Assassin7

Elimination: Tier 9 - 2018

240 posts in this topic

The best tank is the tank with the highest performance when all tanks are played to perfection. The highest potential literally results in the actual best tank because when all tanks are played perfectly this one outperforms. I genuinely can’t put it simpler, and I know I’m right because it keeps happening with consistency. 

As your performance gets better your teammates/enemies start to matter less. It’s not a one man game, but your WR/DPG is your own.  Enough games paint a decent picture and you’ve been likely getting both ends of the stick regarding MM, and as you start singlehandedly winning games everything but your performance/tank capability is irrelevant because you want to win as much as possible in a randomised environment where the only thing you can truly control is you and your tank. So those are the things that matter. You even had this exact meta in NA CW before back when E5 was just so much better than other tanks. NA CW was 15v15 E5s brawling it out most of the time because it was simply the tank that gave you the best shot at winning

 

+1 T-54

- 3 VKB - lower plate nerf was not deserved and it made the tank go from niche to shit

 

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35 minutes ago, Kolni said:

The best tank is the tank with the highest performance when all tanks are played to perfection. The highest potential literally results in the actual best tank because when all tanks are played perfectly this one outperforms. I genuinely can’t put it simpler, and I know I’m right because it keeps happening with consistency. 

As your performance gets better your teammates/enemies start to matter less. It’s not a one man game, but your WR/DPG is your own.  Enough games paint a decent picture and you’ve been likely getting both ends of the stick regarding MM, and as you start singlehandedly winning games everything but your performance/tank capability is irrelevant because you want to win as much as possible in a randomised environment where the only thing you can truly control is you and your tank. So those are the things that matter. You even had this exact meta in NA CW before back when E5 was just so much better than other tanks. NA CW was 15v15 E5s brawling it out most of the time because it was simply the tank that gave you the best shot at winning

+1 T-54

- 3 VKB - lower plate nerf was not deserved and it made the tank go from niche to shit

 

As I have said, ranking best tanks according to how they perform for best players is no more objective than ranking best tanks on how they perform to the worst of the worst, the scum of the fucking earth, as it were. I.e. both are relative (not necessarily subjective) to one's own performance.

At this point I think it's mostly semantics. Your best tanks are best tanks to the best players, my best tanks are tanks that perform for everyone regardless of skill level. As I see it, the best tanks that emerge out of this thread are probably going to be good tanks that good players enjoy playing, rather than the best tanks for winning/DPGs for good players. TBH other than the T-54/T-10 difference for good players and very good players, regardless of which metric or metrics are used, it's going to end with the same tanks as @mati_14 said.

Time would be spent more productively eliminating the worst Tier 9 TDs in order of their badness - rather than persisting with what is basically a bottomless debate on what constitutes 'best' tanks.

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Well I think the point of this thread is completely misinterpreted by everyone including myself.

I interpreted this as an objective Tier Listing and put in my 2c on that based on what I had played and what current meta is.
If it is meant to be subjective then so be it. Might as well be no different than public forums at this point.

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9 hours ago, Kolni said:

Highest probability of a relevant game impact is what I value, and there are tanks that when played right skyrocket up in value from an otherwise bad spot. FV4005, Maus (before the stupid buff), FV215b and tanks generally regarded as bad somehow held real value in ESL/Comp/Randoms because you can’t judge a tank based on a player not able to play it well. 

Imagine F1 or whatever: Mercedes releases a new engine. Are you seriously going to put an average driver in to test it out? Obviously not. You put Hamilton in so he can push its limits and get real value out of the performance. You’re not going to be able to push or minmax anything to its limits with average players, so the top dictates what is objectively the best. Subjective experiences I’m all for, but all players who can’t compete at that level are not relevant. Avg stats matter for the healthiness of the game as the average make up so much of the playerbase, but it’s also the root cause of the poor gameplay quality the game suffers through because testing is only made on lower spectrum ends when certain characteristics are boosted exponentially with player skill (aka how you break the game). 

