Liberty75

Hopefully Strict Template MM Will Die Soon

67 posts in this topic

Ever since I started researching and comparing the previous MM with the current MM, it seems more and more obvious that strict templates, like our current 3/5/7, 5/10, and all the same tier matches, need to be removed. I have campaigned hard in the NA forums, posted an article here in the early stages of my efforts, and recently spent time on the EU forums. My foreign language skills are non-existent so I am unable to communicate on the RU and SEA platforms. Aside from replying to posts and the occasional fact check on people when they claim odd things, I think this is the end of the road for the campaign. The only other thing I can think of now is to use google translate and send an actual snail mail letter to the WG HQ. I just fear it would read something like this: "Containers need to be evenly given out at different floors so the game has more options," and they will just scratch their heads. Withstanding that, I can only hope that WG will remove these strict template matches soon and restore a match system that has as much variety and interest as the previous system with a few balancing tweaks.

I am still optimistic that they will change it overall. The NA Forums are mixed with players of different opinions, but WG tends to ignore the NA server anyway. Here on the now quiet WotLabs, players seem indifferent to the current MM. I'm guessing that is because this community has a high level of skill and easily adapts to the changes and some may even like that it is easier to farm damage under the current system. But again, I don't know if WG monitors this forum frequently. On the EU forums, there seems to be a super-majority of players that want the MM removed. That is a good sign. They have a population WG respects and I get the feeling that their forum admins have good communication with the parent company and that those sentiments will be passed along. The recent spat of content creators criticizing the MM is also heartening.

Before I scale back, I'd like to post the information that I have gathered over the past few months, some charts that go along with it in case anyone wants to use them for their own efforts or information, and some sentiments to tie up any loose ends.

When I gathered information about the old MM to compare to the new MM I was a little surprised at how wrong my memory was when it came to bottom tier matches. I could have sworn my bottom tier matches would have been more challenging than what I was looking at in my research under the old system. Since I was only looking at 100 games at first, I figured the sample wasn't big enough and it was skewed. Then as I gathered another 100 games from my own replays, and then 200 more games from my friend, I began to see a pattern and that in fact my memory was wrong. As I contemplated this I then remembered that our memories and perceptions are faulty. We tend to recall outstanding events more than common events. So while I was playing thousands of games, the best or the worst matches were the ones that would stand out the most in my mind. This is probably why so many players are paranoid about being in a small group of bottom tier tanks, when in reality it didn't happen that often.

Another thing that became visible to me from doing this research was that we formerly had a cornucopia of different match-ups. In that 400 game sample, there were 114 unique matches. Now that number would be smaller with the new light tank system that we have today, but it would still be much MUCH more than what we have in our current set of three strict templates (3/5/7, etc.). The variety of games and balance of top, middle, and bottom tier matches stands out like a beacon of excitement compared to the drab experience we are left with presently. Once you become conscious of these things, it is hard not to notice them. I was smacked in the face with reality and have cursed myself with this knowledge and I apologize for ruining anyone else's perception of the the game now. That isn't my general intention. My goal is to have this MM changed back to what it was, or something similar to what it was as had been proposed on the NA and EU forums.

For anyone that wants this information, here is a link to the google doc where I transferred it. It is a copy of the pertinent information from my excel spreadsheets, and while I am confident that the main part is correct, there could be an error or two at the bottom with the layout of matches. The figures above them are correct, but I am not checking the 400 different matches to make sure I copied every single one correctly. So forgive me if there is an error there. IF there is an error, the chart above the matches is correct and I miscopied the match(s) below it. Please note the difference in top tier matches between me and Macduff48 under the current system. He platoons a lot. For the periods I gathered from myself, I rarely platooned. Together, they give a decent rough average for most players in the game whether they platoon or not. Partial top or bottom tier matches refers to 5/10 matches or +1/-1 matches in the old MM. For a more specific description of the data collection, see "The Case Against the 3/5/7 Match Maker" article. I updated it recently and I hope I converted all the numbers correctly. If something doesn't make sense, please let me know.

