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Kuroialty

Rebalance of Preferential Premiums (starting w/ KV-5)

22 posts in this topic

just stop fucking talking about it in status updates and actually make a thread about it already, goddamn

https://worldoftanks.com/en/news/general-news/preferential-premiums-perfection/

Quote

The first issue comes from the main feature of preferential Premiums—tier-range balance. Starting from mid tiers, all vehicles have the –2/+2 tier range. This means that if you’re rolling out in your King Tiger, you could find yourself on top of the list with clumsy Churchills or tiny AMX 12t’s. On the other hand, there are chances to land at the very bottom, facing mighty IS-4’s and fearsome T95s.

With preferential Tier VIII Premiums, you won’t encounter an opponent higher than Tier IX, which should make life easier. But the new matchmaker struggles with these machines. It takes more time and computations for the tool to balance them properly, which extends queuing time. This is what happens next: the matchmaker starts grabbing an excessive number of Tier IX tanks to fill up team rosters for preferential Premiums, so they become deficient when it comes to forming teams for Tier X machines. The matchmaker then looks for something to fill the gaps for Tier X’s, and look who’s here. Hello, Tier VIII’s! Come here, little fellas.

The second issue is preferential Premiums' combat specs. They always were lower than what the competition had—for the sake of balance. After 9.18 came out with the 3/5/7 distribution rule and its derivatives, preferential Prems would often fight against vehicles of the same tier or higher, which means they find themselves on an uneven playing field. Imagine you’re commanding your KV-5 and in the vast majority of cases you’re somewhere in the middle, up against a full stack of IS-3’s, Ferdinands, Pershings, and other top Tier VIII folks. Add a couple of Tier IX’s to the equation, and your chances of surviving aren’t that pretty.

...

The “local” direction was to opt for an individual approach to every model, bringing the changes they need and thus reducing the overall negative impact made by preferential Premiums on the matchmaker. After a series of tests, this proved to be the go-to solution but caused another problem. Some of the current preferential Prems are so “old” in terms of combat characteristics that simply dragging slider boxes with their specs won’t help. It turned out some vehicles require major revisions, while we also want to maintain the same character they have now.

We don’t want to turn an assault tank into an ambush vehicle. We want to preserve or even emphasize their distinct features.

At the same time, we plan to give players the opportunity to decide whether an updated tank is relevant for them. Accordingly, every tanker can exchange a particular machine through the special trade-in option for an exclusive list of tanks not available in the common trade-in (don't worry, tanks available in the common trade in are also included). The cost of this kind of exchange will not exceed 2,000 Gold.

...

We mentioned the KV-5 for a reason, as it will be the very first tank to go through the overhaul. The reason we chose this vehicle is that it’s the ultimate experimental subject: a veteran preferential Premium tank that stands out thanks to its combat role and characteristics. It meets all our requirements better than any other on the list.

...

We’ll start implementing these changes for Supertest almost immediately. The first iteration of testing will kick off within the next week, and the final list of changes will greatly depend on how the updated KV-5 feels and delivers in battle.

Considering the above improvements, the KV-5 will become a competitive combat vehicle capable of withstanding any opponent effectively. Moreover, the overhauled vehicle will be able to oppose Tier X vehicles. The cost of these improvements is the standard range of battles, no preferential matchmaking that will no longer be needed with the new technical characteristics.

I wonder if they're going to start with all tier 8s and work their way down.  Tier 2 has a few preferential premiums, and even one tech tree tank that only sees one tier.

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I imagine that they will start with the Tier 8 tanks first, as these are the ones that are likely causing the biggest impact on the MM, plus they are also the most plentiful in number. Any premiums between tier 5 and tier 7 that has pref MM will likely get rebalanced too. Below that I can't see them caring too much, to be honest.

Hard to see how this will go, to be honest, the KV5 stuff seems insufficient to make a slow 'super-heavy' relevant in the current tier-10 meta, especially when it still has the kind of frontal weakspots that it currently has. It will likely be underpowered, but the KV5 is probably, along with the Super-P and Jag-88, the hardest of the tier 8 pref-MM premiums to balance because they rely on armour, and you can't let tier 8 tanks have armour relevant against tier 10s and not be broken when top tier.

The other tier 8s though are probably okay. The IS6, 111 and 112 are probably okay with just penetration buffs. The 34-3 and Type probably okay too, maybe with some gun handling thrown in. The FCM will need both gun-handling and DPM.

The bigger problems are the pref Tier 7s. I can't see how they can rebalance the E25, AT15A or the Panther M/10 to make them relevant against tier 9 tanks without making them even more completely broken when they are top tier.

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The buffed kv-5 might be bad in tier 10, but I’ll gladly take it over the version we have now that’s bad in tier 8 matches.