That’s why from an objective PoV the average simply doesn’t matter. T95 might be the best tank for more players than a T-54, but that T-54 is a hell of a lot better for the other players. A tank having a 60% global WR is a problem, but it caps out at 70% is objectively a worse tank than a tank with a 47% global WR capping out around the 80s because it is better at winning. Harder to play means a worse average but generelly higher caps. This is the entire reason WN8 got broken because RU meds were stupidly good for a small part of the playerbase while the majority did poorly. 62A still has a terrible average but Poltto went over 70%WR over 1k games in it solo. Outlier ahead of time -> The average isn’t accurate, it only tells you generalised data and doesn’t account for invention or simply gameplay at a level that only a handful of people can understand. If you want objectively the best tank the way to find out is to put the top 50 players in and spam randoms to evaluate their performance which will actually give the right answer to the question of what tank is the best when the players playing it don’t matter. Otherwise it’s all subjective and an average will never tell the whole story. 

This is a subjective topic, but average statistics don’t have a place here or regarding viability. It only matters to the audience it’s targeted to - the average. It’ll align nicely with most people but the curve will deviate more the further up you go, and at the top it’s so far apart from the average that it could very well be a different game entirely. 

I agree average is bad but good for light purples still means kinda good. 

 

btw. 70% in a t62a? I struggle in it as fuck. 

Added votes by Kolni

 

T-10: 28
AMX M4 51: 24
T49: 24

T-54: 26
Conqueror: 23
WZ-111 1-4: 23+1=24 (I like the t10 more but I want to split my votes not vote t10 all the time). 400 more dpg vs my other t9 tanks but not as high wr strangely
Type 4 Heavy: 22
E50: 21
E75: 21
AMX 30: 21
T30: 20
T95: 21
M46 Patton: 21
B-C 25t AP: 21
Skoda T50: 21
Leopard PTA: 20
Object 704: 20
Object 263: 20
WT Auf Pz. IV: 20
Object 430: 20
ST-I: 20
Tortoise: 20
AMX 13 90: 20
Mauschen: 20
STRV 103-0: 20
50TP: 20
Standard B: 20
Centurion 7/1: 19
T-54 LW: 17
Object 257: 17
WZ-132A: 17
WZ-120: 17
Object 705: 17

Jagdtiger: 17
Conway: 17 - 3 = 14 (M103 is bad but its still better hitting things than this POS and more hp)
VK 4502 (B): 12
T54E1: 15
Foch: 14

Type 61: 11.
WZ-111G FT: 14
Emil II: 8

AMX 50 120: 8
M103: 5

 

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I'm kinda amazed that JT got downvoted so early in the thread.

T-10: 28
T-54: 26
AMX M4 51: 24
T49: 24
WZ-111 1-4: 24
Conqueror: 23
Type 4 Heavy: 22
E50: 21
E75: 21 + 1 = 22 Just so comfy, always felt like I was capable of influencing the battle for the benefit of my team.  And I love the 128mm gun.
AMX 30: 21
T30: 20
T95: 21
M46 Patton: 21
B-C 25t AP: 21
Skoda T50: 21
Leopard PTA: 20
Object 704: 20
Object 263: 20
WT Auf Pz. IV: 20
Object 430: 20
ST-I: 20
Tortoise: 20
AMX 13 90: 20
Mauschen: 20
STRV 103-0: 20
50TP: 20
Standard B: 20
Centurion 7/1: 19
T-54 LW: 17
Object 257: 17
WZ-132A: 17
WZ-120: 17
Object 705: 17
Jagdtiger: 17
T54E1: 15
Conway: 14
Foch: 14
WZ-111G FT: 14
VK 4502 (B): 12 - 3 = 9 Another "looks decent on paper, not good in actual gameplay" tank.  I would play the M103 a thousand times over this.
Type 61: 11.
Emil II: 8
AMX 50 120: 8
M103: 5

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I never expected the thread to be anything more than subjective.  It's a parlor game used to canvass the views of a group of players ranging from slightly above average (me, e.g.) up to genuine unica, and I'm totally okay with that - if you aggregate the views of enough reasonably good players who are willing to put some thought into their responses, I think you'll wind up with an acceptable consensus.  I'd further assert that said consensus can be used by players like myself as a sufficiently accurate barometer of tank quality that you can at least pick out the utter garbage and know what's just not worth even attempting to play, given a choice.  I'm good with that.  Every one of these elimination threads has seen a similar debate about, "what does good mean" - I'm personally totally okay with it being in the eye of the beholder.  Many of the better players have stated and well-known playstyles, or they're willing to qualify their answers with enough thoughtful rationale that you can tell, "well, would it be good for *me*?" within a not-extreme margin of error.  All IMHO, of course, but that applies to the entire thread, too.