The impetus for starting this research was to see how many top tier tanks were in matches because players kept telling me the old MM was full of games with enormous amounts of top tier tanks. From there it grew to other things, but you will see the top tier tank emphasis in there.

Here are the charts I created with the information to make it easier for people to understand the information. Feel free to copy them for your own use.

 

First, here is a general comparison followed by a more specific comparison of the frequency of Top, Middle, and Bottom tier matches.
The "partial bottom" for the old MM was included in the Middle Tier numbers on the first chart.

01 General Comparison between Old and New MM.jpg

 

02 Player Position Frequency between Old and New MM.jpg

 

Here are two graphics on top tier tanks in matches overall, and then with the
percent that players were bottom tier in that range out of all of their games.

03 Frequency of Top Tier Tanks in a Match.jpg

 

04 Frequency Top Tier Tanks and bottom tiers in those matches.jpg

 

Here are some charts that show the amount of bottom tier tanks in the bottom tier matches from the sample studied.
The first one is the raw numbers from the 114 bottom tier matches and the second one is the percent of those raw numbers.

05 Number Bottom Tier Matches.jpg

 

06 Percent Bottom Tier.jpg

 

This last graphic was created to show the drastic decline in variety. Perhaps it isn't as important, but I will include it anyway.

07 Unique Matches.jpg

 

Thank you for your patience if you made it this far. No matter which side of the debate you were on, all civil input was appreciated.

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I like the new mm personally. Being bottom tier is not a big deal when half the tanks are same tier as you. Being bottom tier is a big deal when 10+ tanks on each side are 2 tiers higher; which is what my tier 8s experienced with the old mm.

Like I've said in previous posts, my tier 8s during 3 mark runs on old mm experienced over 90% battles as bottom tiers in tier 10 matches, with more than half of the matches having at least 8, often 10+ tier 10 vehicles per side.

The only people this new mm screwed over are platoons. Platoons in the old mm are far more likely to end up in a top tier position. Platoons in the current mm are almost certainly bottom tier. But I'm a solopubber so.. it benefited me xD

---------------

The serious old mm issue was a problem specific to NA west, and no other server (not even NA east). The server had a very low population, and was extremely top heavy in tier 10s; resulting in tier 8s and 9s being almost always drafted into tier 10 matches. A huge number of tier 10 matches were made of 8 - 10 tier 10s per side, with a handful of scouts and tier 8/9 as "fillers".

With NA server being merged, this top heavy issue probably wouldn't be nearly that bad if we are to revert to the old mm.

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Bottom tier is not a big personal concern of mine. It is for most average and new players though. The one thing that kills this strict template system is the total lack of variety in the game. It is becoming more repetitive than it needs to be.

Some people like grey houses with white walls. I like a little color in my life. :epicsaxguy:

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My issue is queue times.

 

Even with the server merge, queue times are still quite long, especially for platoons. That needs to be remedied IMO.

 

The second issue, is it needs to balance the number of heavies/meds. Giving one team heavies and one team meds never makes a fair game. It should at least even the team comps out so both teams are equal in classes.

 

Oh also they really need to make it so that arty is equal again. One team getting arty and the other team not is dumb. 

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2 hours ago, Assassin7 said:

My issue is queue times.

 

Even with the server merge, queue times are still quite long, especially for platoons. That needs to be remedied IMO.

 

The second issue, is it needs to balance the number of heavies/meds. Giving one team heavies and one team meds never makes a fair game. It should at least even the team comps out so both teams are equal in classes.

 

Oh also they really need to make it so that arty is equal again. One team getting arty and the other team not is dumb. 

Unless you're playing at 3am I have noticed no issues with queue times. Even with platoons I am matched within 30 seconds. 

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4 minutes ago, Grister said:

Unless you're playing at 3am I have noticed no issues with queue times. Even with platoons I am matched within 30 seconds. 

