ZXrage

Italian Tanks: Progetto M35 mod 46 (vol. 1 and 2) and New Mechanic

177 posts in this topic

2 hours ago, hiipanda said:

Full reload time: 9.59 – 16.3 s || 10 / 13 / 17 s

17 seconds to load the first shell, 13 seconds for the second shell and 10 seconds for the last shell which is also the reload time if you fire only one shell at a time. 40 second reload for all of the shells.

This is absurd since it would mean it takes you 40s to deal sub 1000dmg. 

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Single shot dpm of 1501 with that 9.59 reload, which is worse than a lowe. It might be able to use a gun rammer unlike a normal autoloader tank. 

Treating it like an autoloader and firing the whole 3 shot clip off whenever it is full gets you 1008 dpm.

Using it like an autoloader and having the 4 round clip gets you 997 dpm.

Firing as fast as you can and never letting the shells stack up gets you 883 dpm regardless of clip size.

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1 hour ago, hiipanda said:

Single shot dpm of 1501 with that 9.59 reload, which is worse than a lowe. It might be able to use a gun rammer unlike a normal autoloader tank. 

Treating it like an autoloader and firing the whole 3 shot clip off whenever it is full gets you 1008 dpm.

Using it like an autoloader and having the 4 round clip gets you 997 dpm.

Firing as fast as you can and never letting the shells stack up gets you 883 dpm regardless of clip size.

This^

it will very interesting to see how this comes out on the live server.

im also interested to see how people will use this in practice, i can already tell these tanks will be the types that will only be good in the hands of a skilled player who thinks ahead.

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7 hours ago, hiipanda said:

Full reload time: 9.59 – 16.3 s || 10 / 13 / 17 s

Fwiw, the way I interpret this is 9.59 / ~10s to load first shell; +3-ish seconds to load second shell (I.e 13s accumulative); +3-ish seconds to load third shell (I.e. 16.3 / 17s accumulative).

Not a 40 sec reload for the whole clip.

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2 hours ago, AdrianK said:

Fwiw, the way I interpret this is 9.59 / ~10s to load first shell; +3-ish seconds to load second shell (I.e 13s accumulative); +3-ish seconds to load third shell (I.e. 16.3 / 17s accumulative).

Not a 40 sec reload for the whole clip.

?? 10+13+17=40. no ? 

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3 hours ago, AdrianK said:

Fwiw, the way I interpret this is 9.59 / ~10s to load first shell; +3-ish seconds to load second shell (I.e 13s accumulative); +3-ish seconds to load third shell (I.e. 16.3 / 17s accumulative).

Not a 40 sec reload for the whole clip.

You can get some crazy dpm with that reload.

3 shell clip would be around 2,246 dpm and the 4 shell clip is 2,582 dpm assuming 2 second in between firing. Those values give it better dpm than other tier 8 or 9 tanks with 240 alpha. If you only fired one shot at a time and had a 3 second reload you would have 4,800 dpm.  If it is a  9.59 second for just one shell you get the 1501 dpm. It would make no sense to fire single shot for 1501 dpm when you can just act like an auto loader and get better dpm.

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I'm looking forward to Italian tanks. Even tho they're not that great nation, still they deserve a place before Čehoslovačka and/or Sweden or so.

The only bad this is if the tier X Leo would not have any armor... That would be a competition to Leo 1 for the most useless tier X med in today's meta.

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57 minutes ago, hiipanda said:

You can get some crazy dpm with that reload.

3 shell clip would be around 2,246 dpm and the 4 shell clip is 2,582 dpm assuming 2 second in between firing. Those values give it better dpm than other tier 8 or 9 tanks with 240 alpha. If you only fired one shot at a time and had a 3 second reload you would have 4,800 dpm.  If it is a  9.59 second for just one shell you get the 1501 dpm. It would make no sense to fire single shot for 1501 dpm when you can just act like an auto loader and get better dpm.

So it's either very overpowered or very underpowered in first iteration. So basically placeholder reload stats

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On 26/01/2018 at 8:22 PM, Ickus said:

Each shell has a specific reload time, with a 2.5 second intraclip reload. The first shot takes 8 seconds to load, the second 11, and the third 14. So for a single shot it's either 2.5 (if loaded) or 8 seconds (if empty). For two shots, 19 seconds. For three shots, 33 (:eww:) seconds.

