Liberty75

Hopefully Strict Template MM Will Die Soon

49 posts in this topic

yes. I have the data from september last year, all until now. There are few "holes" in data, since with every new patch, for a few days, WoTNumbers doesn't work. 

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15 minutes ago, 3MAJ86 said:

yes. I have the data from september last year, all until now. There are few "holes" in data, since with every new patch, for a few days, WoTNumbers doesn't work. 

Are you able to look at the spread in matches between top, middle, and bottom tier matches in tiers 5 to 8? Or something close to that from before April 2017? I'm curious to see how the old MM was on the EU server.

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I checked, since i play only high tiers, it is limited to tier 8 only. 

 

I played 1108 matches in tier 8 tanks (randoms, standard only) from 5th of Sept. 2016 until 31. March 2017.

Out of those, i was:

top tier 461 (42%)

mid tier 370 (33%)

low tier 277 (25%)

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Posted (edited)

4 hours ago, 3MAJ86 said:

I checked, since i play only high tiers, it is limited to tier 8 only. 

 

I played 1108 matches in tier 8 tanks (randoms, standard only) from 5th of Sept. 2016 until 31. March 2017.

Out of those, i was:

top tier 461 (42%)

mid tier 370 (33%)

low tier 277 (25%)

Very interesting numbers. That is incredible. Can you do the same for tiers 6 and 7?

 

And thank you for doing this!

Edited by Liberty75

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no, since i don't play those tiers. Total number of matches in those tiers are less than 100, so the small sample is statistically insignificant.

 

Sorry :( 

 

If anyone is interested, i can make a data dump, so you can do with it whatever you want. I made pretty neat dashboard in QlikView by using WoTNumbers database. The only problem is, if WoTNumbers stops updating, all my work becomes useless :) 

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2 hours ago, 3MAJ86 said:

no, since i don't play those tiers. Total number of matches in those tiers are less than 100, so the small sample is statistically insignificant.

 

Sorry :( 

 

If anyone is interested, i can make a data dump, so you can do with it whatever you want. I made pretty neat dashboard in QlikView by using WoTNumbers database. The only problem is, if WoTNumbers stops updating, all my work becomes useless :) 

No problem. Thanks for the information you provided. I don't know if you can manipulate your data for one last thing. Out of the tier 8 bottom tier matches, can you identify how many top tier tanks were in those matches? (Ex. 1 top tier = 3%, 2 = 7%, etc.). And also how many bottom tier tanks were in your matches when you were bottom tier in the same way? So this information should only be coming from your 25% bottom tier matches.

 

From the data you collected so far I am guessing that bottom tier was a little more of a challenge in the previous MM, but you saw much less of it. In the games I took from me and my friend, we were both under 30% bottom tier matches, and that was with a spread of tiers in the sample. I thought it was a little strange. Now seeing your statistics, the pattern of less than 30% bottom tier matches continues. With the hard evidence presented and the known greater variety in the previous system, it is no wonder players enjoyed the game more back then.

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Yes, i can do that as well, although i will need to do some SQL magic :)

 

Is it ok to wait for this until the weekend? 

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12 hours ago, 3MAJ86 said:

Yes, i can do that as well, although i will need to do some SQL magic :)

 

Is it ok to wait for this until the weekend? 

Sure. Take your time. And thanks again!

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I wish I could give this post 10 likes.  The current 3 tier match making is killing the game.  Tier 8 tanks are almost impossible to play unless you just love getting hammered.

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Thank you for the nice comment. No one seems to love the current MM and many players dislike it for various reasons. If another two or three updates go by without WG addressing it though, I fear we the players that remain are stuck with it. :S

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On 10/4/2017 at 1:13 AM, Liberty75 said:

 

Sure. Take your time. And thanks again!

 

viKIePT.png

X-axis is the number of top tiers in battle. Above 10 are all zeroes, so i excluded them. So for example, i was never bottom tier in a battle when there was like 13 tier 10s and only 2 tier 8s :) 

I hope this is what you wanted :)

 

these are only my tier 8 matches (277 sample size) in period from 5th September 2016 until 31st of March this year. 