Guess when Im playing... :-/

At least 2 minute queue times are better than 7 minute queue times i guess.

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The whole purpose of *new* mm compared to *old* mm was to make it:

3-5-7, so:

  • 3/15 = 20% top tier
  • 5/15 = 33% middle tier
  • 7/15 = 47% bottom tier

Problem on US server is most likely that there are not enough middle tier tanks / too many tryhards in tier 10 tanks, which skew the mm

My main problems with *new mm* are:

  1. When you platoon, you never top tier, like NEVER, and when you platoon tier 10, you get 80% of the games only tier 10 (also due to high % of new game mode)
  2. MM is boring, many games have the same set up (more or less) trow in the fact some tanks are far more popular, and you get many games which seem the same

Old mm had many flaws, but its biggest advantage was: no 2 games where ever the same in regards to tank set ups (only on tier 10, during the TD madness it was a bit boring tank-wise)

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I gave the new MM a chance, but I do have to agree that the matches seems even more samey and stale than they did before due to nearly identical team/tier comps put together by MM. I was on board with the result they were hoping for, but I dont think it panned out like I wanted.

Old MM with some fixes would be better, absolutely. The only thing that keeps World of Corridor Maps somewhat varied was the amount of unique situations the MM could force onto you.

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The insanity comes from trying to grind credits at tier 8 for me. Trying to play tier 9 game after tier 9 game with a slow, undergunned tank which has armor that doesn't bounce 250+ pen guns is not fun. 

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I have no issues at all with the 3/5/7 format, far prefer it to the old "you\re the only T8 in the game, but look at all the T10's you have to shoot at" but I do think MM could be improved by having the same number of heavies/meds as top tier.  Having one team get a Leo and Centurion, vs the other team's Type 5 and Maus on Paris is rarely fun.

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I thought we were supposed to be getting into 30v30 battles to take the pressure off of the tier 8s a little?  I've played a lot of tier Xs since the patch and Ive been in 2 GBs, one of which was when my clan did a 15 tier X super drop after a CW battle.  

Other than tier 8, I actually like the new MM mostly, but tier 8 ruins it.  A lot of my real money investment in this game has been at tier 8 and WG has made it pretty unplayable.

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13 hours ago, Assassin7 said:

My issue is queue times.

 

Even with the server merge, queue times are still quite long, especially for platoons. That needs to be remedied IMO.

wow, you're still having that issue. I remember you upset about this months ago. You posted screenshots of the times, IIRC.

 

6 hours ago, GehakteMolen said:

My main problems with *new mm* are:

  1. When you platoon, you never top tier, like NEVER, and when you platoon tier 10, you get 80% of the games only tier 10 (also due to high % of new game mode)
  2. MM is boring, many games have the same set up (more or less) trow in the fact some tanks are far more popular, and you get many games which seem the same

Old mm had many flaws, but its biggest advantage was: no 2 games where ever the same in regards to tank set ups (only on tier 10, during the TD madness it was a bit boring tank-wise)

Exactly. WG is trying to bore us into playing something else. Strict templates were a bad idea on so many different levels.

1. bad for new players

2. bad for weak players

2. bad balance of matches (top, middle, bottom)

3. overly repetitive

4. destroyed gameplay in multiple tiers, but especially tier 8

5. obsoleted preferential MM premium tanks

 

2 hours ago, Archaic_One said:

I thought we were supposed to be getting into 30v30 battles to take the pressure off of the tier 8s a little?  I've played a lot of tier Xs since the patch and Ive been in 2 GBs, one of which was when my clan did a 15 tier X super drop after a CW battle.  

Other than tier 8, I actually like the new MM mostly, but tier 8 ruins it.  A lot of my real money investment in this game has been at tier 8 and WG has made it pretty unplayable.

