Sign in to follow this  
Hîr-am-Helcaraxë

Obj 277 - Just a worse 5A?

28 posts in this topic

I don't seem to be able to find a 277 topic and this fact per se should be indicative of its mediocrity and mehity in general but I thought I could start one with the most obvious -and problably only needed- question: is this really just a worse 5A?

The nerf bat hit hard just before the releas of this tank, it was in a borderline OP state imo but maybe that was too hard. To be fair it has something going for it to distinguish itself from the 5A but I really can't feel if that's enough to be even able to be something fresh and different. As alway I'm not looking for a better version of the already available tanks but rather for something new and to be fair to WG I really feel like this was the original intent however timidly expressed. Sadly they have no balls whatsoever, they didn't want to risk a new v4 and the morons at the head of the balance department are too powerful and scary so that any good idea is quashed before maturing.

Let's go back to topic to see the diffrences between this two tanks and maybe the IS-7 just for reference.

Obj. 277 pluses are:
+ 265 silver pen against 250, not bad at all (jic someone didn't noticed they lowered gold pen to the normal 340 with 1k m/s speed just before release)
+ .38 accuracy against .39 (5A) and .40 (IS-7) with better dispersion than the 5A. I feel this is marginal.
+ better p/w ratio but compensated by worse ground resistances and 5 more kph top speed

5A has for it:
+ better dpm, 5.36 base rof against 4.8 (277) and 4.38 (IS-7). I'm not a dpm fanboy as the theoretic dpm is seldom used in "real life", reloading in 1.3 second less than a 277 and in 2.5 seconds less than an IS-7 is huge though. The IS-7 can use a bit more effective dpm by being able to expose more thanks to better armour but again the flexibility of the 5A allows it to use more positions and not be fucked by wierd angles
+ 2.50 aim time against 2.70 (277) and 2.90 (IS-7) although with the dispersion they have, good crews and equip you basically have NO aimtime so this is almost irrelevant
+ 7° of gun depression against 5.5° (277) and 6° (IS-), this is quite a bit, you are viable in so many more locations.
+ better ground resistances and 36°/s traverse vs 32°/s (277) and 28°/s (IS-7) render this a bit more faster to react a flex, the worse p/w ration limits this a bit.

Just to give a more complete picture the IS-7 has:
+ armour
--- 303 gold pen lol

Ok so it seems we have silver penetration (277) VS dpm and flexibility (5A) VS armour (IS-7). I can't really feel which one is better as mobility goes, can someone please share their experience on this? It feels like the IS-7 better mobility is just a hoax, it has basically the same p/w as the 277 (a bit more even), the same groud res and 5 kph better top speed but the 277 feel a LOT faster. How is that? It never reaches its top speed (a part downhill of course) by a lot, I'm not saying it has poor mobility, just worse than the other two.
Also the armour: 5A vs 277, are they basically the same? I can't get the feel. How's the IS-7 armour nowdays? Is it worth to have this better armour paying the gun stat price if everyone shoots gold at you? I mean if the 277 and 5A armour if used correcly is good enough to bounce silver why not get something esle instead of more armour? Or is IS-7 armour still reliable against gold?

What about the 430U? That feels basically the same class (heavium) but I didn't remember it but I'm lazy so I'm not rewriting all just to insert this. It has way better groud res and amazing traverse but worse p/w and top speed. How's the armor? How's the gun hanling?

In the end, is 5A still meta? I feel like the 277 problem in its current stat is the 5A: you buff the 277 you get an OP tank, you nerf it and you get a useless tank. I tried and suggest this during the test but oddly enough they didn't listen to thoughful feedback but just to the whining feedback:

Quote

"If you didn't nerf the 277 we'd have had another TOO good tier 10, now you nerfed it and we have a useless tier 10. Changing the stats of the 277 leads to nothing in any case, the solution is simply nerf the WZ-111 5A to reasonable levels. You can even do it by not having two clone vehicles, Just make the 5A more flexible (gun depression, gun handling) and the 277 better as an aggressive heavium (better dpm basically). Now the 5A the most comfortable and easy heavy to play and hase insane dpm with good survivability.
As long as the 5A is in this state you can't balance the 277 AND make it not useless."