I think you have misunderstood, the more you have loaded the faster the reload so with 2 loaded it takes 8 seconds for the 3rd to load, if you empty your clip, the first shell takes 14 seconds to load, the 2nd 11 and the 3rd 8 seconds giving a total reload time of 33 seconds

So it means you need to be careful about unloading 

1 hour ago, hazzgar said:

So it's either very overpowered or very underpowered in first iteration. So basically placeholder reload stats

From the video i watched it was a 3 shell clip, and with best case 8 second reload that's only 1800 DPM based on 240 Alpha and 7.5 rounds per minute unless i'm missing something?

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37 minutes ago, SolarflareGrenraven said:

I think you have misunderstood, the more you have loaded the faster the reload so with 2 loaded it takes 8 seconds for the 3rd to load, if you empty your clip, the first shell takes 14 seconds to load, the 2nd 11 and the 3rd 8 seconds giving a total reload time of 33 seconds

So it means you need to be careful about unloading 

From the video i watched it was a 3 shell clip, and with best case 8 second reload that's only 1800 DPM based on 240 Alpha and 7.5 rounds per minute unless i'm missing something?

No you are probably the closest to it. I was responding to hiipanda but your theory about how this works is much better.

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12 minutes ago, hazzgar said:

No you are probably the closest to it. I was responding to hiipanda but your theory about how this works is much better.

Ok i have just looked at the revised info on this and it looks like its more as follows

Best DPM based on 9.59 reload is 1500 DPM

If you fully unload clip it would be as follows i think 9.59+11.83+14.07+16.3 meaning 51.79 seconds to reload for 960 Damage which is totally crippling you if you unload.

They need to seriously reconsider the reload times on this as its looking like it will be totally gimped based on this


 

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Guys armored patrol has posted this:

Damage: 240 / 240 / 320
Penetration: 212 / 259 / 45
Full reload time: 9.59 – 16.3 s || 10 / 13 / 17 s
Shell reload time: 2.5s

 

So the intraclip is 2.5s. Not some crazy number. 

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1 hour ago, hazzgar said:

Guys armored patrol has posted this:

Damage: 240 / 240 / 320
Penetration: 212 / 259 / 45
Full reload time: 9.59 – 16.3 s || 10 / 13 / 17 s
Shell reload time: 2.5s

 

So the intraclip is 2.5s. Not some crazy number. 

2.5s is pretty good. It's not T57 or TVP level, but it's batchat level intraclip. 

The gun looks like a standard tier 8 90mm. I think this tank will be great for tracking enemies with a couple shells then reloading those 2 and dumping them.

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Ok QB + This makes me think it's 2.5s intraclip and then if you have 3 shells in clip it's 10s reload, if you have 2 then the next shell will load in 13s and if you have one/zero (dont know if 3/4) then it's 17s. So yeah 40s reload for the full clip kinda sucks but it's flexible.

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I read it differently. I had read it the way that Adrian had stated but with WG it's hard to know for sure with the translations until we see a video of it in action.

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13 hours ago, Deus__Ex__Machina said:

 i can already tell these tanks will be the types that will only be good in the hands of a skilled player who thinks ahead.

Well that's me fucked before it even arrives.......

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The accuracy, aimtime, and pen all look really solid for a tier 8 premium regardless of the magazine mechanics.  I am genuinely curious how the timing of this will work out with the upcoming patch and the need to allocate female crew members before the start of March.  I have two gals unassigned, if one of them can be Italian, I am thinking this tank looks interesting enough that one of them WILL be Italian.

The flexibility of this ride is just intriguing.  It won't be punished for sniping like a traditional autoloader, but it still has burst potential available for a late game flex.  Decent gun, decent mobility, not penneable by HE, and sauce that the French have envied for 500 years.  Whats not to love.

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1 hour ago, TheSovereign said:

I read it differently. I had read it the way that Adrian had stated but with WG it's hard to know for sure with the translations until we see a video of it in action.

https://youtu.be/6aaDkDNeRSA?t=359

Here you can see the reload in action, first shell takes the longest to reload, next shell is faster, next is even faster.... Reload starts at 3:03 and at 2:35, 28s later there's still 6,26s remaining so the 34-ish seconds calculations are correct (this is with food and no info about equipment/crew skills, mind).