 

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1 hour ago, 3MAJ86 said:

 

viKIePT.png

X-axis is the number of top tiers in battle. Above 10 are all zeroes, so i excluded them. So for example, i was never bottom tier in a battle when there was like 13 tier 10s and only 2 tier 8s :) 

I hope this is what you wanted :)

 

these are only my tier 8 matches (277 sample size) in period from 5th September 2016 until 31st of March this year. 

 

This is perfect. Thank you very much for posting this!

 

While our figures differ on the 1 to 3 top tier tank numbers, they coincide on the middle of the bell curve that is created. I wonder if that is because one of us platooned more or because my sample has many 5, 6, and 7 tier matches included? In any case, it is irrelevant since the overwhelming evidence is that the old MM created the bulk of its matches with 4 or 5 top tier tanks in them (from both our samples). In a random system with three tiers present that would make logical sense too.

Would you mind if I post your chart on threads I have on the official forums, giving credit to you of course?

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Of course, feel free to use the chart :) 

 

Well i play mostly solo. I can check that as well, if it is important?

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2 hours ago, 3MAJ86 said:

Of course, feel free to use the chart :) 

 

Well i play mostly solo. I can check that as well, if it is important?

You don't need to check. If you played in platoons most of the time, you would remember that. If you did it a few times, it doesn't really make a difference. Thank you again for your information and the time it took you to put it together! I appreciate it!

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On 10/6/2017 at 11:41 PM, Liberty75 said:

Thank you for the nice comment. No one seems to love the current MM and many players dislike it for various reasons. If another two or three updates go by without WG addressing it though, I fear we the players that remain are stuck with it. :S

I like it, and so do a lot of people. IMO it's a lot better than what we used to have.  At tier IX I have no issue with any of the MM - one, two, or three level.   

Even at tier 8, where I'm rarely top tier, I'm fine as long as I have confidence in my tank.  The main issue is with tanks that can't do anything at all unless they're top tier.

I don't get the arguments against it, and I'm not hearing any viable alternatives.

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7 hours ago, swyck said:

I like it, and so do a lot of people. IMO it's a lot better than what we used to have.  At tier IX I have no issue with any of the MM - one, two, or three level.   

Even at tier 8, where I'm rarely top tier, I'm fine as long as I have confidence in my tank.  The main issue is with tanks that can't do anything at all unless they're top tier.

I don't get the arguments against it, and I'm not hearing any viable alternatives.

There are also a lot of people that don't like the 3/5/7 MM. Tiers 1, 2, 3, 9, and 10 seem to function adequately enough to be playable (and by playable, that doesn't mean ideal). Tiers 4 to 8, the chief grinding tiers, are the worst to play in now.

It would help if you explained why this current MM is a lot better than what we used to have. I've broken it down a few different ways, and in each way the current MM fails to outperform the previous version. The only part of the new MM that I generally support are the efforts to balance tanks on both teams, but that could have been implemented under the old system without a strict 3/5/7 template system, so it is really irrelevant to the argument.

Here is a viable alternative. Scroll down to Part III, the "SOLUTION:"
http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/551557-the-great-mm-debate-357-trash-or-triumph/page__pid__11152963#entry11152963

 

Edit: Here are two related comments just from today on the stickied EU Forum MM thread. If you go back into it, there are many, many, more. They already have 93 pages of comments on the new MM, mostly negative. There is a general frustration for many players that was created by this 3/5/7 system. New players, after tier 3, are especially savaged by this system. I introduced a friend to the game back in the late spring and after about 2 months he quite. He essentially blamed the MM indirectly. He told me he got tired of feeling under-powered compared to the enemy team. He felt that way because he was playing the middle tiers and he was constantly bottom tier while grinding those vehicles.

Quote

Playing with my T-34-85M I am in more than 90% of battles in bottom tier facing to tanks litk Lowe, IS-6... 

Is it normal and is these rule for every T-34-85M or is this only my case?

 

Quote

I really couldn't imagine how bad MM is right now.

Just before summer I wanted to quite from WoT, because randoms were unplayable.

Somehow, because I was bored, I kept playing SH, which brings me to current point.

I wanted to grind AT15. It is impossible. Tiers 8 are unplayable. If WG would have any brain they would fire into space all developers responsible for balance and MM.

Today I played 5 games on brand new, full stock AT15 -> 4 games on tiers 10, 1 game on tiers 8, all games lost. Teams red as soviet flag and smart as wg developers.