That was imo a decent solution for having 2 different tanks and not just one being a better version than the other, of a bit diffrent but still one clearly better and one clearly worse.
Or am I biased by the dpm and gun depression of the 5A? Of course being "a bit worse than the 5A" doesn't mean being a bad tank by any stretch of the imagination.

Some end attached questions:
- What would you suggest to a player that already has a 5A, to still get the 277 or the IS-7 for a change?
- What would you suggest to a new (but decent) player as his FIRST tier 10 between the 277 and the IS-7? Is the IS-7 still comfortable for new players in 2018 or the power creep is too hard?

Please share your thoughts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

An ASIA server unicum write up

 

 

View PostDefiant_Duck, on 12 July 2018 - 09:54 AM, said:

The Object 277 vs the Wz-111-5A. Here we go!

FIrepower:
The 5A is the winner of this category. The 277 is noticeably more accurate, it doesn't donk as many of its shots. The 277 has better moving dispersion but the 5A has a slightly better aim time. The biggest difference between the two tanks would be their DPM. The 5A has a 1 second faster reload giving it over 300+ DPM than the 277. The 5A also has much better gun depression (-7 degrees) than the 277 (5.5 degrees) giving it more flexibility when working rigdes.

Armour:

The 277 wins in this category. The 277 has very good armour better designed for bouncing incoming rounds than the 5A. Both turrets are strong but the 5A has two large and annoying cupolas whilst the 277 only has a small flat one. The 277's hull shape is very similar to that on the 907. Its got a well sloped curved front and side armour that is sloped inwards giving it a "v" shaped hull. The advantage of the 277's 907-like hull compared to the 5A's pike nose is that the armour thickness is much more consistent and more troll as well. Regardless of what angle the 277's hull is angled at, some parts of the hull will always be at an auto ricochet angle. I've had HEAT spamming E-100s and T30's drive out and try to put off shots without fully aiming (clearly underestimating the capability the hull armour) and bouncing right off. The 5A's hull on the other hand is alright but is much easier to pen because its more rigid and it losses effectiveness when angled. Both tanks have spaced side armour which help absorb HEAT rounds and reduce damage done by HE, I won't go into detail but they both do their job.

Mobility:
The winner of this category is the 277 hands down. The 5A has considerably good mobility. 50km top speed with decent ground resistances, good traverse speed, and a respectable power to weight ratio of about 15. The 277 just throws all that crap out the window because its just proven to me it runs on magic. I'm going to digress a bit here but I think its going to help emphasis what I'm about say about the 277's mobility. The 277 and the IS-7 both have IDENTICAL ground resistances. However, the IS-7 has a higher top speed and a slightly better power to weight ratio. But for some reason the 277 runs faster in a straight line than an IS-7 (huh how does that work???). The 277 is ludicrously fast for a HT. It has great acceleration and a high top speed of 55km allowing it to out run a lot of mediums and relocate from one side of the map to another with ease. 
CFpWUvB.png

Overall Opinion:

Imo both tanks powerful and formidable machines on the battlefield. However the 277 would be the better than in pub matches as it is slightly more adaptable than the 5A and I highly recommend new players to try grind for it as it more noob-friendly and helps teach and get new players into playing the role of a frontline heavy. But the 5A would be the better choice for more experienced players because it offers more of a challenge. When it comes to clan wars, the 277 has not replaced the 5A (5A is still meta yay!). The 277 (from personal experience) is used to take and hold positions during clan wars. For example, 277's were used (by a clan I won't mention) to storm up the hill on malinovka and hold the top. Because they got to the top before the 5As did meant that they had the battle in their favour. On the other hand, a battle I had on Ensk (which is a very flat map). The 5A's easily out brawled the 277s thanks to its better DPM. So both tanks have their strengths and weakness and I guess its up to you guys to decided on which one you think is better. Hope you guys found this useful. :)

Pardon the formatting.

 

2 hours ago, Hîr-am-Helcaraxë said:

Some end attached questions:
- What would you suggest to a player that already has a 5A, to still get the 277 or the IS-7 for a change?
- What would you suggest to a new (but decent) player as his FIRST tier 10 between the 277 and the IS-7? Is the IS-7 still comfortable for new players in 2018 or the power creep is too hard?

