ThomChen114

How to balance the 268-4?

32 posts in this topic

What is it about this tank that makes it so controversial?

Is it the gun? Is it the armor? Is it the mobility?

Is there a reasonable way to balance this tank without turning it into an E5?

 

IMO the mobility needs to be toned down. Let it keep its speed so that it can get into the fight faster and be that assault gun that it is clearly designed to be, but it shouldn't be able to turn as well or even better than a medium tank at close range.

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Armor is the biggest issue imo, you can pen it if you shoot premium in the correct pixel and get a good pen roll.

Make lower plate weak, give it 40kph/18kph and it will be ok without being shit

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it needs a mobility nerf. the "E3" levels of armor combined with medium tank speed/acceleration and unreliable weak-points, make it a difficult target to kill for pubbies. and in return allow the driver to get away with some pretty stupid shit.

and even though its traverse is bad most "smart" 268 ver 4 drivers will simply reverse into a solid object faster than you can go forward to protect their rear.

IMO give it a top speed of 45km/h and a reverse of 15km/h. perhaps some terrain resistance nerfs as well so it cant accelerate like a formula One race car.

would also help if the cupola wasn't 250mm thick at its "weakest" points.

with this it will still be fairly mobile for its armor, but not to the point where it can out race most mediums, teleport across the map, and wont be practically immune to circle jerks from all things aside from tier 10 lights.

 

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Any of these would work

1. Give it an actual weakspots that can be reliably hit at reasonable ranges.
2. Nerf mobility
3. Nerf side armor
4. Nerf 360 heat pen to 310

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Why nerf the terrain resistances when you can just nerf the fucking bullshit fantasy engine on it? 

 

1500hp in 1950 on a tank.

 

Get fucked. 

 


Also the actual proposed armor values:

Quote

The lower front plate was thickened to 160 mm. The front of the casemate stayed at 180 mm, but 160 mm thick cheeks were positioned at a sharp angle.The mass of the vehicle remained under 50 tons.

UFP 75mm @75deg

http://tankarchives.blogspot.com.au/2016/09/the-last-soviet-heavy-tank-destroyers.html 

sauce

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Impossible to pen frontally 99% of time, reverses faster than some heavies move forwards, gun soft stats are a lie. 

Just kill it, send it to hell...

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Its actually hard to nerf properly while keeping it unique. Nerfing the top speed to 40 is too much because then it becomes another super boring turretless assault TD. The top speed is fine, however, the fact how reliably it hits is stupid as hell. The pen is also fine; dropping it too low makes the tank completely ass to play (nobody fuckinf plays the Foch B due to that). IMO this is the way to go:

- nerf reverse speed from 23 to 13-15

- nerf engine power from 1500 to 1100 (just below 15 hp/ton)

- nerf side armor significantly; make entirety of it 80. Reduce the angled sides on front of the casemate from 220 to as weak as possible so they are easily pennable from the side but are not pennable from front

- reduce rangefinder armor from 250 to like 120 (same as OG 268); its super small so it should be so weak that you should be able to autopen it when you hit it

- make LFP of the LFP like 20mm thick so its an autopen (again, a really small weakspot)

- nerf dispersion on moving/turning by like 30%, or even more, but keep the fast aim time

- in return, make the UFP like 150mm thick so u cant pen that anymore and makes the armor layout much less awkward. In general it is a super stupid ”weakspot” because it basically relies on RNG and on your angle compared to the 268v4. RNG weakspot that relies on gold spam is an awful concept, and not really necessary anymore if you have two easily pennable (but smol) weakspots. Buff casemate armor by 20-30mm to make sure its not HEAT spammable. Not like it matters anyway as nobody shoots there, but its just to make the armor layout more consistent.

The playstyle stays as the same even with all of the changes, but you just cant play like a braindead moron anymore. The cupola is now penned by everything it faces, so yoloing and facehugging like a baboon doesnt work anymore. Or well, it does, but you’re not invulnerable like you are now against many targets. People will still panic when they see the Russian version of Thomas the tank engine yoloing full speed towards them. Reverse speed and side armor nerf makes it actually really vulnerable to be flanked. The reverse speed should be shit, so it actually gets flanked easily. Gun handling is still good even with massive bloom nerf, because the aim time is still amazing. The bloom nerf simply means that it cant snapshot on the move anymore. Engine power nerf means that it wont reach the top speed as fast as it does now. It’s mobility is still a strong trait of the tank, but it no longer should be able to outpace medium tanks like it does now. It accelerates much slower than it does now.

The armor layout is much more consistent now, and has two obvious weakspots, not retarded RNG HEAT spam weakspots.

Basically, the reverse speed nerf, side armor nerf, bloom nerf, armor layout changed to be more consistent, and the major engine power nerf means that the tank cant just rape everything like it does now. The playstyle, however, stays largely the same - it still has great yoloing/rushing capability, like it does now. The difference is that it actually needs much, much more support, and is completely fucked when its alone.

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Bring back the 263 to tier X. Also remove Murazor.

The entire line is practically a second line td support aside from the 263 that is penneable (altough OP for tier 9) and flankable, and the retarded v4 which is the only one that can yolo. So nerf the armour and make it a second line tank with good mobility and some armour that gets punished for playing to aggressive, as it should because it doesn't have a turret.

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@leggasiini

what makes the tank so aids is that it can bounce nearly everything with no effort and pen you with no effort with 360 heat.

it's akin to the type 5 and needs to be balanced similarly. Nerfing its speed to even 40kmh would still make it unique. As is, it's what the foch 155 several patches ago used to be but better.