(edit) I also enjoy threads like this.  It's good to stimulate some actual discussion, and when I was a forum newbie, threads like this were what grabbed me most, so if this pulls in a few new posters who wonder why they've bothered to show up, that's a pretty good bonus.

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Kolni is right. The definition of best, of absolute best means that a tank can outperform any other tank in any  situation when played to its full potential. If you imagine a game of 15vs15 super computers that can play even better than the best super unicums you would truly see which is the best tank. 

An entirely differnt story is how well a certain tank can perform with a player with a certain level of skill. But in this case you are relating the tank's capability to the driver which will alter regardless the tank's true potential.

So while a tank can be easier to drive and perform well like the t95, tanks like the t54 can outperform the td if the driver knows how use its full potential, even if players finds it harder to drive.

But i think we can all agree that a t95 performs better in the hands of a less skilled player, so in that regard it might be considered the "best for not the best players". 

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22 minutes ago, nabucodonsor said:

Kolni is right. The definition of best, of absolute best means that a tank can outperform any other tank in any  situation when played to its full potential. If you imagine a game of 15vs15 super computers that can play even better than the best super unicums you would truly see which is the best tank. 

An entirely differnt story is how well a certain tank can perform with a player with a certain level of skill. But in this case you are relating the tank's capability to the driver which will alter regardless the tank's true potential.

So while a tank can be easier to drive and perform well like the t95, tanks like the t54 can outperform the td if the driver knows how use its full potential, even if players finds it harder to drive.

But i think we can all agree that a t95 performs better in the hands of a less skilled player, so in that regard it might be considered the "best for not the best players". 

No that doesn't mean best. What best means depends on the definition. You won't even get one tank that's best in wot becaues the top5 players on EU will still have slight differences in playstyle that will translate into them prefering different tanks. It's best tank not "highest potential tank".

 

Also your comment on the t95 is inaccurate. It's not that it performs better in the hands of a less skilled player. It's that it performs VERY good and best in the hands of anyone not a geniuine unicum. The boost to WR drops at 59/60 and it still gives you it until 63% wr. Your comment suggests t95 only works for 50%ers and below. It's best for everyone but the few best players.

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34 minutes ago, Tanager said:

I never expected the thread to be anything more than subjective.  It's a parlor game used to canvass the views of a group of players ranging from slightly above average (me, e.g.) up to genuine unica, and I'm totally okay with that - if you aggregate the views of enough reasonably good players who are willing to put some thought into their responses, I think you'll wind up with an acceptable consensus.  I'd further assert that said consensus can be used by players like myself as a sufficiently accurate barometer of tank quality that you can at least pick out the utter garbage and know what's just not worth even attempting to play, given a choice.  I'm good with that.  Every one of these elimination threads has seen a similar debate about, "what does good mean" - I'm personally totally okay with it being in the eye of the beholder.  Many of the better players have stated and well-known playstyles, or they're willing to qualify their answers with enough thoughtful rationale that you can tell, "well, would it be good for *me*?" within a not-extreme margin of error.  All IMHO, of course, but that applies to the entire thread, too.

(edit) I also enjoy threads like this.  It's good to stimulate some actual discussion, and when I was a forum newbie, threads like this were what grabbed me most, so if this pulls in a few new posters who wonder why they've bothered to show up, that's a pretty good bonus.

Of course.

Everything is supposed to be subjective. but with lots of different people voting, and the way the voting works, a lot of the purely subjective votes such as the T49 get cancelled out eventually.  the more subjective tanks that get removed, the more those players will start upvoting objectively good tanks.

The way it ends up, the first ~10 tanks that get voted out are subjective votes, and I wouldnt trust the but after that it gets more accurate as to what is good or not. the top ~10 tanks you can count to be pretty accurate as to how good they are. 

 

one thing I will say I disagree with Kolnis points, is that playing everything "perfectly" to bring out each tanks absolute best potential, isn't always possible. with some tanks that line would be very, very thin, so in some cases Id say that, unless you are literally a top 10 player on the server, tanks with a little bit more wiggle room and a bit more forgiving would generally be considered better IMO.

