't know what you're talking about. But if you try and pass it off as legitimate evidence, I have no mercy. I honestly can't think of a single reason why you would bring 2/2/2 Shoukaku or strike Lexington (eww). Perhaps he's trying to point towards pubs, where it is possible to DoT bleed/alpha strike some ships. In that case I agree, but there is no way on this Earth that a comp player is going to be killed by 1 lone TB squad (unless suffering from prior injuries). Being killed by a DB squad is even more unlikely (unless attacking a DD). Perhaps I simply took the entire paragraph to be from a competitive angle whereas it may have transitioned from comp to pubs.

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On ‎23‎.‎11‎.‎2017 at 0:21 AM, Sgt. Pepper said:

I have no words to describe your retardation if you think CVs are good in comp because of their strike capability.

What was the FIRST thing I said? Well, lets see:

On ‎22‎.‎11‎.‎2017 at 4:27 PM, Jaegaer said:

They can spot every ship on the enemy team and thus they invalidate a huge amount of tactics

Oh, ok. So you call me retarded and then refute an argument I NEVER MADE? Classy.

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On 11/22/2017 at 10:27 AM, Jaegaer said:

They can onehit/severaly cripple almost every lone ship, making flanking impossible and matches where one team can not field a CV are predetermined.

I was specifically replying to the first part of this sentence. Yes, they severely cripple ships in pub matches, SPECIFICALLY because of their loadouts. I could (and still can not) tell if you were referring to pubs/comp and assumed comp. My thoughts on competitive CV strikes have already been addressed so I won't go into the details again.

I will do my due diligence (I specifically didn't reply to the vision-based portion because I didn't see anything wrong with your assessment) and address the vision of CVs. I do agree that CVs need changed for spotting. I don't think air-spotting should go away and think that lone wolf plays should be discouraged.

I think air-spotting should stay because camping islands is fucking stupid and really slow-paced (however, planes and AA should be subject to the effects of islands. Meaning that planes no longer have x-ray vision and AA should not go through islands, it's simply illogical and makes no sense from a gameplay and historical perspective. It's really bizarre and unintuitive because the rest of the game is built around being able to visually see that it creates a weird exception to the rules that makes the game harder to learn for no discernible reason. You also would not be able to spot planes through islands (they must enter LoS of the ship, just like traditional spotting mechanics)).

Lone-wolf/flank tactics should also be discouraged, because, while they are certainly exciting, it is still a team based game. By allowing lone-wolf tactics, you let one player go off and distract the main fleet. That's kind of silly, as it's against the whole premise of the game. Even in CS: GO (the closest counterpart to this game that still has a competitive scene), 1 player plays are extremely uncommon because damage is so high in comparison to HP (I think the AK/AR 1-shot headshot or 2-shot headshot with armor/helmet or whatever, 30 rounds in mag total). WoWs is different because the game doesn't display exactly what you're seeing, so there could be a DD or CA somewhere, you just can't know. It also tends to be that the ship that gets spotted trying to flank is in open water, where solid cover is not a luxury. I'm opposed to this because it creates emphasis on one player's positioning, as opposed to one player's shooting(which can create a massive change in battles, what with BBs being the greatest example of 1 salvo changing a matchup). I'm in favor of shooting because it's easier for someone to watch somebody get devstriked and say "Wow, now that's a lot of damage" as opposed to simply watching somebody sail away from the fleet distracting others. At the end of the day, I feel like one player's shooting is more important than positioning because it's easier to watch from a spectator's point of view, which is what a sport is about.

I hope that I've covered all my bases and also sincerely hope you don't think that 3/1/2 Shoukaku has too much strike power (which it doesn't sound like you have a problem with).

My opinion on the Graf Zeppelin has already been stated above and I see no need to repeat what has already been said.

Edit: I forgot the Shoukaku gets 3/1/2 for AS, however, my opinion on this doesn't change in regards to early DD hunting and strike potential. 1 additional DB means that you can scout with it if need be and generally doesn't make the ship fantastic at killing much.

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Give ships that are supposed to be flanker-types defensive air fire. Remove DFAA from fleet-type ships and buff AA reasonably on ships that need it (which are surprisingly few imo) or, alternatively, keep DFAA on any ship you want but make it distraction-effect only (and limit duration so that smaller groups can't keep it up indefinitly). Everybody wins.

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9 hours ago, Madner Kami said:

Give ships that are supposed to be flanker-types defensive air fire. Remove DFAA from fleet-type ships and buff AA reasonably on ships that need it (which are surprisingly few imo) or, alternatively, keep DFAA on any ship you want but make it distraction-effect only (and limit duration so that smaller groups can't keep it up indefinitly). Everybody wins.

That will generally only work to stop strikes. Flanking ships are usually going to be in the open, where you don't even need to strike a ship to kill it (since a majority of your team will simply turn their guns and focus it down) so you will just hover a plane outside the AA range and then your team kills it. The only real exception to this would be Akizuki, which is one of the few (if only) ships that can fire their AA while unspotted (which WG wants to get rid of). Then, to make that distraction play, you have to open up with your guns (unless you're torpedo-boating around the map, which generally will only work as long as people don't recognize that a ship has been unspotted for a long time).

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Not to mention that if you're flanking torp boat style, you've become damn near useless as soon as you get spotted by anything, let alone the CV.  It's actually worse when its a CV because then your torps are spotted by the CV as well.  

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On ‎25‎.‎11‎.‎2017 at 3:59 AM, Sgt. Pepper said:

the Shoukaku

Where is this tier VIII competitive mode that I missed? AFAIK CW is the only competitive right now and it's tier X. A Hakuryu will cripple any lone ship short of a full AA specced Des Moines regardless of setup.

On ‎25‎.‎11‎.‎2017 at 3:59 AM, Sgt. Pepper said:

Lone-wolf/flank tactics should also be discouraged

Sorry, not my opinion at all. Less number of viable tactics is almost always bad. In the current CW you see a rush for the off cap with one DD and a fast Cruisers often, this would be impossible with CVs around. All ships clumping up every damn battle would be super boring.

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