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nerf the fuck out of the LFP and the cupola, nerf the side armour as well. 

nerf the fuck out of the mobility in some way. either limit its top speed or make it sluggish as balls via terrain resistance. Im sorry but you can't have an E3s armour AND a 140s mobility at the same time.

not entirely sure on whether the gun needs changes, but impenetrable armour+medium tank mobility is ridiculous.

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It's hard to rebalance it. While the combination if its stats make it too good nerfing any point would make it complete shit to play with or against.
If you nerf speed and acceleration, it has to have better traverse speed.
If you nerf armor it has to have better DPM and overall gun stats .

 Honestly I'd rather face it head on rather than having to dig out another camping TD. I'd say rebalance rather than nerf.
Atleast it needs to pen and has to exposure a lot to do 650dmg unlike some HE firing heavy... with similar reload time... 

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34 minutes ago, kariverson said:

It's hard to rebalance it. While the combination if its stats make it too good nerfing any point would make it complete shit to play with or against.
If you nerf speed and acceleration, it has to have better traverse speed.
If you nerf armor it has to have better DPM and overall gun stats .

 Honestly I'd rather face it head on rather than having to dig out another camping TD. I'd say rebalance rather than nerf.
Atleast it needs to pen and has to exposure a lot to do 650dmg unlike some HE firing heavy... with similar reload time... 

any rebalance will be a nerf simply because of the fact that it excels at everything

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16 minutes ago, MagicalFlyingFox said:

any rebalance will be a nerf simply because of the fact that it excels at everything

And that's basically the problem with it, so nerfing it in one area is probably enough so that it at least has a weakness.

The way I see it, they either need to nerf mobility or nerf armour. Either one would still give the tank a certain flavour and 'niche'.

If they want to keep the crazy frontal armour, then nerf the mobility, in particular, reverse speed and traverse. Right now, these are so good at the tank has no trouble keeping its frontal armour towards most opponents, which means it can't die in a one-on-one and can also survive against multiple tanks in some situations. Take that away and it becomes a really fast straight-line assault TD that is actually vulnerable to flanking or being attacked by multiple tanks.

Alternatively, is to keep the mobility and nerf the armour, by giving it weak-spots that most tier 10 and tier 9 tanks can pen reliably. This would include matching the range-finder a reliable pen if hit with standard rounds, and making the lower plate an actual weakspot. This way, it becomes a heavy-punching medium with a fixed gun which can run and relocate but won't be invulnerable when pushing into a lot of enemy guns or if sitting in front of you trading.

Personally, I think the latter option would actually make the tank interesting. The idea of a huge, high-alpha TD that moves like a medium tank is actually at least a bit unique (whereas there are already a number of superheavy TDs in the game that can plow through multiple tanks). As long as the armour is then nerfed accordingly to make it actually need to use the mobility then I think it will still offer something different in the current meta without being completely overpowered.

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This tank is basically the old Foch 155 but instead of having the ability to clip you out in 5 seconds no matter who you are, it just bullies you into submission because you can't kill it.

 

The 268 4 is like a gulag while the Foch was more of a guillotine. 

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When a TD like this can bully a heavy tank or medium tank at almost any ranges, it's a problem.

Maybe make the gun arc narrower to force it to have to make so much micro adjustments that throws its aim off at mid-close range and expose a lot more.

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The only evidence you need that the tank is broken is the number you see in clan wars even on maps which aren't good for TD's.  Any of the nerfs previously mentioned and/or nerf the alpha down to 440. 

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I don't think this tank is really that hard to balance. It's just the rear-turreted nature that's throwing people off.

If we moved the fulcrum more towards the rear I bet I could balance this thing with a few tire weights.

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250mm is 25cm. Is there even any space left for vision detection devices behind the 25cm of steel on the rangefinder? Is that rangefinder even 25cm in diameter?

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Nerf view finder's armor, nerf top speed a bit, and nerf turning speed or terrain resistance.

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I would not really touch the rangefinder - we've seen how it can destroy tanks like M48, E5 or Foch. Maybe make it a little bit bigger or little weaker (10-20mm), but not something big and easy to pen.

I would leave the "big" lower plate and upper plate as they are, the upper plate is an interesting weakness IMO, but the "lower" lower plate needs to be much bigger, atleast double the height compared to what it is now. 

The bloom of the gun needs a major nerf, it's stupid that this tank can rock forward and backward making it hard to hit the "weakspots" and doesn't need to sit still even for a split second when shooting back. Or that he can hit you on the move and then ram for extra 500 DMG.

I'd leave the topspeed as it is but nerf acceleration - either through terrain resistances or HP/T. Less reverse speed is a given.

Last thing, the superstructure cheeks should be easier to pen.

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To be clear, regardless to what may possibly be done with the 268v4 in the future, the rework to the 263 line was a terrible mistake. All they had to do was buff the gun depression, traverse limits, and maybe also the shell velocity of a couple bad tanks in the line and all of this could have been avoided.

But what's done is done. In seriousness, the best way to handle this situation is just to make the weakspots into actual weakspots. The topside rangefinder and the bottom strip of the lower plate are small targets to hit, its ridiculous to have to load gold to penetrate these two areas. If the weakspots were fixed, that alone would make a notable difference because it would mean the 268v4 could be punished for just sitting in the line of fire. If that alone wasn't enough, step two would be nerfing the camo and view range.

I know everyone else's first impression was to go after overall armor thicknesses and mobility, but if WG actually does that then why again was the 263 replaced in the first case? Though at the same time it would make my day if they mindlessly render their previous work in vain by making such a change.

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17 hours ago, leggasiini said:

People will still panic when they see the Russian version of Thomas the tank engine yoloing full speed towards them.

I would have upvoted you even withoutthis Legga, lol.

I actually agree with Legga's notion of how to keep its character is a yolo wagon but make it so other tier Xs don't literally hide from it.

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