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45 minutes ago, Tupinambis said:

The buffed kv-5 might be bad in tier 10, but I’ll gladly take it over the version we have now that’s bad in tier 8 matches.

The same tanks that trump the KV5 currently, are still going to trump it after these changes. All these changes accomplish is, that the KV5 becomes better at stomping lower tiers, which is quite possibly the one thing that nobody whatsoever needs at this point in the game's balance cycle.

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What really nags me about the changes is the reselling option for more gold... i have a lot of pref MM tanks and since MM is is so fucked up, i rarely even play T8 at all... i also dont want to get fucked over in 85% T9-10 matches. and this will happen if they dont change the Matchmaker shit.

Does anyone know if there is at least a slight chance to get compensatet with real money? (Like the super P incident) I mean, i live in the EU and i think we have laws for things like that. On the other hand i assume WG coordinatet a change like this with their in house legal team :/

This sums up the situation pretty good i think

 

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The Turret needs to be stronger so a high roll from an is3 doesnt pen you. 250+. 

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Well I'm going to miss them for sure. But I'll gladly give an obsolete IS6 for a defender for just 2k gold. Because it will remain obsolete. KV5 buffs were nothing. it will still be Swiss cheese frontally from tier 8 and up. 

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12 minutes ago, kariverson said:

Well I'm going to miss them for sure. But I'll gladly give an obsolete IS6 for a defender for just 2k gold. Because it will remain obsolete. KV5 buffs were nothing. it will still be Swiss cheese frontally from tier 8 and up. 

It has weakspots (something rare these days) so the non weakspot armor should be super strong. Still I'd like to get some ramming done so I hope they buff it so I will play it again

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3 minutes ago, hazzgar said:

It has weakspots (something rare these days) so the non weakspot armor should be super strong. Still I'd like to get some ramming done so I hope they buff it so I will play it again

Thickest point is still just 220mm so every tier 9 with top gun will continue to autoaim it and pen most of the times.


But if they do give Defenders for KV5s and IS6s imagine the amount of Defenders in games afterwards... 

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2 hours ago, kariverson said:

Thickest point is still just 220mm so every tier 9 with top gun will continue to autoaim it and pen most of the times.


But if they do give Defenders for KV5s and IS6s imagine the amount of Defenders in games afterwards... 

Unless they buff the tanks to Defender level of performance, why would you keep either Kv5 or IS-6, other than nostalgia?

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the buffed kv5 would have better armor than the Oho, which is more than armored enough even in tier 10 matches.

Not to mention 2300 dpm (with 100% loader, so 2400+ with 110% loader due to cmdr) which is absolutely nuts.

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5 hours ago, kariverson said:

Thickest point is still just 220mm so every tier 9 with top gun will continue to autoaim it and pen most of the times.


But if they do give Defenders for KV5s and IS6s imagine the amount of Defenders in games afterwards... 

You misunderstood me. I'm saying it should, not that it will be. It should be 250+ not 220. 

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11 hours ago, Madner Kami said:

The same tanks that trump the KV5 currently, are still going to trump it after these changes. All these changes accomplish is, that the KV5 becomes better at stomping lower tiers, which is quite possibly the one thing that nobody whatsoever needs at this point in the game's balance cycle.

I think you’re massively underrating the pen buff. The KV-5 will now actually have some capacity to fight back against other tier 8 superheavies. The O-Ho isn’t going to be literally untouchable anymore.

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I have to agree with Tupin here; the KV-5's weakness has not historically been tanks that could pen it, but tanks that it couldn't pen. Without that, there is no such thing a favorable brawl against a good KV-5. The armor buffs are fairly inconsequential compared to gaining 220 AP.

While it's undeniably enough to peel off pref MM, I don't know how I feel about the changes. Pulling down the side and rear armor & buffing the front makes it feel like a generic heavy. Utilizing the armor scheme has always been one of the most unique bits of the vehicle.

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38 minutes ago, Rexxie said:

Pulling down the side and rear armor & buffing the front makes it feel like a generic heavy.

Now driving backwards is no longer a valid tactic.

 

"Preserving the characteristics of the vehicle" my fucking arse. 

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2 hours ago, MagicalFlyingFox said:

Now driving backwards is no longer a valid tactic.

 

"Preserving the characteristics of the vehicle" my fucking arse. 

If you can rename the radioman to Murazor, would you still want to drive backwards?

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So, If I were to hypothetically switch my 'rebalanced' SP plus 2k gold for a T34 that is already in my garage, would I get 12k gold for it?

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On 5/23/2018 at 4:46 AM, Action said:

What really nags me about the changes is the reselling option for more gold... i have a lot of pref MM tanks and since MM is is so fucked up, i rarely even play T8 at all... i also dont want to get fucked over in 85% T9-10 matches. and this will happen if they dont change the Matchmaker shit.

