rocketbrainsurgeon

WN8: the good, the bad, and the padding

242 posts in this topic

I think the confusion here might stem from conflating skill floor/ceiling with performance floor/ceiling. 

The latter term is more appropriate. 

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You mixed these up. Heart surgeon does not have a low floor, it takes a lot of skill just to qualify. A "Low Floor" job is one anybody can do.

He's saying the difference between a hobo and heart surgeon performing the operation is the difference. Personally it's still a wrong comparison since a heart surgeon would be high floor high ceiling because of the entry level to get into the profession. A better analogy would be bookkeepers. Easy to get into and if you excel at it you can reach very lofty positions as high as CFO.

For me personally, I think of it like a box. To get into the box you have to get to the floor and the skill potential is limited by the ceiling. Basically think of the floor as the base requirements to get the box and the ceiling is how high you get in the box.

Basically in regards to wn8, it's like this:

The skill floor is the expected wn8. It's the base to achieve to be competent in that tank. The ceiling is how high you can regularly get above that wn8 value. It's not as indicative of skill level required to play all of the tanks so that's why there is a lot of bitching about it.

For example according to wn8:

T69 = 8 shots per match to be effective in it. High floor since that's effectively 1 minute of firing + reloading to match that per game. With low alpha and low pen, it's difficult to get that per game unless you really know the tank or play style well. Assuming unicum stats = expected value * 1.5, the tank also has a low ceiling because you effectively need 3 full rounds worth of damage a game to hit good stats with it.

T54e1: Low skill floor, high skill ceiling. Using the logic I used above, the requirements to be competent in the tank is a total of ~5 shots irrc, aka 1 round and 1 shot after. To achieve unicum stats you need ~2 rounds of shots to achieve. This means according to wn8 you need to do little to be competent in the tank and the ability of the tank to influence the game is huge based on how high wn8 can get with little extra effort needed.

To put it in comparison to the t69:

To be a unicum in the t69, you need to put 3 rounds of damage a game into enemies.

For the same effort in the t54e1, you are a super unicum because of difference in expected values. From what I understand this means the t54e1 can influence games better than the t69 because the wn8 is a measurement of skill aka ability to influence battles.

I hope this makes sense.

Also, Ech, can you please respond to my question about your post in trading hp effectively in the of core mechanics section?

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The low floor implies that the worst you can do is very bad. A high floor implies it is hard to fuck up. A janitor has a high floor, for instance (no offense to the janitors on the forum).

Do you have a source for this?  Here are some links that assert the opposite, that a low floor requires little skill to be OK:

 

http://harook.blogspot.com/2013/05/skill-floor-vs-skill-cap.html

 

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=3637916

 

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/3082251562

 

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3134526

 

 

And then there is this guy, who asserts there is no such thing as a "high floor" or "low floor"

 

http://zandagamedesign.blogspot.com/2010/02/skill-ceilings-and-floors.html

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In general we are using a different definition of skill floor and skill ceiling which we made up ourselves.

 

I will deconstruct it:

 

At the:

 

Skill Floor: A Red/Orange player is driving the tank

 

Skill Ceiling: A Purple player is driving the tank

 

High = high contribution to the match relative to what you expect

 

Low = low contribution to the match relative to what you expect

 

Therefore:

 

High/Low Skill Floor: A red/orange player will do better/worse then you expect given his/her account-wide performance

 

High/Low Skill Ceiling: A purple player will do better/worse then you expect given his/her account wide performance

 

The Wotnews win rate vs account win rate curves demonstrate this. Tanks like the Maus overperform for potatoes, but underperform for elite players. This is high floor, low ceiling The Hellcat is mid floor, high ceiling (the better you get the more it overperforms, but even bads do decent). Tanks which are low floor, low ceiling underperform for everyone, but are closest to balanced in average hands.

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Do you have a source for this?  Here are some links that assert the opposite, that a low floor requires little skill to be OK:

 

http://harook.blogspot.com/2013/05/skill-floor-vs-skill-cap.html

 

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=3637916

 

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/3082251562

 

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3134526

 

 

And then there is this guy, who asserts there is no such thing as a "high floor" or "low floor"

 

http://zandagamedesign.blogspot.com/2010/02/skill-ceilings-and-floors.html

I have no source, thats just my understanding of the terms as used in relation to World of Tanks. Max did a great job of breaking it down.

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Think of it in terms of actual floors and ceilings, with the ground being zero contribution and the sky being godlike contribution.  If you have a high floor then you are farther away from the ground by default

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Do you have a source for this?  Here are some links that assert the opposite, that a low floor requires little skill to be OK:

 

http://harook.blogspot.com/2013/05/skill-floor-vs-skill-cap.html

 

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=3637916

 

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/3082251562

 

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3134526

 

 

And then there is this guy, who asserts there is no such thing as a "high floor" or "low floor"

 

http://zandagamedesign.blogspot.com/2010/02/skill-ceilings-and-floors.html

 

 

There are a few different definitions of "skill floor."  As MaxL said, we largely defined our own for this game.  Many other games (related to the links you posted, I assume) use "skill floor" to define what I would call "barrier to entry."  That is, you need a certain level of skill to be effective.  

 

Perhaps, in WoT/WoTLabs lingo, we should speak of the "skill door" in addition to the ceiling/floor.  The ceiling represents the heights one can achieve with skillful play.  The floor represents how far one can fall through poor play.  The skill door would represent the expected values in WN8.  

 

Referencing the surgeon example above, the floor would be low, since an unskilled person performing surgery would kill the hell out of anyone he worked on.  The door would be pretty high, since we expect the average surgeon to be educated and competent.  The ceiling would be high, as skilled surgeons can repair more extensive damage, save more lives, and minimize the risk of post-op infections/complications.  

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Can I make some requests?

 

DeathTouch, Chairinabasket, Mazz. 

 

Your request has been heard and answered.

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Your request has been heard and answered.

Holy hell...

Are you done with your residency yet?

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Your request has been heard and answered.

My my, I'll be damned.

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This is like that time we found out Chair wasn't dead and.. 

nvmd he's still dead. 

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Holy hell...

Are you done with your residency yet?

Done? Nope haha I'm only 26. Going into psychiatry. Super excited.

 

How have you all been?

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How have you all been?

 

Welcome, guy who everyone else notable seems to know, yet about whom I know absolutely nothing! :D

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Done? Nope haha I'm only 26. Going into psychiatry. Super excited.

How have you all been?

Hem, my bad. I thought it had been longer since I last asked. Good luck with it, though! Any consideration to returning to tanks?

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On 4/25/2014 at 4:23 AM, xWulffx said:

Any system for rating players is going to exploitable in some shape or fashion.  This includes WR to an extent by running 'stacked' platoons and companies.

Solo winrate? only way to pad it.. timing of games where you could make more dent (e.g. less chance to have platoon of unicums on other side) 

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Hi RBS, I must say it is a brilliant article and I thoroughly enjoyed it. I must stand up for two lower tier tanks tho' - the A-20 and the PZ38T, both of which have been very productive for me, but for different reasons. The speed and reload times of the A-20 at that tier level and the sheer power of the PZer's gun, combined with it's armour.

A question tho'. Having never ever used auto aim, does it reduce blooming time? You referenced this in yr article...... 

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