Some of the balancing factors are okay, but I agree, overall it is a bad system. As soon as they put a band aid on and fix tier 8, then tier 6 will become even more of a nightmare for people. No matter how they tweak it, some tier gets screwed and there is also nothing WG can do to make it more entertaining. It lacks the vibrant variety and balance of match positions (top, middle, bottom) of the previous MM.

I put together a compromise MM, in which it retains a high degree of variety and keeps many of the balancing factors some players like. I linked to it in the first post, but since some of you don't want to soil yourselves by going on the NA forums, I will re-post it here:

 

SOLUTION FOR A BETTER MATCHMAKER

Revert back to a random matchmaker, such as existed before the 9.18 Update (+2/-2), that includes vehicles from a 3 tier group of tanks (example: tiers 5, 6, and 7 would be gathered together for a battle) and uses some sort of weight or identifier system to place tanks evenly on teams, with a few extra restrictions on the MM for lower tiers.

Included in this system would be mechanisms to ensure that:

  1. teams would have the same amount of tanks per tier of top, middle, and bottom;
  2. teams will have similar amounts of tank types per each tier with a +1/-1 differential, and a +1/-1 differential per team overall. This means the same amount of TDs, Mediums, etc., with one difference allowed;
  3. platoons will be placed as close to the same tier level as possible when teams are created or the inferior team will get two (2) lower tier level platoons to counter a top tier platoon on the enemy team;
  4. tanks of similar attributes will be identified with each other in the weight/identifier database and placed evenly on both teams at the same tier level (for example, the Bat.-Châtillon 25t and the TVP T 50/51 will both be identified as a medium AND an autoloader so each team has them placed evenly);
  5. the MM will attempt to create all Tier I tank battles first, and only have up to six (6) Tier II tanks per match if it cannot create an all the same tier battle for them;
  6. Tier II and Tier III tanks have +1/-1 matchmaking;
  7. an option in the Settings panel above Grand Battles will allow players to have the MM try to create all same tier matches for them at any tier.
  8. some of the above rules will be relaxed when server populations are low to cut down on wait times.

Since the previous MM was a random system that included some of the currently proposed options, it is realistic to believe that this is in the realm of possibility to be developed by WG. This system takes the rich variety and balance in top, middle, and bottom tier matches and combines them with the balancing factors introduced in the current MM. Some of the general balancing factors are that teams would be created with the same amount of tanks per tier and tank types would be similar on each team. The +1/-1 differential in tank types is for a greater variety of situations in our matches that some players enjoy and also to help maintain a speedy match creation while at the same time making sure that teams are pretty evenly laid out against each other. Platoons would also be distributed as evenly as possible or a team will be compensated to ward off advantages a top tier platoon may have over a bottom tier platoon.

The weight or tank database identifier system (for lack of better terms) would be a three (3) level system. Tanks would be identified:

  • First by TIER,
  • Second by CLASS, and
  • Third by CHARACTERISTICS within its class.

Tanks would be pulled for matches based on these identifiers in the order listed above. It could even be tailored to have tanks of different classes (heavy, medium, etc), but similar characteristics (autoloader), distributed as evenly as possible as a secondary feature. For example, the AMX 50 B and the TVP T 50/51 are both autoloaders and could be used to fill that +1/-1 differential in class if available to keep the teams as close as possible.

Overall, here is an example of how a match may look:

GREEN TEAM                                             RED TEAM

Maus                                                            Type 5 Heavy
AMX 50B                                                       T57 Heavy
Obj. 62a       (Platoon 1)                               Obj. 140
B-C 25t         (Platoon 1)                               TVP 50/51
Skoda 50t                                                      AMX 50 120      
Tortoise                                                         T95
AMX 30                                                          E 50          (Platoon 1)
WZ-120                                                         T-54           (Platoon 1)
T49                                                                Ru 251
IS-3                                                                IS-3           (Platoon 2)
T34                                                               Tiger II        (Platoon 2)
Jagdpanther II                                               SU-101
Pershing                                                       T28 Prot.    (Platoon 2)
T-44-100                                                       STA-2
WZ-132                                                         LTTB

This system gives players most of what they want in team balance while at the same time it still provides a high degree of variety and interest from battle to battle. This proposed MM would satisfy the main concerns of most of the player base. I'm sure there would be tweaks here and there to make it better, but this is just a rough draft of a better system for most players.