Does anyone know if there is at least a slight chance to get compensatet with real money? (Like the super P incident) I mean, i live in the EU and i think we have laws for things like that. On the other hand i assume WG coordinatet a change like this with their in house legal team :/


You realize the KV-5 is valued at 7500 gold and most T8 premiums are currently in the 10k-11.5K gold range?

Under the current "trade-in" scheme a player receives half the value of the trade-in and has to fund the gold difference.   Even though its not announced; it looks like (with the KV-5 at least) players are trading in at full value and have to contribute the difference (reportedly up 2k gold).  Seems like a great deal to get rid of shit tank(s) no one plays anymore and if a player likes the buffs they are not obligated to "trade in" at all...  seems win/win/win to me

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59 minutes ago, 8_Hussars said:


You realize the KV-5 is valued at 7500 gold and most T8 premiums are currently in the 10k-11.5K gold range?

Under the current "trade-in" scheme a player receives half the value of the trade-in and has to fund the gold difference.   Even though its not announced; it looks like (with the KV-5 at least) players are trading in at full value and have to contribute the difference (reportedly up 2k gold).  Seems like a great deal to get rid of shit tank(s) no one plays anymore and if a player likes the buffs they are not obligated to "trade in" at all...  seems win/win/win to me

I think the concept is problematic partly because of the tank value goes onto it being a pref, regardless of it shits or not. People went full alarmed as they have to pay extra money in order to make the tank worthy only because WG fucked up balancing and matchmaking and has to take away its pref value. Basically saying its "trading" in a way trying to fool people for extra credits.

First they sell it as something else then they turn it into something else entirely that not everybody originally wanted, only refer it as "Situation has changed", to make sense for an extra "trade". This sounds more like a business trap where the sellers pushing all the responsibilities to the customers but in fact they are manipulating the environment for them to grasp more.

Let's say you bought a phone, advertised to have a nice front camera. In fact also comes with a flawed monitor. Few years later the company announce a "fix" for the monitor which is to get rid of the front camera completely, service charge a hundred quid. No a particularly good example but there you go.

Its not the value for gold that posed questions, its a good excuse for creating illusions the point is still, not selling what originally as advertised that fools people into the deal. Now people have to make another decision to pay more otherwise a possibility to lose advantages over the paid ones, forced decision. If that is the case KV-5 owner originally thought to happen it makes complete sense, but clearly we are not.

I own quite a pile of pref-mm prems, I still remember how much it cost for the big-head Mutant6, their price tag comes along with their pref-mm. Once they are allowed that strategy to happen for once, there is nothing to stop them to apply that to all other pref-mm, nasty business strategy.

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5 hours ago, Unavailebow said:

I own quite a pile of pref-mm prems, I still remember how much it cost for the big-head Mutant6, their price tag comes along with their pref-mm.

Ugh, don't remind me. Mutant6 is fun but at that price....

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The O-Ho already has 200mm of flat armour, still seem to bounce of them enough with tier 10 guns and that tank is stupidly strong in tier 8s.

That KV-5 will be stupidly strong, near 1800 hit points and close to 2.4k base DPM with 320 alpha and good pen? Doesn't really matter if you don't bounce much (which you will cos you'll have to hit the flat spots, and RNG will mean plenty of shots will hit the rounded parts)

 

Still not buying that pref-MM tanks are ruining the MM, it's the template system, if you have only 3 tier 10s, then you need 7 tier 8s, that is the fundamental issue here, if the 3-5-7 template is a the priority then for every 3 tier 10 tanks, 7 tier 8s are going to get dragged in.

Not enough pref tanks are played to make a difference, on vbaddict the most played tier 8 pref is the Super P and it's down at like 19th, the rest are way below.

 

Also if they allow the Defender to be a trade in option then tier 8 is fucked beyond belief because very IS-6 player will swap it and we'll have 8 Defenders on every team.

That or they are going to end up over buffing the IS-6 so much is becomes the new Defender. 

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On 5/25/2018 at 5:04 PM, tajj7 said:

Also if they allow the Defender to be a trade in option then tier 8 is fucked beyond belief because very IS-6 player will swap it and we'll have 8 Defenders on every team.

You know, that is the exact ideal scenario WG business derps want.

Buffing instead, takes extra effort but 0 income.

I think most of us thinks the same way, it’s 3-5-7 that they used as a tool “We are sorry for our business mistake, please provide us some more funds so we can work on its consequences”, and whisper to colleague “Any consequence just not the cause itself.” Jumping from any possible solutions to execution seems too obvious to me.

I was thinking what they will do with 34-3 and Type-59, it’s not like 59-patton is doing any good for the trade. Same goes to E-25, Mutant6, FCM or anything so unique in its kind.

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