sgtbarnes75

Warship stats (making sense of them)

27 posts in this topic

Hey guys

Just wondering about the correlation of the win rate vs the WN rating. In my tiny brain I would have thought that if you had a half decent winrate than your W.N rating should be close to it at least in colour as surely your win rate is largely down to your skill and understanding of the game ? So if there is a biggish gap (platooning excluded) between the figures why would this be ? In Barnesland if you have a high win and low WN you must have been tooning up with a good player or two, and low win and high WN you get super unlucky all the time with mega shitty teams or play all the shitty ships (highly unlikely but possible) 

 

Many thanks in advance. 

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The metric is limited by the very small amount of information that Wargaming provides in it's API for data mining.  It is a lot easier to get a higher win rate than your WTR rating due to divisioning with a group of 3 similarly skilled players.  The biggest part of the metric is damage dealt, accounting for 50%, followed by kills and win rate.  Until someone decides to work on a new formula using the newer info that WG is releasing, WTR or PR from wows-numbers.com are going to be the default ratings.  a 3 man div is 25% of the total force on a team, compared to only 20% in a 15 tanks match.  therefore 3 good players will have a greater impact in ships than tanks.

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This I don't understand. I have a high recent win rate but not so much with the personal rating. All of my recent battles, and most overall, are solo. Should my WR be driven lower than my personal rating running all solo battles? 

 

Edit: Almost all of my recent battles are in cruisers. Due to most of the personal rating system being based on damage does the class you play have a big impact on the personal rate and less on the WR?

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This game is objective based as well. Damage is important, but mission is more important. Capping and resetting caps is more important than damage. From an experience point of view, you get the same exp for soloing a 16k HP DD as you do for soloing a 69k BB.  A lot of games you will have 3 or 4 survivors. You can tank damage and do spotting damage as well. This can be very important, since your teammates will be at full health and the red team will be down a ship or 2 and be at half health.

I had a recent Missouri game where I had 110k damage spotted and 3 million damage plus tanked. I survived the battle with 2k hp, but there were 5 or 6 ships trying to kill me for 10 minutes. I only did about 100k damage myself. To many disabled turrets and dodging of torps.

Another example is maybe you kill 3 dds and do 45k damage in a CA. That will have a great influence on the game even though you damage numbers are a bit low.

 

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I am not sure how accurate the WTR system is, but it does appear to do some normalization based on ship and tier.

It has me as a low level smurf, which seems about right. I tend to either play purple or red depending on if I overextend/get torped, often due to being new to the maps.

It is not complete BS,  but likely worse than WN8 for tanks. Capping and defence will be heavily ship based.

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20 minutes ago, Vettish said:

 

Damage can basically be stacked into 2 categories:

Priority damage: Things like citadels, which only heal about 10%, penetrations, which heal 50-60%, torpedos, and other forms of irreparible damage, such as to DDs or cruisers

Padding damage: Things like fires/floodings, overpens, generally damage that won't stick

These do not directly affect your WTR, but it will affect your winrate, because the damage which cannot be healed is far more useful than damage that can be. So if you spend your whole time in a CL firespamming at BBs, sure, you'll see big damage numbers, but if you sacrifice some of that damage for shooting DDs, your winrate should increase, because the damage you do is more effective. Since WTR acts similar to WoT with its WN-X series of ratings, it compares your damage to an expected value. However, this does not take into account  the type of damage you do, to what. So you might lose WTR due to losses with your target priorities, but you should see a higher winrate to compare. Does this answer your question for the most part?

Since I play a lot of cruisers and BBs, but prefer to target DDs, no matter the ship, I'll have lower damage values, which translates to lower WTR, while having potentially a higher win rate.

Either way, stats are merely a guideline, and may not reflect how one actually plays.

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I'm still at the stage where I shoot whoever I can while trying not to get deleted

Omaha is not an E-50! I Keep forgetting that. 

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I will always shoot a DD if I think its a shot I can make. I do delete at lot of them or at least chase them off. I'll also try to support BBs on my team when I can with AA fire or chasing off those pesky DDs. Otherwise I'll cap or defend cap as much as I can without overextending. When I do shoot at BBs, I try to start a fire or two then move to another target. Sometimes the BB will repair and waste the CD but if not the damage will tick for quite a bit. I try to support my teams DDs as much as I can but often DD drivers seem to have a suicide pact with the opposing DDs. 