Also, no offense to anyone here, but everything regarding inter and intra clip was shown in the video when it was released, all you had to do was watch it and you'd see how long the intraclip is or that it doesn't reload whole mag in 17 seconds...

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54 minutes ago, Marty said:

 

Also, no offense to anyone here, but everything regarding inter and intra clip was shown in the video when it was released, all you had to do was watch it and you'd see how long the intraclip is or that it doesn't reload whole mag in 17 seconds...

No worries. The way they had described the reload simply made that interpretation seem feasible.

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9 hours ago, SolarflareGrenraven said:

the more you have loaded the faster the reload so with 2 loaded it takes 8 seconds for the 3rd to load, if you empty your clip, the first shell takes 14 seconds to load, the 2nd 11 and the 3rd 8 seconds giving a total reload time of 33 seconds

This is correct.

The first shot reload probably needs to be buffed. That’s T20 DPM a tier higher (going by the cited 9.59 second reload). 

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51 minutes ago, monjardin said:

This is correct.

The first shot reload probably needs to be buffed. That’s T20 DPM a tier higher (going by the cited 9.59 second reload). 

You are paying for a gimmick. You can't give this tank a normal 240 alpha gun DPM AND give it the ability to just become an autoloader.

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9 hours ago, SolarflareGrenraven said:

Ok i have just looked at the revised info on this and it looks like its more as follows

Best DPM based on 9.59 reload is 1500 DPM

If you fully unload clip it would be as follows i think 9.59+11.83+14.07+16.3 meaning 51.79 seconds to reload for 960 Damage which is totally crippling you if you unload.

They need to seriously reconsider the reload times on this as its looking like it will be totally gimped based on this


 

That's pretty much what i had, but i missed the 2.5 interclip and got a better dpm by using a 2 second interclip.

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I can't really see a way where this type of mechanic will be OP in the hands of the general players. This mechanic scales with foresight and map awareness which is something 90% of the playerbase doesn't even know about, let alone that there's a metagame. Scaling is perfectly viable, and while some tanks scale with micromanaging (russian mediums especially and in return turned very OP in the past) this is something you can't rush. The tank gets better the better of a player you are, so the mechanic is going to breathe new air into the game. This is an old MOBA concept that's been used for almost 20 years so unless WG finds a way to break the tanks completely with overbuffing then this should be fine. The tank displayed on the video looks like a very nice example of balance anyway, so I'm just hoping for the rest of the Italian tanks that follow the mechanic to remain the same. 

Some thoughts on the gameplay and mainly a T10 perspective. (Assuming 390 alpha 3 round drum with the same reloads as the T8 presented in the video for simplicity)

Pros: (from the tank and mechanics, not gameplay balance)

