FlorbFnarb

China - meds or lights?

48 posts in this topic

I'm at a decision point.  I have enough XP in my Type T-34 to research either the 59-16 or the Type 58.  I have a T-34-3 and quite a while ago (a year ago or so) I intended to go up the Chinese med line.

Then I look at the tech tree, and I'm now debating.  I could go heavies, meds, or lights.  People say the Chinese heavies are really good, but I already have tons of heavies in the American, Russian, and German lines, and I'm debating picking up the O-I and pushing up the Japanese heavies.  The Chinese heavies don't seem distinctive enough from their Russian counterparts to make that juice worth the squeeze, plus I don't have a Chinese heavy premium.

So that leaves the meds and lights; Russian TDs are satisfying my current taste for TDs.  I have a T-34-3, a Type 64, and I need to grind credits to get my Type 62 back.*

I'm enjoying my time with American lights, and I'm grinding the E-50 line and the T-54.  If I feel the need to play heavies I have a ton in the garage, but I'm trying to branch out.  So, here's the real question: are the Chinese meds or lights more worth my time?  I enjoy both MT and LT play, but I have a ton more time in MTs.  I reeeeeeeally enoy taking my Walker Bulldog out on a map like Sand River and spotting the shit out of the enemy while remaining quasi-invulnerable due to terrain abuse, then sharking enemies for fun once the enemy thins out and I can find gaps to get into.

But then WG has their hardon for heavy tanks, and evenings where I repeatedly draw Ensk, Himmels, and Abbey all in the same session...makes me wonder what the point is.

TL,DR: Opinions on the MT versus LT lines?

 

* Remember that anti-Wotlabs site that Vlad and others were posting at?  I logged in there once, and it linked to WG's verification page.  Posted a couple times, then took a couple weeks off from the game.  Came back to find out my password had been snatched somehow, they had posted at the official forums under my username, played my account, and sold my E 100 and Type 62; fortunately that's all they sold, according to WG.  WG said they couldn't do much for me; I could only buy back the E 100 and Type 62 with credits, and the fuckers had burned my entire credit account somehow.

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Dont touch china meds and lights. T9 and t10 are trash from lights. From meds the t9 is supper annoying. 2 years ago it was balanced thanks to big alpha and not everyone being great at hull down. 121 on the other hand is just a very shitty 430U

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2 minutes ago, hazzgar said:

Dont touch china meds and lights. T9 and t10 are trash from lights. From meds the t9 is supper annoying. 2 years ago it was balanced thanks to big alpha and not everyone being great at hull down. 121 on the other hand is just a very shitty 430U

113 as well

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7 minutes ago, hazzgar said:

Dont touch china meds and lights. T9 and t10 are trash from lights. From meds the t9 is supper annoying. 2 years ago it was balanced thanks to big alpha and not everyone being great at hull down. 121 on the other hand is just a very shitty 430U

 

5 minutes ago, lavawing said:

113 as well

Ok, well how about the Tier 6-8 stuff?  Worth my time?  Fun to play?

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42 minutes ago, FlorbFnarb said:

 

Ok, well how about the Tier 6-8 stuff?  Worth my time?  Fun to play?

Short answer no.

Long answer nope. Tier 7 med is a highlight but needs a good crew with BIA and camo to properly leverage its strengths. The tier 8 is a decent tier 7. The tier 9 is really badly powercreeped and the 121 is a passable tier 9 I guess.

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15 minutes ago, lavawing said:

Short answer no.

Long answer nope. Tier 7 med is a highlight but needs a good crew with BIA and camo to properly leverage its strengths. The tier 8 is a decent tier 7. The tier 9 is really badly powercreeped and the 121 is a passable tier 9 I guess.

OK, so the meds are underpowered.  What's your take on the lights?

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5 minutes ago, FlorbFnarb said:

OK, so the meds are underpowered.  What's your take on the lights?

Haven't played them. Lights are generally underpowered, their only saving grace being the fun factor. The Chinese light line is not particularly fast or well armed, nor stealthy, nor does it have derp guns. You can just about draw your conclusions from this.

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Ummm...the Chinese scout line has the best guns at tier for tiers 7 and 8.  They are not underarmed.  The mobility is quite good as well.  Not sure what you're thinking of @lavawing, but armament and mobility are not shortcomings of the line up through tier 8.  Beyond that the guns turn into potato launchers.

I loved both the 131 and the 132.  The 59-16 used to be somewhat unique and really fun to play with spaceship camo and the autoloader, but without that, it's just a grind, nothing particularly good or unique about it.