 

I still have a low battle count and my high tier experience is missing. I played three games in a T8 prem I bought and lost all three so I won't touch it again until I pass it with the tech tree Soviet cruiser. I don't want to be a drag on my team. Of the three games two were T10 and the other was heavy T9. Boy is the play different at that level! Got my ass handed to me big time.

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I suggest you play IJN cruisers first. They'll teach you more about the game than soviet cruisers. And are less likely to cause you to pull your hair out.

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34 minutes ago, Vettish said:

I still have a low battle count and my high tier experience is missing. I played three games in a T8 prem I bought and lost all three so I won't touch it again until I pass it with the tech tree Soviet cruiser. I don't want to be a drag on my team. Of the three games two were T10 and the other was heavy T9. Boy is the play different at that level! Got my ass handed to me big time.

Back when I was more of a noob than I am now I bought an Atago. And yes, high tiers are pretty punishing if you don't know what to expect. Unfortunately I wasn't as quick to realize how inexperienced I was and probably played 85 games or so before realizing my error.

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1 hour ago, SoliDeoGloria said:

Damage can basically be stacked into 2 categories:

Priority damage: Things like citadels, which only heal about 10%, penetrations, which heal 50-60%, torpedos, and other forms of irreparible damage, such as to DDs or cruisers

Padding damage: Things like fires/floodings, overpens, generally damage that won't stick

These do not directly affect your WTR, but it will affect your winrate, because the damage which cannot be healed is far more useful than damage that can be. So if you spend your whole time in a CL firespamming at BBs, sure, you'll see big damage numbers, but if you sacrifice some of that damage for shooting DDs, your winrate should increase, because the damage you do is more effective. Since WTR acts similar to WoT with its WN-X series of ratings, it compares your damage to an expected value. However, this does not take into account  the type of damage you do, to what. So you might lose WTR due to losses with your target priorities, but you should see a higher winrate to compare. Does this answer your question for the most part?

Since I play a lot of cruisers and BBs, but prefer to target DDs, no matter the ship, I'll have lower damage values, which translates to lower WTR, while having potentially a higher win rate.

Either way, stats are merely a guideline, and may not reflect how one actually plays.

Perfect thank you for taking that time to reply. That makes a lot of sense. So to super simplify Its kind of not just the quantity of damage you do but the quality/type and who you do it too. Thats why it can disproportionately skew the WN8 to WR ratio.  

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I find WTR  sorta bad, since like WN8 it is very very easy to pad, just play any USN DD from tier 5-7 and do 40K dmg, watch your number shoot up.

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You can pad any metric in existence - through long experience I know that your own personal evaluation of your play is more important than any number you can come up with. Are you happy with your skill progression within WoWS, WoT or anything else? Answer that based on your own experience and it's "smooth sailing/steaming ( and maybe even streaming if that's your thing!)

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Yeah. At the moment the stats that stat sites can record are nice but not telling. Solo win rate is damn fine measure though.

Also, you can learn a lot from your stats – even the ones we have. Things like survival rate can be telling (hint, mine is dogshit).

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While WoWS provides the same values as WoT for avid stats fans, the main metrci (damage dealt) is less telling in WoWS than it is in WoT because of the vastly different amount of health of various ship types and the existance fo heals PLUS the different type of damage (easily healable fire/HE vs citadel/torp).

On top of that utility abilities like radar and smoke also do not exist in WoT but do exist and can influence battles greatly in WoWS.

And on top of that the WTR system inherits all the weak points of WN8 (double paddable by either playing weak ships that will get a buff sometimes or by playing strong ships before they get heavily nerfed).

However all is not doom and gloom bc WoWS has SOLO WINRATE. So if you are recruiter for a clan you can use the solo winrate of the ships you deem important (or even overall solo winrate for a quick glance).

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WTR/WSPR should be treated the same as WN8: good for improvement but never an absolute rating. Damage based metrics all have issues with extremes of the scale and a lot of the issues I've noticed mirror the issues in WN8. Classes that are badly played such as DDs print WTR while easier classes undershoot actual player skill (remember how easy it was to print WN8 in light tanks but heavies would wreck it). Basically, if you're playing a balanced ship with lots of data and you're not a total waste of space or a superunicum then the rating is a decent guide to improvement.  