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Why can't we do what Circon has advocated for and move to 5/10 1 tier spread?

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Speaking for myself and I suspect others, WoT is repetitive by nature (random battle after random battle, etc.). What helps keep players interested is the variety of vehicles and also the matches they play in. They have been slowly making vehicles similar to each other and now with this MM WG  has striped away the variety in our match-ups. 5/10 and all the same tier sound novel at first, but eventually they get dull because they are overly repetitive. People lose interest when the experience gets repetitious. In the graph I put last above, while it really isn't necessary, it highlights that in two 400 match samples the new MM put players in the same three setups (3/5/7, 5/10. etc.) game after game. While the previous more random MM in 400 matches produced 114 unique setups. The new system is very predictable and the random system had an element of subconscious excitement to it as you analyzed the teams when the match loaded to see what you got.

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4 hours ago, Archaic_One said:

I thought we were supposed to be getting into 30v30 battles to take the pressure off of the tier 8s a little?  I've played a lot of tier Xs since the patch and Ive been in 2 GBs, one of which was when my clan did a 15 tier X super drop after a CW battle.  

Other than tier 8, I actually like the new MM mostly, but tier 8 ruins it.  A lot of my real money investment in this game has been at tier 8 and WG has made it pretty unplayable.

I haven't had a single grand battle since they were available with the latest patch on the NA server.  I think they are a myth.  Several other members of my clan who play almost all tier 10s never got into a grand battle so far also.

I've noticed with the new matchmaking that tier 8 tanks are screwed over.  Pre 9.18 tier 8 tanks were top tier 38-43% of the time depending on what patch you look at.  Post 9.18, tier 8 tanks are top tier 24% of the time during prime time when ranked battles are going on and 17-21% of the time at other times of the day.  It has hurt my credit income when I have to fire more premium ammo.  Also, you are more dependent on your tier 10's not being complete idiots.  Nothing like your Maus and Type 5 heavy going valley on Lakeville when the enemy team has two SPGs and  a bunch of tier 9 TDs leaving tier 8 heavies to fight their tier 10 heavies elsewhere.

6 hours ago, Canadian_Reaper said:

I have no issues at all with the 3/5/7 format, far prefer it to the old "you\re the only T8 in the game, but look at all the T10's you have to shoot at" but I do think MM could be improved by having the same number of heavies/meds as top tier.  Having one team get a Leo and Centurion, vs the other team's Type 5 and Maus on Paris is rarely fun.

I noticed when I looked through old screenshots and replays that the "Only tier 8 in the battle with a bunch of tier 10s" or "One of only a few tier 8s in the battle with a bunch of tier 10s was actually a rare occurrence in the old matchmaking.  It usually only happened during times of very low server population.

16 hours ago, Assassin7 said:

The second issue, is it needs to balance the number of heavies/meds. Giving one team heavies and one team meds never makes a fair game. It should at least even the team comps out so both teams are equal in classes.

I've seen it happen way too often with the new matchmaking where one teams gets 10 mediums and the other team gets 10 heavies on a city map.  Who do you think will win?  The team with the HP and armor advantage on the corridor map or the team with much less HP and less armor.  Most pubbies aren't smart enough to sue the mobility to their advantage.

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1 hour ago, Bavor said:

I noticed when I looked through old screenshots and replays that the "Only tier 8 in the battle with a bunch of tier 10s" or "One of only a few tier 8s in the battle with a bunch of tier 10s was actually a rare occurrence in the old matchmaking.  It usually only happened during times of very low server population.