That is well balanced game, when you have tank, which is moving 20km/h and has 171 penetration and you need to fight against well balanced Mauses...

Every single random battle, especially on tier 8, explains to me why WoT is loosing tens of thousands of players every year. Soon you'll need to eat dry bread, because instead of fixing MM and balance, which is core of the game, you are creating new, crap, unbalanced game modes. Players doesn't want them, we just want balanced game and fair MM...

 

 

Edited by Liberty75

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1 hour ago, Liberty75 said:

There are also a lot of people that don't like the 3/5/7 MM. Tiers 1, 2, 3, 9, and 10 seem to function adequately enough to be playable (and by playable, that doesn't mean ideal). Tiers 4 to 8, the chief grinding tiers, are the worst to play in now.

It would help if you explained why this current MM is a lot better than what we used to have. I've broken it down a few different ways, and in each way the current MM fails to outperform the previous version. The only part of the new MM that I generally support are the efforts to balance tanks on both teams, but that could have been implemented under the old system without a strict 3/5/7 template system, so it is really irrelevant to the argument.

Here is a viable alternative. Scroll down to Part III, the "SOLUTION:"
http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/551557-the-great-mm-debate-357-trash-or-triumph/page__pid__11152963#entry11152963

Edit: Here are two related comments just from today on the stickied EU Forum MM thread. If you go back into it, there are many, many, more. They already have 93 pages of comments on the new MM, mostly negative. There is a general frustration for many players that was created by this 3/5/7 system. New players, after tier 3, are especially savaged by this system. I introduced a friend to the game back in the late spring and after about 2 months he quite. He essentially blamed the MM indirectly. He told me he got tired of feeling under-powered compared to the enemy team. He felt that way because he was playing the middle tiers and he was constantly bottom tier while grinding those vehicles.

The problem, as you have alluded to here, is defining good, bad, "playable", "ideal" "outperform", balanced MM. There are lots of players that dislike the template MM, there are lots that like the template MM, and some that just dont care either way.  I would postulate that even if we flipped the 3/5/7 to 7/5/3 and "fixed" the top tier problem there would still be an outpouring of dissatisfaction with the MM even though "top tier" would appear almost 50% of the time.

Top Tier is a nebulous concept.  For example, at what point between 15 and 0 tanks is top tier considered top tier?  When most of this 9.18 MM discussion began same tier was not considered top tier.  Is 14-1 considered Top Tier "enough" when 15-0 is considered same tier? Is 10-5 top Tier "enough"  is 5-10 top tier enough?  Without that common baseline it often comes down to "I'm just not top tier enough..." which I translate as " I want the chance to bully -2 tiers all the time...like i used to in T5, T6, and T8"  

I am on-board with variety and do miss trying to take advantage of the multiple tanks line-ups, tank and tier miss-matches, and maps.

I have read the proposed solution and as I stated previously, if variety is the spice of life then lets have it.  Removing tier templates (3/5/7) and substituting tier/tank templates (TX superhevey vs TX superheavy, T8 autoloader vs T8 autoloader, etc) is just as restrictive as the 3/5/7 tier template only in a different fashion more palatable to some, and I don't think it would have made your friends experience grinding middle tiers any different or less frustrating...

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3 hours ago, 8_Hussars said:

The problem, as you have alluded to here, is defining good, bad, "playable", "ideal" "outperform", balanced MM. There are lots of players that dislike the template MM, there are lots that like the template MM, and some that just dont care either way.  I would postulate that even if we flipped the 3/5/7 to 7/5/3 and "fixed" the top tier problem there would still be an outpouring of dissatisfaction with the MM even though "top tier" would appear almost 50% of the time.

Top Tier is a nebulous concept.  For example, at what point between 15 and 0 tanks is top tier considered top tier?  When most of this 9.18 MM discussion began same tier was not considered top tier.  Is 14-1 considered Top Tier "enough" when 15-0 is considered same tier? Is 10-5 top Tier "enough"  is 5-10 top tier enough?  Without that common baseline it often comes down to "I'm just not top tier enough..." which I translate as " I want the chance to bully -2 tiers all the time...like i used to in T5, T6, and T8"  

I am on-board with variety and do miss trying to take advantage of the multiple tanks line-ups, tank and tier miss-matches, and maps.