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6 hours ago, MaxL_1023 said:

through long experience I know that your own personal evaluation of your play is more important than any number you can come up with

I experienced this after I agreed to be the caller for a german blunicum wannabe community clan... A team full of 2000+ WN8 guys that simply couldn't play together, would not listen to any commands in favor of damage whoring and then complain when we lost to yellow/green clans that simply and somewhat effectively played together,..

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2 hours ago, Jaegaer said:

I experienced this after I agreed to be the caller for a german blunicum wannabe community clan... A team full of 2000+ WN8 guys that simply couldn't play together, would not listen to any commands in favor of damage whoring and then complain when we lost to yellow/green clans that simply and somewhat effectively played together,..

I've played three games with some unicum players and immediately recommended them for rejection from OMNI. There are players who have stats that look good but make you want to kill them within 30 seconds of playing with them. 

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13 hours ago, SoliDeoGloria said:

I suggest you play IJN cruisers first. They'll teach you more about the game than soviet cruisers. And are less likely to cause you to pull your hair out.

I was going to do that but I really want to play clan wars but no clan will take me without a tier 10 and more battles. Reading up on meta and what is expected to do well and or needed in clan wars leads me to grind the Soviet / German cruiser lines. I am doing well in both I think so I'll probably stick with them, Soviet being the primary. I only really play games for the endgame content. I don't want my first tier 10 to be something that a caller does not want or a ship that will drag the team down. 

 

I started with American BBs because I'm a huge WW2 naval buff/fan and did shit in them early but got better by NM. Then I stared playing cruisers due to CW coming and one BB a team. I am really enjoying cruisers more than I thought I would and I don't see myself going back to BBs anytime soon. I did this same shit in WoT, chasing the meta CW tanks. 

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Go for russian cruisers over german ones, if you have a deadline to meet. Both lines are full of capable ships, but the german line hits a weak zone at T7 to T8. Neither Yorck nor Hipper are really bad ships, but they got their issues that make them needlessly hard to play effective.

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29 minutes ago, Madner Kami said:

german line hits a weak zone at T7

Yorck is actually pretty decent. You are a fairly good long range HE spammer, it's just that the AP is so bad (shell speed is glacial). Hipper is bad, yes, on top of tier VIII BS MM.

Roon and DimDon are fairly similar but Hindenburg is imho a much easier ship than the Moskva, more fun and stronger on top.

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On 10/4/2017 at 5:13 PM, SoliDeoGloria said:

Damage can basically be stacked into 2 categories:

Priority damage: Things like citadels, which only heal about 10%, penetrations, which heal 50-60%, torpedos, and other forms of irreparible damage, such as to DDs or cruisers

Padding damage: Things like fires/floodings, overpens, generally damage that won't stick

These do not directly affect your WTR, but it will affect your winrate, because the damage which cannot be healed is far more useful than damage that can be. So if you spend your whole time in a CL firespamming at BBs, sure, you'll see big damage numbers, but if you sacrifice some of that damage for shooting DDs, your winrate should increase, because the damage you do is more effective. Since WTR acts similar to WoT with its WN-X series of ratings, it compares your damage to an expected value. However, this does not take into account  the type of damage you do, to what. So you might lose WTR due to losses with your target priorities, but you should see a higher winrate to compare. Does this answer your question for the most part?

Since I play a lot of cruisers and BBs, but prefer to target DDs, no matter the ship, I'll have lower damage values, which translates to lower WTR, while having potentially a higher win rate.

Either way, stats are merely a guideline, and may not reflect how one actually plays.

Trying to shoot DDs with a BB is an exercise in frustration for me, although to be fair I don't have any BBs above Tier 5.

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Also, all 4 ship classes are so different and have different roles. There also different sub roles with each class. (khab is gunboat dd, shima torps, and the the various hybrids in the other lines). So a one size fits all equations is not really a good idea.

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I think the current WTR is using raw win rate in a ship, so by default divisioning can pad it while all other stats seem equal. However, besides this everything is per-ship so role changes won't be a big issue. Things like tanking damage, capture/defense and spotting damage should really be included as well, but they are not at the moment. 

The WTR system can be improved, but it is the best I have found out there as a currently existing stat metric. 

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