  • Being able to shift in between single shot for DPM and autoloading for clutch or cleanup is interesting. What's probably going to be the absolute optimal way of playing this tank is to single shoot throughout entire engagements until you either get yoloed or when the engagement is about to end and you can end up clipping a full clip since you're about to move to another engagement anyway so you've created a situation where your clip is the best way of making your EDPM as high as possible. People experienced with TVP should be really familiar with this already in terms of picking the right times to clip so your timing is on point before the next engagement. The full clips seem to be about BC 25t reloads long so there's another tank to think of how and when to time the engagements in a way so you don't lose out even if the Italians and the BCs don't really share other things besides that. 
  • This is related to the former one but not quite in the same way. It's also singleshot/autoloader related but cutting it out of from the black and white and greying the lines out a bit. The possibility of being able to take advantage of overcommitments. The T10 version of this is very likely to be able to solo pretty much any tier 10 short of the 2,5k+ HP targets. If someone is closing in on you, holding the single shot until they're fully clippable means that you're going to slap them for more than they can possibly give (this is the only broken aspect of the mechanic I can think of). Let's say the T10 follows the same reloads but simply with a 390 alpha gun (possibly 320 but 390 makes more sense for the sake of argument and since Italy is a NATO country to follow the trend of NATO guns) with a 3 round autoloader. 4 rounds would honestly be breaking it, and giving it worse reloads in general makes me consider the 3 round autoloader much more. 4 round could be possible with a lower alpha option but would still end up being worse for gameplay on both the playing and receiving end personally. That's doing 2-3 shots and then switching to the autoloader. Poof, dead. This thing is going to eat light tanks for breakfast and lower tiers for dinner. Just not rushing your autoloader instantly but deciding to do it when a longer reload won't gimp you, even if it's just talking about an extra shot instead of the full clip. Doing 2 shots worth and intentionally holding the third for an increase in DPM will surely also find itself worthwhile in certain situations. 
  • MT platform will allow the mechanic to be used very well due to mobility in terms of rotating and the few flanking options the game has left. 
  • Single shooting DPM isn't terrible. If you can live with poking every 10 seconds instead of every 6-8 you're going to be in an ideal position to farm up as much as possible before the engagement is about to end. 
  • Autoloader intraclip is goodI personally think this needs nerfing, intraclip should not be better than any other autoloader that isn't a Foch 155. This basically means that with some foresight and distance, a BC or TVP won't stand a chance against you. First shot on spot, second fully reloaded shot before they close the distance put in and then 3 autoloaded shots while the only gap where you don't have the advantage is the time for you to reload that last third shell in the chamber when they're currently clipping you. Slap some HP on this scenario and basically anything sub 1,6-1,8k HP is not going to be able to push you unless you're two shot or less.
  • With this mechanic you're actually going to fare decently in steamrolls. Maybe not super well but you will always have the chance to clip out whatever you're shooting at and decide that the damage right there is yours and your team won't leech off of it for a quick damage boost on endgame. 
  • Speaking of endgame scenarios you're going to be king of the hill. Autoloaders still theoretically pose a bigger threat but they have the drawback of only being able to keep their gun in the game while they're reloaded meaning that unless this gets absolute garbage gun handling you're going to end up outfarming both autoloaders and single shooters on late midgame and endgame. 

Cons:

  • Firing a shell will restart the reload process of the currently loading shell. This is a necessary drawback but also one that really sucks while playing. Going single shooter is the way to go for most of the battle in this, but when people poke on your reloads as important kills or simply overcommitments that you want to get your hands on, the time spent reloading the currently loading shell is wasted. It really sucks when you've waited 9 seconds but your target is about to go out of cover, so you've effectively spent 24 seconds reloading one shell. This means that firm decisionmaking of when the clip and when to singleshoot is important, as mixing both on a whim might just kill your DPM more than just autoloading all 3 shells right from the get go. 
  • Getting caught off guard. You're going to be just as useless as an autoloader that just started to reload if you get caught in the wrong places. You're risking to take hits with your first shell barely loaded, and firing it is saying bye even more to your DPM. The scenario will never work out in a favourable way. Not firing it is giving them uncontested free damage, and firing it is delaying your effectiveness by another 15 seconds. 
  • Ammoracks. If it follows the same rules as all the other tanks do with ammoracks (reload time doubled but intraclip is unaffected) then you're going to be less effective than a T-34-2 trying to outplay a hulldown IS-7. HE T8 bots are going to deal more damage :serb: Ammo rack durability and loader deaths is going to be a huge decider. If it's as common as other NATO tanks then wet ammorack is honestly a valid option if rammer isn't a possible equipment option. 
  • I'm not sure about the gun handling so I put it here, missing shots is just going to suck. So hard. All newer autoloaders have poor pen as well so I wouldn't be surprised if this gets 248/300 pen. If so then I'll be running full HEAT considering you can't switch shells without reloading your clip unless the it has a decent ammo capacity. And it should have at least 40 shells considering the type of gameplay you'll end up doing, but personally 50-60 should be more likely but who knows. Ammo count can definitely gimp this tank as well.

All in all it benefits from both upsides of having a single shooter, and also an autoloader. At the same time it also features both their downsides, and it poses a unique trait with another unique drawback that getting accustomed to might trouble a lot of people. I'm personally hyped for this as it's the first time since the Grille 15 that I'll actually go on the test server and really try it out.

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1 hour ago, Kolni said:

Firing a shell will restart the reload process of the currently loading shell.

It completely resets the reload instead of proportionally extending it? That really stinks.

Also, thanks for writing that. You made some really good points that I hadn't yet considerd.

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