I have read the proposed solution and as I stated previously, if variety is the spice of life then lets have it.  Removing tier templates (3/5/7) and substituting tier/tank templates (TX superhevey vs TX superheavy, T8 autoloader vs T8 autoloader, etc) is just as restrictive as the 3/5/7 tier template only in a different fashion more palatable to some, and I don't think it would have made your friends experience grinding middle tiers any different or less frustrating...

Crap, you took the words right out of my head. I was going to write your first two sentences into my post, but I thought it was long enough and I already have a reputation for writing "articles" instead of posts. :)

As for the 7/5/3 concept, I think you are right. Getting stuck in a system with a strict format is always going to depress some segment of the community. The worst part about it is that players know that they are only going to get one of a very limited few template alternatives each time they hit Battle. Currently we expect to be bottom tier in a 3/5/7 or 5/10 format and the only variety we see is during a minority of our matches when we see the other 4 positions (middle, same, and top in 3/5/7 and 5/10). Which is a pathetic variety.

In a random system, each time you hit Battle, there are so many possibilities that you don't know what to expect. You could be top, middle, or bottom, and within those tier locations there is so much variety that even the dreaded bottom tier matches could end up being quite pleasurable with a 3/2/10 format or something like that. The drudgery of a predictable strict template is no match for a random system that distributes matches roughly evenly between top, middle, and bottom. Players are constantly left in suspense each time they enter a match in that type of system and can have reasonably high expectations of decent matches each time they play.

I'm with you on the variety of tanks in matches too. I'd much prefer the variety of tanks in matches to create even more unique experiences. That proposed solution that was previously linked was an attempt at compromise between multiple MM factions. I listened to a lot of players and their concerns and attempted to find a common ground where most were happy. I'd rather get some variety back in the matches created by the MM instead of continuing with the horribly deflating experiences we currently have in the game.

Top tier isn't a nebulous term. It is pretty straightforward. Top tier indicates that there are tanks below your tier in the match. So when playing as a "top tier tank," 1/14/0 and 14/1/0 would both be considered top tier, although extreme. Most players in a random system would rarely ever experience matches like that. Roughly guessing, it would be about 1 in 500 games for a player to even see a match like that (14/1/0, 1/14/0), let alone to be the lone tank. It is a non sequitur. The great mass of matches are likely to have between 3 and 7 tanks at each tier, equaling 15 tanks per team (ex. 3/7/5).

My new player friend would certainly have been much happier playing in a random system where he had more battles from a position of superiority (about 35% compared with the current 8%), along with the expectation that any time he hit the Battle button he could be in that superior position, instead of the predictable inferiority that is enforced and expected from our MM today.

Yup, another "article." :D

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On 10/16/2017 at 4:18 PM, Liberty75 said:

It would help if you explained why this current MM is a lot better than what we used to have.

If I'm tier 8, I know I'll only be facing 3 tier X's max.  I can deal with that.  I can also deal with 5 tier 9's.  I can't deal with being the ONLY tier 8 in a tier X match. 

Yes, that is not usual, but it and other variations did happen on occasions.  Bottom line, I'm OK being bottom tier as long as I can do something against most other tanks in the match.  In the old days, it was very possible for top tier to be the overwhelming majority.

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55 minutes ago, swyck said:

If I'm tier 8, I know I'll only be facing 3 tier X's max.  I can deal with that.  I can also deal with 5 tier 9's.  I can't deal with being the ONLY tier 8 in a tier X match. 

Yes, that is not usual, but it and other variations did happen on occasions.  Bottom line, I'm OK being bottom tier as long as I can do something against most other tanks in the match.  In the old days, it was very possible for top tier to be the overwhelming majority.

It doesn't make logical sense to give ourselves more bottom tier battles to just avoid one battle in 500.

If I break down about 500 battles into the old probability numbers, it would about look like this...

- top tier 175

- middle tier 175

- and bottom tier 150

 

To avoid being a single bottom tier tank in ONE battle, we now have this new set of numbers?

- top tier 35                                                                         (21 in 3/5/7 and 14 in 5/10)

- middle tier 90

- same tier 90

- and bottom tier 285                                                         (224 in 3/5/7 and 61 in 5/10).