The 131 and 132 both have very powerful guns relative to tier - roughly equivalent to a standard medium gun at the same tier.  The 131's gun is quite accurate, the 132's sufficiently so, but it's not a laser.

The real shortcoming of the chinese tech tree lights is view range.  The type 62 has 390, but the 131 has...370???  They got hit hard during TheGreatScoutNerfing, I believe.  Hell, even the type 64 has 390 meters of base VR.  (I will say that the prem lights are absofreakinglutely worth picking up.)  If you can grind a great crew and are willing to run food, the Chinese lights are IMHO very solid tanks, and you can still play vision games at tier 7 (which has great MM as well).

 

Since you brought it up, though, why not grind the Chinese heavies?  The IS-2 can be a bit painful, and I absolutely loathed the 110, but the JuanQuattro is a good tank (although I suck in it), and the JuanCinco is considered one of the best in tier (I have yet to play it, personally).  The 1-5 even picks up a full 7 degrees of gun depression.

If you're going to sit around tiers 7 and 8, play the scouts IMHO.  If you're looking to play tier 9 (or 10), grind the heavies and deal with the lower tiers as best you can on the way there.

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4 hours ago, FlorbFnarb said:

 

Ok, well how about the Tier 6-8 stuff?  Worth my time?  Fun to play?

t34-1 is decent but it used to be great when no one else but it and t20 had high alpha. Now it's ok. t34-2 is literally trash. It's worse than pref mm tanks. 

For lights wz131 is ok but there are better lights in tier, wz132 is meh.

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24 minutes ago, hazzgar said:

t34-1 is decent but it used to be great when no one else but it and t20 had high alpha. Now it's ok. t34-2 is literally trash. It's worse than pref mm tanks. 

For lights wz131 is ok but there are better lights in tier, wz132 is meh.

The only drawback to the wz131 is that it's in the same tier as the 13 75 and t71 DA, both of which are complete facewreckers.  The wz 132 is as good as or better than any other tech tree tier 8 scout IMHO, but for the gimped VR.

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6 minutes ago, Tanager said:

The only drawback to the wz131 is that it's in the same tier as the 13 75 and t71 DA, both of which are complete facewreckers.  The wz 132 is as good as or better than any other tech tree tier 8 scout IMHO, but for the gimped VR.

That's a pretty big drawback. Also 13 57 also type62.

 

As for t8 scouts - lttb is better, bc12t is better (people complain because low dpm but high camo makes up for it), also m41 90 and elc even are better.

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One advantage of the lights is that the WZ-132 leads to both trees, so it is possible to skip the next three mediums in line. (You just need to come up with another crew for the tier 9 grinds.)

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1 minute ago, hazzgar said:

That's a pretty big drawback. Also 13 57 also type62.

 

As for t8 scouts - lttb is better, bc12t is better (people complain because low dpm but high camo makes up for it), also m41 90 and elc even are better.

I guess it's a matter of taste.  The 132 has the best gun in tier, rivalled only by the blackdog (and I only mentioned tech tree scouts, I'll concede that the 13 57 and type 62 just make life difficult for 131, although the 131 is still solid).  The 12t is...meh, IMHO.  It has to rely on pure scouting until late game, it has real trouble dealing damage in the current meta other than during mop-up.  LTTB is a toss-up - you have great mobility, worse camo, troll armor, but worse firepower.  Blackdog has horrible camo but a really nice gun, which helps out.  Probably the best counter-scout in tier.  ELC even relies entirely too much on teammates, since it also struggles to inflict any damage on its own.

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16 minutes ago, Tanager said:

I guess it's a matter of taste.  The 132 has the best gun in tier, rivalled only by the blackdog (and I only mentioned tech tree scouts, I'll concede that the 13 57 and type 62 just make life difficult for 131, although the 131 is still solid).  The 12t is...meh, IMHO.  It has to rely on pure scouting until late game, it has real trouble dealing damage in the current meta other than during mop-up.  LTTB is a toss-up - you have great mobility, worse camo, troll armor, but worse firepower.  Blackdog has horrible camo but a really nice gun, which helps out.  Probably the best counter-scout in tier.  ELC even relies entirely too much on teammates, since it also struggles to inflict any damage on its own.

You should not judge tanks by the gun alone. 

As for bc12t - it doesn't have to rely on pure scouting. The burst isn't big but the gun is moderately reliable and it can deal more damage early on thanks to it than wz132

LTTB is better at sniping since it has good shell speed and 0.35 dispersion.