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Im doing 3 this time because I only have experience with 3 more tier 9s

T-10: 28+1=29 Very similar to a T-54 in what it does good, but trades some camo and mobility for alpha. 340 HEAT makes this tank, ridiculous penetration means you can never stop shooting giving it a ridiculous potential influence in games, even if the gun likes to be derpy.
T-54: 26
AMX M4 51: 24
T49: 24
WZ-111 1-4: 24
Conqueror: 23
Type 4 Heavy: 22
E50: 21
E75: 22
AMX 30: 21
T30: 20
T95: 21
M46 Patton: 21
B-C 25t AP: 21-3=18 Tank is a joy to play and has wicked smooth gun handling, and all the mobility of a batchat, however the mediocre penetration and inability to deal with super heavies frontally unlike the actual batchat limits its potential in a corridor meta.
Skoda T50: 21
Leopard PTA: 20
Object 704: 20
Object 263: 20
WT Auf Pz. IV: 20
Object 430: 20
ST-I: 20
Tortoise: 20
AMX 13 90: 20
Mauschen: 20
STRV 103-0: 20
50TP: 20
Standard B: 20
Centurion 7/1: 19
T-54 LW: 17-3=14 Overall its a fantastic light tank, because it has some survivability giving it flexibility that other lights dream of, but it still gets horrendously outperformed by meds, especially the T-54. There just currently isn't enough unique opportunities in each map to justify having a 250 alpha pew pew gun at tier 9 instead of 320 alpha 3k dpm russian bias cannon.
Object 257: 17
WZ-132A: 17
WZ-120: 17
Object 705: 17
Jagdtiger: 17
T54E1: 15
Conway: 14
Foch: 14
WZ-111G FT: 14
VK 4502 (B): 9
Type 61: 11.
Emil II: 8
AMX 50 120: 8
M103: 5

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1 hour ago, Assassin7 said:

Of course.

Everything is supposed to be subjective. but with lots of different people voting, and the way the voting works, a lot of the purely subjective votes such as the T49 get cancelled out eventually.  the more subjective tanks that get removed, the more those players will start upvoting objectively good tanks.

The way it ends up, the first ~10 tanks that get voted out are subjective votes, and I wouldnt trust the but after that it gets more accurate as to what is good or not. the top ~10 tanks you can count to be pretty accurate as to how good they are. 

 

one thing I will say I disagree with Kolnis points, is that playing everything "perfectly" to bring out each tanks absolute best potential, isn't always possible. with some tanks that line would be very, very thin, so in some cases Id say that, unless you are literally a top 10 player on the server, tanks with a little bit more wiggle room and a bit more forgiving would generally be considered better IMO.

This form of voting doesn't cancel out edge votes as easy as a prediction market. If you had people rate all tanks and if you had a way of somehow finding edge/extreme opinions and cancel them you would probably get higher accuracy like in a true prediction market. Elimination works well only because most people know a lot here but specific placing will not be as good as if you used a more accurate method. The 1 vs the other will probably make the final results more subjective even if the top tank will probably be consensus best. 

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T-10: 29
T-54: 26
AMX M4 51: 24
T49: 24
WZ-111 1-4: 24
Conqueror: 23
Type 4 Heavy: 22
E50: 21
E75: 22
AMX 30: 21
T30: 20
T95: 21
M46 Patton: 21+1=22 This tank is so under-appreciated nowadays. A trollish ~250 effective turret with wicked gun handling and classic American gun depression makes this tank amazing on a ridgeline. The near tier 10 levels of DPM and amazing viewrange is just the icing on the cake. The only big issue I see with the tank is the pen, but all that prevents is braindead yolopenning Type 5 fronts. It's just comfortable, and even if the low pen hurts in the current heavy-corridor meta, you can dominate any ridgeline and play effective vision/DPM games even without. 
B-C 25t AP: 18
Skoda T50: 21
Leopard PTA: 20
Object 704: 20
Object 263: 20
WT Auf Pz. IV: 20
Object 430: 20
ST-I: 20
Tortoise: 20
AMX 13 90: 20
Mauschen: 20
STRV 103-0: 20
50TP: 20
Standard B: 20
Centurion 7/1: 19
T-54 LW: 14
Object 257: 17
WZ-132A: 17
WZ-120: 17
Object 705: 17
Jagdtiger: 17
T54E1: 15-3=12 What if you took a M46 and gave it a 4 shot autoloader?

...

And also removed all its redeeming features? No mobility, armor that trolls one in a hundred shots, piss poor gun handling and it doesn't spew out damage the way it used to now that it can't pen shit, work around the low pen or even hit shots in the first place. 
Conway: 14
Foch: 14
WZ-111G FT: 14
VK 4502 (B): 9
Type 61: 11.
Emil II: 8
AMX 50 120: 8
M103: 5

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11 hours ago, Masterpupil2 said:

K 4502 (B): 14 + 1 = 15 / Man I'm disappointed in you people. Unless this tank was nerfed last time I played it, this tank is a real hidden gem. It's a monster at side-scraping, has bully alpha (490??), good HP, and it's a corridor demon.