 

It seems like an irrational fear to damn ourselves to such a lopsided distribution of matches, all in an effort to avoid one possible battle that rarely ever occurs. Most bottom tier matches under the old system had 4 or 5 top tier tanks in them. You would get more extreme matches here and there, but that was overall a positive as the system created unique situations for players to encounter. We used to operate under a system that provided a great deal of variety.

It seems like a bad trade off sacrificing a roughly even balance of matches between top, middle, and bottom AND sacrificing the wide variety of matches we encountered to get an unbalanced and dull MM with the same 3 templates over and over, only to avoid one match that was only overly-challenging to a small segment of the population.

Edited by Liberty75

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5 hours ago, Liberty75 said:

It doesn't make logical sense to give ourselves more bottom tier battles to just avoid one battle in 500.

If I break down about 500 battles into the old probability numbers, it would about look like this...

- top tier 175

- middle tier 175

- and bottom tier 150

 

To avoid being a single bottom tier tank in ONE battle, we now have this new set of numbers?

- top tier 35                                                                         (21 in 3/5/7 and 14 in 5/10)

- middle tier 90

- same tier 90

- and bottom tier 285                                                         (224 in 3/5/7 and 61 in 5/10).

You're picking the "single bottom tier" tank scenario to help with math that just doesn't pan out in your favor. You can't be top tier more often without also skewing the bottom tier to +2 tier tank ratios. In other words, how often would there be more tier 10 tanks than tier 8 tanks in a match? It was not that uncommon for over half of the tanks to be 1 or 2 tiers higher than the minority lower tier tanks. 

You are treating "top tier" and "bottom tier" as absolutes, but they are not. Use of a continuous variable that denotes the ratio of top, middle and bottom tier tanks would be more informative. 

The vast majority of the tanks that you face in the 3/5/7 system as a middle tier tank are the same tier as you.

PS - I apologize if I'm repeating a point that's already been made. I only read the OP and the last page. 

PPS - Would the game collapse like Armored Warfare on NA if they went to a max of +1 MM?

PPPS - 3/5/7 combines with power creeping premiums definitely has rendered by beloved KV-5 unplayable. 

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21 minutes ago, monjardin said:

You're picking the "single bottom tier" tank scenario to help with math that just doesn't pan out in your favor. You can't be top tier more often without also skewing the bottom tier to +2 tier tank ratios. In other words, how often would there be more tier 10 tanks than tier 8 tanks in a match? It was not that uncommon for over half of the tanks to be 1 or 2 tiers higher than the minority lower tier tanks. 

You are treating "top tier" and "bottom tier" as absolutes, but they are not. Use of a continuous variable that denotes the ratio of top, middle and bottom tier tanks would be more informative. 

The vast majority of the tanks that you face in the 3/5/7 system as a middle tier tank are the same tier as you.

PS - I apologize if I'm repeating a point that's already been made. I only read the OP and the last page. 

PPS - Would the game collapse like Armored Warfare on NA if they went to a max of +1 MM?

PPPS - 3/5/7 combines with power creeping premiums definitely has rendered by beloved KV-5 unplayable. 

I don't quite follow you fully on everything you wrote. I'm an average guy so you may need to flesh it out more. From what I do understand, you are correct that over half of the enemy is going to be higher tier than the minority bottom tier in the old MM, but that is what the system produces now, isn't it? The old system at least kept you around 30% bottom tier matches, most of which had a good breakdown of top, middle, and bottom tier tanks in them, instead of the currently almost 50% bottom at -2 tiers.

I picked the single bottom tier scenario because an earlier poster stated that he liked the new MM because he didn't need to worry about being a single bottom tier tank anymore. I wanted to highlight that that fear is unfounded.

I hear you about the KV-5. A lot of those old premiums that I have are collecting dust now. In a recent video, Lemming Rush (a content creator) said that he wasn't worried about credits for the moment, since he was selling off all of his failed tier 8 premium tanks now. I'm not ready to do that yet, but yeah, it is bad out there under the current MM.

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You would think that at some point this will seriously begin to hurt their bottom line as people realize that there is no point anymore to buying tier 8 premiums.  About the only one I continue to play is the Skorpion because it doesn't care what tier it is shooting at.   It's hard to grind silver when most of your games are bottom tier. 

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It is inferior on so many levels that it baffles me why people claim to like it... then I remember and respect the power propaganda/marketing has over people. :ohgod:

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