 

Also wz132 has 2nd worst hp/t next to black dog  and worst top speed so it moves like a fast med not like a true light. With it being slower than all, worse camo than bc12 it's just worse than others at scouting. Yeah it's decent at shooting stuff but if you want to shoot stuff you don't get a light tank since they are all bad at pew pew pew anyway.

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7 minutes ago, hazzgar said:

You should not judge tanks by the gun alone. 

As for bc12t - it doesn't have to rely on pure scouting. The burst isn't big but the gun is moderately reliable and it can deal more damage early on thanks to it than wz132

LTTB is better at sniping since it has good shell speed and 0.35 dispersion.

 

Also wz132 has 2nd worst hp/t next to black dog  and worst top speed so it moves like a fast med not like a true light. With it being slower than all, worse camo than bc12 it's just worse than others at scouting. Yeah it's decent at shooting stuff but if you want to shoot stuff you don't get a light tank since they are all bad at pew pew pew anyway.

BC 12t - early damage?  I'm not looking for early damage in a tier 8 autoloader that sees tier 10s, especially not one with 170 base pen.  132 has 189 base pen - it's basically the same gun as the T-44, for all intents and purposes, albeit with lower APCR pen, but I rarely have to break out the premium in it, since I'm almost never shooting at the front of anything.  With my crew + food, I get .34 or .35 dispersion, which is just fine.

Compare the terrain resistance - the chinese lights are basically hovercraft, so they don't suffer as much from that lower power-to-weight (and it's not *that* much lower, they're still plenty mobile, not sluggish wannabe-meds like the blackdog).

If you want to be a scout at tier 8, my personal choice is the t92 (which you for some reason failed to mention :) ), b/c that's got 400m base VR, spaceship camo, fantastic power-to-weight AND low terrain resistance, and...1215 mps APCR for its stock ammo.  If you want to deal damage, I'd take the 132 any day over any other tier 8 save the blackdog, and while the blackdog is better at destroying lower tiers and other scouts, it has  horrible shell velocity and is sluggish as hell, and the 132 deals with being bottom tier overall better, IMHO.

Back to the OP - IMHO, the tier 7 and tier 8 scouts are a lot of fun to play.  IF you like scouts.  But noone is ever going to claim that any tier 9/10 scout beyond the T49 or maybe the 13 90 is really worth keeping, so if you're going to grind the entire line, just get past the mid tiers and grind Chinese heavies, which are pretty universally considered strong tanks at the upper tiers (9 and 10).

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Arguing about which light tank is the best is literally the same as arguing over whether Syphilis is better than Herpes.

You may be technically correct but who wants either?

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10 hours ago, Tanager said:

BC 12t - early damage?  I'm not looking for early damage in a tier 8 autoloader that sees tier 10s, especially not one with 170 base pen.  132 has 189 base pen - it's basically the same gun as the T-44, for all intents and purposes, albeit with lower APCR pen, but I rarely have to break out the premium in it, since I'm almost never shooting at the front of anything.  With my crew + food, I get .34 or .35 dispersion, which is just fine.

Compare the terrain resistance - the chinese lights are basically hovercraft, so they don't suffer as much from that lower power-to-weight (and it's not *that* much lower, they're still plenty mobile, not sluggish wannabe-meds like the blackdog).

If you want to be a scout at tier 8, my personal choice is the t92 (which you for some reason failed to mention :) ), b/c that's got 400m base VR, spaceship camo, fantastic power-to-weight AND low terrain resistance, and...1215 mps APCR for its stock ammo.  If you want to deal damage, I'd take the 132 any day over any other tier 8 save the blackdog, and while the blackdog is better at destroying lower tiers and other scouts, it has  horrible shell velocity and is sluggish as hell, and the 132 deals with being bottom tier overall better, IMHO.

Back to the OP - IMHO, the tier 7 and tier 8 scouts are a lot of fun to play.  IF you like scouts.  But noone is ever going to claim that any tier 9/10 scout beyond the T49 or maybe the 13 90 is really worth keeping, so if you're going to grind the entire line, just get past the mid tiers and grind Chinese heavies, which are pretty universally considered strong tanks at the upper tiers (9 and 10).

BC12T has a clip. This means it can put MANY shots into heavies going into initial positions. This means BC12T if lucky can put 680dmg in 6s. In the same time wz132 will do 250. 