1 - Really doesn't matter, the 277 is more closer to the 5A though if they want something closer to a 5A. 

2- IS-7 is more idiotproof and I don't think anyone is at a skill level where they will do better in the 277 as their first tier 10. IS-7 is still extremely competitive, it hasn't really been powercrept to oblivion because its armour is mainly in the turret thickness and sloping. Corridors have helped it more than anything and APCR goes through almost everything anyway. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We (VILIN) are using them a bit more when, like the above description, we need more mobility. Himmels hill play, Prok, Cliff, etc. Otherwise, we use 5As for that role

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Current meta - go for 5A.

277 is just a touch worse.

IS-7 was playable 7 years ago, now it's weak (303 APCR is just lol).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, igorCRO said:

IS-7 was playable 7 years ago, now it's weak (303 APCR is just lol).

U wot m8?

IS-7 (LFP excluded) is pretty much immune to to T10 standard rounds, while still trolling HEAT and APCR something like half the time. The sheer amount of amour the tank hauls around together with the speed with which it hauls around said armour makes the IS-7 an assault tank without peer. The shit gun doesn't matter when you are able to dictate most engagements you come across - if not turn them around entirely.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can anyone explain the mobility difference between 277 and IS7? Higher weight of IS7 means inertia plays the role in new physics? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think mobility is a function of mass, terrain resistances and engine power. 


So actual acceleration (and traverse?) is based on a formula with those parameters. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, MagicalFlyingFox said:

I think mobility is a function of mass, terrain resistances and engine power. 


So actual acceleration (and traverse?) is based on a formula with those parameters. 

Yeah but most people assume it's power to weight and the mobility seems different despite same hp/t

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, lavawing said:

U wot m8?

IS-7 (LFP excluded) is pretty much immune to to T10 standard rounds, while still trolling HEAT and APCR something like half the time. The sheer amount of amour the tank hauls around together with the speed with which it hauls around said armour makes the IS-7 an assault tank without peer. The shit gun doesn't matter when you are able to dictate most engagements you come across - if not turn them around entirely.

I think you're playing a different IS7 than most of the server, then.

its armor is bad beyond the turret, and then you're going to be up against Type 5's with prem HE anyway.
The mobility is good: When going downhill.
The gun handling means close range engagement only, which will mean even more accurate Type 5 shells.

Everything the IS7 was good at, theres now 3-4 Heaviums which can take what the IS7 does but only slightly worse, while doing other things MUCH better.
Hull Down: Super Conq with better APCR and DPM
Mobility: 5A, 113, 277 and while having just enough armor in the turret, along with the 5A and 113 having better depression to work many of the same positions as the IS7 previously could
Gun handling: Super Conq, 5A, 113, and 277 all rape the IS7 there, along with better premium ammo

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

IS-7 is very good at facerolling lower tiers but other than that, eh. Hulldown capacities are nice, but the 277 doesnt have that much worse turret, anyway (the cupola is smol and covered by BS spaced armor the optics provide). Gun is way worse in every metric as well.

Pen is what hurts the IS-7 the most, though

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

IS-7 is shit now that I learned where to shoot its turret with 340/350 heat for the dank 50/50 pens.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, TheMarine0341 said:

I think you're playing a different IS7 than most of the server, then.

its armor is bad beyond the turret, and then you're going to be up against Type 5's with prem HE anyway.
The mobility is good: When going downhill.
The gun handling means close range engagement only, which will mean even more accurate Type 5 shells.

Everything the IS7 was good at, theres now 3-4 Heaviums which can take what the IS7 does but only slightly worse, while doing other things MUCH better.
Hull Down: Super Conq with better APCR and DPM
Mobility: 5A, 113, 277 and while having just enough armor in the turret, along with the 5A and 113 having better depression to work many of the same positions as the IS7 previously could
Gun handling: Super Conq, 5A, 113, and 277 all rape the IS7 there, along with better premium ammo

 

The tank was buffed. You are talking about pre buff mobility and handling.