Yes, it was nerfed :( LFP is now 150mm, not the 200mm upper and lower it used to be.

T-10: 29
T-54: 26
AMX M4 51: 24
T49: 24

WZ-111 1-4: 25 Still the best Heavium here. Until its voted out, it'll continue to get my vote as best
Conqueror: 23
Type 4 Heavy: 22
E50: 21
E75: 22
AMX 30: 21
T30: 20
T95: 21
M46 Patton: 22
B-C 25t AP: 18
Skoda T50: 21
Leopard PTA: 20
Object 704: 20
Object 263: 20
WT Auf Pz. IV: 20
Object 430: 20
ST-I: 20
Tortoise: 20
AMX 13 90: 20
Mauschen: 20
STRV 103-0: 20
50TP: 20
Standard B: 20
Centurion 7/1: 19
T-54 LW: 14
Object 257: 17
WZ-132A: 17
WZ-120: 17
Object 705: 17
Jagdtiger: 17
T54E1: 12
Conway: 14
Foch: 14
WZ-111G FT: 14
VK 4502 (B): 9
Type 61: 11.

Emil II: 5 - Die. Worst tank here
AMX 50 120: 8
M103: 5

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On phone plz fix. 

T49+1= 25 While the 152mm may be derpy at times the ability to dmg any tank and to eliminate paper thin tanks is very important and can be game changing. Also the platform is very good with good camo and view range allows to play the scouting role effectively. In my opinion it gets a great gun (for a LT) on a good platform.

t54ltw-3= 11. This tank has a crap gun, no armour and no russian cloaking device (camo is on par with the t49). It fails a being a LT due to the poor view range, size and unimpressive mobility and it fails as a pseudo-dmg dealer like the OG t-54 due to shit pen and accuracy. 

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5 hours ago, Tanager said:

Did the RU 251 get eliminated already, and I missed it?

Apparently, although I remember me being the only one refering to it. I don't disagree with it, though, it deserves to get thrown out after just looking at it once.

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T-10: 29
T-54: 26
AMX M4 51: 24
T49: 25
WZ-111 1-4: 25 
Conqueror: 23
Type 4 Heavy: 22
E50: 21
E75: 22
AMX 30: 21
T30: 20
T95: 21
M46 Patton: 22
B-C 25t AP: 18
Skoda T50: 21
Leopard PTA: 20
Object 704: 20
Object 263: 20
WT Auf Pz. IV: 20
Object 430: 20
ST-I: 20
Tortoise: 20
AMX 13 90: 20
Mauschen: 20
STRV 103-0: 20
50TP: 20
Standard B: 20
Centurion 7/1: 19
T-54 LW: 11-3: 8. the Lightweight used to be the best tier 8 light tank, clearly outclassing the T-44 and its derivatives in the medium role (in competitive formats). Obviously the tanks are no longer comparable, but I find it telling that the T-44-100 is pretty much a better tank nowadays as a tier 8 medium. Like almost every other Tier 9 light tank, the LW just suffers from an aggravating lack of armour and firepower, except that it's gun is the worst among its pitiable peers, its armour too thin to matter, and is too big a tank to play as a proper dedicated scout. An enjoyable but bad tank in a class of enjoyable but bad tanks.
Object 257: 17
WZ-132A: 17
WZ-120: 17
Object 705: 17
Jagdtiger: 17
T54E1: 12 
Conway: 14
Foch: 14
WZ-111G FT: 14+1=15: this tank (if you can call it that) is rarely played because it's a supremely boring tank on a superlatively boring line, but when it's played it tends to be driven by tryhard blues who spam full 395 pen HEAT and run food and shit. In an ideal world your team won't be stupid enough to peek these shits and these Chinese bento boxes will get whittled down by flanking fire and judicious use of gold. But this is not an ideal world, and trying to fight these things head on (not avoidable 50% of the time given maps) is like fighting an extra tier 10 TD. Casemate TDs have always been annoyingly inflexible in any kind of meta, but this, alongside the T95 are probably the best among them.
VK 4502 (B): 9
Type 61: 11.
AMX 50 120: 8
Emil II: 5 

M103: 5

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On 9/24/2018 at 10:00 AM, MagicalFlyingFox said:

No one here has really played the T95 ever since they buffed it. 