Also again I have not said wz132 is bad. It's just ok. The gun would be good but 0.38 base acc is bad for sniping given the low pen. Also yeah chinease lights have good terrain resistances but they are still slower than bc12 (which is faster to turn by miles) and lttb . Overal BC12 has a worse gun but the camo + autoloader mean a lot. If I wanted a mobile Gun I prefer the LTTB since it's super fast and is more accurate at ranges.  Also I'd never chose a light tank for dealing damage. T92 is fun but it that alpha kills it. You could say elc even has a crap gun but 660 clip means you can kill meds and lights late game. Also even is just a better scout not only because the camo is even better and you are basically spotted at 200m but also because of the size you can often afford to get spoted. I love my elc even. If you want to learn vision it's the tank to get. There is a reason I have 1200 battles in mine. 

 

As for t9 scouts I'm one of the few people who likes the t54lwt. Pulled 63% wr in it vs 61 in lttb (though that's probably because of the flipping). 

9 hours ago, StormCrowReaperManyHats said:

Arguing about which light tank is the best is literally the same as arguing over whether Syphilis is better than Herpes.

You may be technically correct but who wants either?

Lights are bad but they are fun. Also a few light tanks are actually good - amx 13 57 is broken as balls now. Also type64 is very strong too.

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2 hours ago, hazzgar said:

Lights are bad but they are fun. Also a few light tanks are actually good - amx 13 57 is broken as balls now. Also type64 is very strong too.

"Lights are bad" is IMHO a tier 8+ statement.  The vision game is very much still a thing at tiers 6 and 7.  The tier 7 scouts are, for my $$$, one of the stronger classes of tanks tier-for-tier.  That's both tech tree and premium.  Other than the T71 CMCD (meh) and that slow German egg of a tank, there is not a bad tier 7 scout.  Tier 7 having pretty good MM right now doesn't hurt, either.

My best stats of *any* tank are in the T21, and my second and third best are the type 62 and 13 75.

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It sounds like since I already have a Stuart, a Type 64, and a Type 62, I already have all the Chinese lights worth having.  :serb:

15 hours ago, Tanager said:

I guess it's a matter of taste.  The 132 has the best gun in tier, rivalled only by the blackdog (and I only mentioned tech tree scouts, I'll concede that the 13 57 and type 62 just make life difficult for 131, although the 131 is still solid).  The 12t is...meh, IMHO.  It has to rely on pure scouting until late game, it has real trouble dealing damage in the current meta other than during mop-up.  LTTB is a toss-up - you have great mobility, worse camo, troll armor, but worse firepower.  Blackdog has horrible camo but a really nice gun, which helps out.  Probably the best counter-scout in tier.  ELC even relies entirely too much on teammates, since it also struggles to inflict any damage on its own.

What's a Blackdog?

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15 minutes ago, FlorbFnarb said:

It sounds like since I already have a Stuart, a Type 64, and a Type 62, I already have all the Chinese lights worth having.  :serb:

What's a Blackdog?

M41 90. It's a tier 8 prem light that's generally favoured for having high DPM and being a better tier 8 med than most tier 8 meds. That, and 102 pen HE rounds.

15 hours ago, Tanager said:

I guess it's a matter of taste.  The 132 has the best gun in tier, rivalled only by the blackdog (and I only mentioned tech tree scouts, I'll concede that the 13 57 and type 62 just make life difficult for 131, although the 131 is still solid).  The 12t is...meh, IMHO.  It has to rely on pure scouting until late game, it has real trouble dealing damage in the current meta other than during mop-up.  LTTB is a toss-up - you have great mobility, worse camo, troll armor, but worse firepower.  Blackdog has horrible camo but a really nice gun, which helps out.  Probably the best counter-scout in tier.  ELC even relies entirely too much on teammates, since it also struggles to inflict any damage on its own.

T-44-100: exists./

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20 hours ago, lavawing said:

113 as well

113 is good man maybe a bit less than the 430U but not that much worse. 

@FlorbFnarb grind until the WZ-132. Maybe keep the 59 16 as it is the best LT in the tier.

Remember that from the WZ-132 you can get the 120 and 121 aswell but my suggestion is that you dont go any further as those tanks are either obsolete or worthless. 

The 132 is very good altough probably the HWK is the best LT in the tier. Still it has some good perks like a good turret, a good HE pen and decent pen. If you feel like it the second gun on it has 246 or something of apcr at the cost of less handling and raw dpm.

The dpm of the final gun is good, mobility is great (also very agile which is very important) and the alpha and dpm are good, allowing you to play as a supporting medium aswell. It has good dmg potential even in SH

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51 minutes ago, nabucodonsor said:

113 is good man maybe a bit less than the 430U but not that much worse. 

Agreed, but you have to take into account that on top of being better as a base tank, the 430U is matched as a medium. IMO the 113 is still a good tank among the better half of tier 10 heavies, but there's little point recommending a tank that is, despite being good, straight up inferior to another.

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