 

As for armor 300+ frontally. It's better armored than a type5, smaller. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

277 mobility from what I have seen and from playing it on test seems a lot better than the other heaviums, even though it does not appear to be that much better on paper.

But more we should just rejoice that WG brought a new tier 10 tank into the game, that was neither OP, nor power creep, nor shit. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, hazzgar said:

The tank was buffed. You are talking about pre buff mobility and handling.

 

As for armor 300+ frontally. It's better armored than a type5, smaller. 

No. Post buff. Armor is certainly not better than a type 5 either. One could only argue that when the IS7 is hull down, and only engaging from 1 angle. As soon as the IS7 must engage from more than 1 angle or faces HE, that pike nose gets weak as hell or it'll struggle to pen most other HTs. Hell, it doesn't even need to be but a 20-30 degree angle and the pike is vulnerable to HEAT, especially at the cheek area.

8GDXjzq.png

 

As soon as you're not directly pointed at your enemy, you're vulnerable. The low pen and terrible gun handling mean you must expose yourself longer. 95% of the player base has no clue how to actually angle and minimize exposure

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/23/2018 at 2:00 PM, MagicalFlyingFox said:

An ASIA server unicum write up

Thanks, that post really answers most of doubts, I didn't find that and I always forget about the Asia forum.

Seems like the general consensus is that 277 is slighly inferior to the 5A in some aspects, superior in others and overall still a very strong tank. I tried them both extesively and in various configurations in the just ended test server, in which as usual you can't properly test much but rather just get a feel, expecially about mobility where the 277 shines and outclasses the IS-7 and the 5A too. This tanks and to a lesser extent the IS-7 are really very similar in many regards, just variations of the same flavour. In a way this is a bit sad beacuse with the time WoT is slowly becoming 50 shades of the same tank.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not entirely sure how they are trying to shoehorn the IS-7 as when it works better nowadays as a forward anchor where you only need to shoot 1 direction and poke in/out of cover. Sure the 277 and 5A are just better tanks in most situations, the IS-7 is still not that shit and the side armour profile is just as stupid as it was 7 years ago. The gun also isn't that bad since it is Russian and the gun handling is only shit if you are shooting after moving quickly which of course its bad because its not quite the 277 or 5A. 

 

In the hands of a lesser skilled player, they would be heaps more useful in an IS-7 because of the retarded side armour and really simple playstyle of go to position, shoot shit, go forward into another position and repeat if not dead, which the IS-7 is better at than the 5A and 277. 

Its like calling the 62A a shit tank. Sure, there are are lot of tanks that outclass it but its still a russian med and you get what you get. Its still a solid tier 10 medium tank. Sure the 140 is the same thing but better, but still, its a good tank. 

59 minutes ago, Hîr-am-Helcaraxë said:

I always forget about the Asia forum.

Even Wargaming forget we exist :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, TheMarine0341 said:

No. Post buff. Armor is certainly not better than a type 5 either. One could only argue that when the IS7 is hull down, and only engaging from 1 angle. As soon as the IS7 must engage from more than 1 angle or faces HE, that pike nose gets weak as hell or it'll struggle to pen most other HTs. Hell, it doesn't even need to be but a 20-30 degree angle and the pike is vulnerable to HEAT, especially at the cheek area.

8GDXjzq.png

 

As soon as you're not directly pointed at your enemy, you're vulnerable. The low pen and terrible gun handling mean you must expose yourself longer. 95% of the player base has no clue how to actually angle and minimize exposure

 

First of all the post buff comment was about speed and gun handling. Speed as said before has been massively buffed and on paper it should be as fast as a 277. It's slower but not by much. It used to be slow. It isn't. It especially isn't for something with 260-330 frontal armor depending on how you angle, strongest turret in the game and side armor with black holes in it. 

As soon as you're not directly pointed at your enemy your frontal armor is the same as a type5. So if you badly angle your tank you get same hull armor as a badly angled type5 while if you are a good player with a more skill than a donkey then you peak only showing your outside shoulder. What is more it's not "As soon as you are not directly pointed you are vulnerable" when you are directly pointed at someone your armor is at 308-330 if the enemy tank is high, to 318-340 if it's low. You can angle 15 degrees and still be at 280mm. What you are showing is actually around 25 degres. So unless you badly angle you are very hard to pen with standard rounds. 