I've played the hell out of it since they buffed it.  And yeah, I even enjoy it - when I play it, I accept that my role is to be a combination meatshield-cum-claymore.  Boring?  I could see some saying that, although I don't find it boring.  I like winning, losing is boring, and I can pull a consistent 58% in the doom turtle, which is well above my average.  So yeah, I like it.  I play all of my tier 9 TDs, honestly.

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Damn, I’m actually sad the VK B had to get nerfed. Tank truly was good after the initial buffs, but I never thought of it as over powered or even close to deserving of a nerf. 

Now the braindead Jap heavies? Yes. That’s something that needs a nerf.

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So the RU 251 disappeared between this post: 

 and this one: 

It had 17 points at the time - I'm fine with not adding it back, b/c we all know it isn't going to survive, just wanted to point out that we need to be kinda careful in copy/pasting.

 

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2 hours ago, Masterpupil2 said:

Damn, I’m actually sad the VK B had to get nerfed. Tank truly was good after the initial buffs, but I never thought of it as over powered or even close to deserving of a nerf. 

Now the braindead Jap heavies? Yes. That’s something that needs a nerf.

"Just play 7201" - Fulcrous (probably)

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1 hour ago, Fulcrous said:

"Just play 7201" - Fulcrous (probably)

Forever kicking myself that I didn't play the 5 games in Kempain 2 to get one.

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1 hour ago, Fulcrous said:

"Just play 7201" - Fulcrous (probably)

Ive been playing the 60TP quite a bit, Id bet it'd sync really well w/ the VK72. I platooned it with a Super Conq already, and it just smashed as a combo deal

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  • T-10: 29
  • T-54: 26
  • AMX M4 51: 24
  • T49: 25
  • WZ-111 1-4: 25 
  • Conqueror: 23
  • Type 4 Heavy: 22
  • E50: 21
  • E75: 22
  • AMX 30: 21
  • T30: 20
  • T95: 21
  • M46 Patton: 22
  • B-C 25t AP: 18
  • Skoda T50: 21
  • Leopard PTA: 20
  • Object 704: 20
  • Object 263: 20
  • WT Auf Pz. IV: 20
  • Object 430: 20
  • ST-I: 20
  • Tortoise: 20
  • AMX 13 90: 20
  • Mauschen: 20
  • STRV 103-0: 20
  • 50TP: 20
  • Standard B: 20
  • Centurion 7/1: 19
  • T-54 LW: 8. 
  • Object 257: 17
  • WZ-132A: 17
  • WZ-120: 17
  • Object 705: 17
  • Jagdtiger: 17
  • T54E1: 12 
  • Conway: 14
  • Foch: 14
  • WZ-111G FT: 15
  • VK 4502 (B): 9
  • Type 61: 11.
  • AMX 50 120: 8
  • Emil II: 5 
  • M103: 5
  • RU 251: 17

 

Updated list, added RU back. I feel its fair to keep it, even though its not going to win.

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T-10: 30 - Simply the best all round tier nine for almost all skill levels. Superior Rushan Bias AND comfort.
T-54: 26
AMX M4 51: 24
T49: 25
WZ-111 1-4: 25
Conqueror: 23
Type 4 Heavy: 22
E50: 21
E75: 22
AMX 30: 21
T30: 20
T95: 21
M46 Patton: 22
B-C 25t AP: 18
Skoda T50: 21
Leopard PTA: 20
Object 704: 20
Object 263: 20
WT Auf Pz. IV: 20
Object 430: 20
ST-I: 20
Tortoise: 20
AMX 13 90: 20
Mauschen: 20
STRV 103-0: 20
50TP: 20
Standard B: 20
Centurion 7/1: 19
T-54 LW: 8.
Object 257: 17
WZ-132A: 17
WZ-120: 17
Object 705: 17
Jagdtiger: 17
T54E1 : 12
Conway: 14
Foch: 14
WZ-111G FT: 15
VK 4502 (B): 9
Type 61: 11.
AMX 50 120: 8
Emil II: 5
M103: 5
RU 251: 14 - I'm not sure if this is worse than the Lightweight, but it's certainly not measurably better. The better gun and speed are offset by the getting HE penned by the far more common and much better T49s running around who right click left click snapshot you into oblivion because RNG and tier 1 armour

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