That is in my article, "The Case Against The 3/5/7 Match Maker." In the 400 match sample I had from the old MM, not a single game as a single bottom tier. It happens, because those matches were out there, so eventually you will be the single tank. But the frequency of it happening was less then a quarter of one percent (< 0.25%). Even if it did happen a little more, you would think the population on these forums would love those games because of all the damage they could farm.

:money:

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21 hours ago, Archaic_One said:

I thought we were supposed to be getting into 30v30 battles to take the pressure off of the tier 8s a little?  I've played a lot of tier Xs since the patch and Ive been in 2 GBs, one of which was when my clan did a 15 tier X super drop after a CW battle.  

Other than tier 8, I actually like the new MM mostly, but tier 8 ruins it.  A lot of my real money investment in this game has been at tier 8 and WG has made it pretty unplayable.

Does not seem to work too well, Something like 70% of my solo IS7 games last days been full t10 matches. Which probably means everyone is playing t10 tanks, more and more. Though as always, depends time of day lot. Daytime/early night sealclub t8 tanks, late night almost every match is full t10.

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T8 2-3 man platoon is guaranteed bottom tier, and after some time it gets really annoying. At first, i welcomed this 3/5/7 but with more and more games (safe shot saved me) T8 really sucks dick. 

 

With some tanks, you can still contribute but with some shit box you can't past frontlines to their actual meat. I would say it's so "RNG mm". Class balancing is good for missions, but sometimes it's crap with 10 TDs per side or 5 LTs.  

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I hear you BlackAdder. I was pretty much neutral to the 3/5/7 system at first too. The more I played and the more I learned about it and the old system it replaced, the more apparent it became that this current MM is bad for the game.

When you break it down the current MM didn't really give us anything valuable or worth keeping. It was never truly tested before it was implemented, and now that we have about 5 months of real play-testing, it is ultimately a failure.

WG needs to remove it.

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I think the players that are hurt the most with the new MM are the new and less experienced. And those are the people that WG needs to pamper in order to grow, and they are doing quite the opposite. 

 

To be honest, I  benefit more from the new MM, since i play high tiers only and almost all is solo. Tier 9 is a dream come true nowdays :) . I didn't actually bother, but I can check quickly what was the spread of my top/bottom tier games. I have very detailed records of more than 5k of my matches.

 

P.S. if any of you are using WoTNumbers, and are willing to share, I can easily integrate your data as well into QlikView for some really fancy statistics :)

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3 hours ago, 3MAJ86 said:

I think the players that are hurt the most with the new MM are the new and less experienced. And those are the people that WG needs to pamper in order to grow, and they are doing quite the opposite. 

I'm still on my first (easiest) T8 grind, IS-3 - it gets pretty old almost always seeing Maus/etc and so I've slowed down a lot on the T-10 grind. I can only imagine the hellish experience of playing something like Tiger 2 (have it unlocked, confirmed never fucking touching it now) and other left-behind tanks.

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Having completed the Tiger 2 grind in the current setting I can confirm it is as enjoyable as masturbating with a cheese grater. 

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2 hours ago, Sapros said:

Having completed the Tiger 2 grind in the current setting I can confirm it is as enjoyable as masturbating with a cheese grater. 

Jeeze! Oh man! I have to admit, sometimes I almost fall out of my chair laughing at these comments. :)

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6 hours ago, 3MAJ86 said:

I think the players that are hurt the most with the new MM are the new and less experienced. And those are the people that WG needs to pamper in order to grow, and they are doing quite the opposite. 

 

To be honest, I  benefit more from the new MM, since i play high tiers only and almost all is solo. Tier 9 is a dream come true nowdays :) . I didn't actually bother, but I can check quickly what was the spread of my top/bottom tier games. I have very detailed records of more than 5k of my matches.

 

P.S. if any of you are using WoTNumbers, and are willing to share, I can easily integrate your data as well into QlikView for some really fancy statistics :)

Do you have games from before April 2017?

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