Yeah the hull is vulnerable to HE and HEAT but so is EVERY OTHER HULL besides a Maus and Sconq (which will be penned by prem acpr and high pen standard rounds so lol). 

Also you get side trollish side armor that will absorb shots and heat is very bad against your side unless aimed perfectly while Type5 eats heat to the side like a bitch.

 

What is more armor works in relation to speed - before someone switches from AP to HEAT or manages to shoot you the second time you will be able to cover 2-3x the distance a type5 covers. This means in many situations you will get into a position where you can maximize your armor. Type5 cannot maximize it's armor. It has a ton of armor but when gives you lower armor values when played well. What is more having heat prone turret is a big problem since you know you have your gun there so you have to expose it.

 

 

As for "IS7 has bad gun handing" LOL. See attached file. Best in class bloom (better than 277) is bad gun handling? On planet opposite?

Bad gun handling.JPG

7 hours ago, MagicalFlyingFox said:

I'm not entirely sure how they are trying to shoehorn the IS-7 as when it works better nowadays as a forward anchor where you only need to shoot 1 direction and poke in/out of cover. Sure the 277 and 5A are just better tanks in most situations, the IS-7 is still not that shit and the side armour profile is just as stupid as it was 7 years ago. The gun also isn't that bad since it is Russian and the gun handling is only shit if you are shooting after moving quickly which of course its bad because its not quite the 277 or 5A. 

 

In the hands of a lesser skilled player, they would be heaps more useful in an IS-7 because of the retarded side armour and really simple playstyle of go to position, shoot shit, go forward into another position and repeat if not dead, which the IS-7 is better at than the 5A and 277. 

Its like calling the 62A a shit tank. Sure, there are are lot of tanks that outclass it but its still a russian med and you get what you get. Its still a solid tier 10 medium tank. Sure the 140 is the same thing but better, but still, its a good tank. 

Even Wargaming forget we exist :P

IS7 actually has better bloom than 277 and 5a. Just a slightly slower shell, slightly worse aim time. Use ACPR for speed and it snipes even better than they do. Only the pen is a problem. If prem pen on is7 was 330 acpr it would be stomping the shit out of people

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is funny to see when people say that IS-7 is good for average/bad players...

Ive seen so many baddies in IS-7 not being able to connect the shell, not even mentioning that they cant pen shit.

All 50%ers and lower in their IS-7 have post game stats like this:

10 shots fired / 3 hits / 1 pen lol

The only worse HT would be 260.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, igorCRO said:

It is funny to see when people say that IS-7 is good for average/bad players...

Ive seen so many baddies in IS-7 not being able to connect the shell, not even mentioning that they cant pen shit.

All 50%ers and lower in their IS-7 have post game stats like this:

10 shots fired / 3 hits / 1 pen lol

The only worse HT would be 260.

Low pen tanks are bad for players who refuse to spam gold. Especially heavies since that means fighting other heavies (for most pubbies) and frontal engagements. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also IS7 has weak gold ammo so even using gold ammo wont save IS7 for bad players. Going against angled Type5 with IS7 and even with gold loaded it gets really hard to get reliable pens, whereas 340heat tanks can just blaze away without much aiming. I bet IS7 would be commonly used in Clan wars if it had 340 heat.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

IS-7 is a balanced 268 V4 that's a heavy and has weakspots. 5A, 277 are more like super mediums than anything else.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The gun on the 5a is the best communist damage dealer in the game, but the armor is probably the worst among the RU/Chinese heavies.  Its the only one that has a turret that cannot be relied upon, but the added gun depression helps make up for the armor.

I think the 5a is a little better, but only a little and the 277 can take hills the 5a can't.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A sub 50%er wouldn't do well in anything, the only reason why they'd do better in an IS-7 is probably because they fire HE and will survive longer because IS-7 armour. 

Its also why they do so well in the Type 5. 

 

All the sub 50%ers will use the 277 and 5A for is to die quickly because they are easily penned and travel quickly. Can't fire 10 shots when you die before you fire twice. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.