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WaterWar

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  1. Upvote
    WaterWar reacted to Wanderjar for a blog entry, Crew training/retraining. "moar numbers" edition   
    Current Aug/22/20
    still valid and unchanged for Equip 2.0

    First off, props and a big thank you to my brother in arms, ShakeNBake, for doing the number engineering on this and making me look like I know what I'm talking about. And another thank you to @8_Hussars (again) for proof reading this and double checking my work in case I go full retard.

    So, this post is going to talk about Crew Experience and how to manage it to your benefit. What this post is NOT going to talk about is skill builds/selection, the equipment you can put on your tanks, and the %'s you see next to their names in the garage.


    ***************"Major Qualification Training and Retraining**********************

    The Primary Qualification (i.e. Commander, Driver) works separately from the rest of the skills. Changing the tank assignment has no* effect on crew skills. All numbers, except where noted, represent the amount of Crew XP that is lost when retraining for Credits (not the Free) rather than Gold. Retraining for Gold is always 0 XP lost.
    One of the few occasionally I'll actually cite the wiki:
    http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Crew#Training_and_Retraining_in_the_Major_Qualification
      Or:
    -The Initial Grind, 75% -> 100% Primary = 72543 (73K) Crew XP
    -Cross Class Retrain, 80% -> 100% = 63856 (64K) Crew XP
    -Same Class Retrain, 90% -> 100% = 39152 (39K) Crew XP
    Note: Same Class Retraining for free rather than for Credits (80% rather than 90%) loses you an extra 25K Crew XP. 20K credits or 25k XP.

    Retraining for Silver is entirely doable (especially within classes). The losses are extremely small AND(!!!) you can cheat the system a few ways as well.
    Unlock the new tank, and retrain the crew to that new tank but keep them in the old tank to grind the stock off the crew. (not the best way but it works) Girl crew! / Keep the crew in that tank The Kustom Krew method: Requires a premium tank of that nation and a decent crew from somewhere else. Put the good crew into the Premium, then send (to start with) the Cdr to the barracks and put a new 75% cdr in the premium. With ACT running, the Cdr gets double exp for a long as you keep him in there so you can knock out 1 or 2 skills fairly quickly. Once at the desired level, remove the premium Cdr, put the old one back in and work down the major qual list (gunner then driver then RO then loader) as needed for the new tank. Put original crew back together, and you have a 1 or 2 skill crew trained on the premium ready to be retrained to your new tank of whatever class. Profit Put the crew into a premium tank of that nation, (same class is best but any will do. just takes longer) retrain the crew to the new tank for silver, and then grind the crew to 100% while in the Premium tank. EX:
    If you have a US TD crew (say a 25/2) but don't own a US premium TD (and I don't blame you. I hate the scorp.) but you have a US premium Heavy, say a T34, you can retrain the crew to the new US TD (28 proto) and then grind the primary exp in the T34. You lose out on some of the accelerated benefits for being in the same class/type but not all of it and your crew exp continues to build at half rate in the premium, plus you get to pull in a few creds as well!
    http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Crew#Bonuses_and_Penalties and scroll down a bit:
    The thing to remember is that you have to have the new tank unlocked to retrain the crew to it, but you do not need to buy it (unless you really want to)



    ***************************Skill/Perk Training and Retraining******************************
    Skills count from a different pool of XP than Primary Qualifications. This pool can get huge at 3x+ crew levels. On your third skill, getting from 87% to 88% takes almost 22k XP*. Resetting skills for Credits loses a flat 10% off of the total XP (not just that skill, in total) in the crew exp pool. At (3)87%, the total skill exp pool is 1088K XP. A skill reset for credits of your 3 skill crew loses 109K XP. (218 games worth of exp @ 500exp/battle)

    Reference points for silver retrain:
    -21K crew XP lost from 100% on first skill (42 battles. meh. )
    -23K crew XP lost from 36% on second skill (first skill remains at 100%)
    -39K crew XP lost from 82% on second skill (equivalent to same class retrain)
    -63K crew XP lost from 100% on second skill (126 games worth of exp. poof.)
    -64K crew XP lost from 17% on third skill (equivalent to cross class retrain) (128 battles worth btw.)
    -70K crew XP lost from 49% on third skill (second skill remains at 100%) (or 140 battles )
    -73K crew XP lost from 55% on third skill (equivalent to initial primary grind from 75%)
    -147K crew XP lost from 100% on third skill  (294 games worth!)
    -164K crew XP lost from 52% on fourth skill (third skill remains at 100%)
    -315K crew XP lost from 100% on fourth skill ( 630 games that never happened!! Y U DO DIS!?!?)

    Remember, you lose a crapton of exp per silver retrain. How much is 21k exp? about 42 battles worth. (averaging 500 exp/battle) or an average of 5 hours of playing that tank only. (7 mins a game averaged)
    If you notice, that's the LOW number for silver skill retrains. 42 battles is barely tolerable to get back to where you were. After that, the losses are simply staggering. Into the hundreds or maybe thousand(s) of battles.

    How much XP is worth 200 gold is a question everyone will have to answer on their own. Personally, I do the first skill resets (I actually train 2 skills, then reset  to what's needed. Except the commander for 6th asap.) and same class retrains for credits. Everything else is gold.

    ****************************Accelerated Crew Training (ACT)*******************************

    Either on a Premium Tank, or a normal tank that you have completely researched (Elited!!!), There is a small check box above the crew members that will allow you to double the exp that 1 crewman gets. It automatically goes to the person with the LOWEST TOTAL EXP, not the lowest Major Qualification or even crew skill. This lucky person gets double the amount of Crew exp than he normally would INCLUDING (and this is cool) any modifiers like personal reserves. ACT does this by taking the exp that the 'tank' gets (its how you unlock modules and the next tank etc) and giving that exp to 1 crewman.

    How much crew exp does he normally get?
    The amount of Exp it shows you on either the 'detailed results' breakdown, or the "personal achievements" on the after battle screen(s). 

    However, Checking the ACT box will prevent you from stockpiling exp on that tank to convert later to free exp with gold (if you like to do that, me not so much.)

    Which Brings us to...

    *****************************Bonus Math and Personal Reserves*********************************
                                                             (Now with ACT!)
    **Warning! Math ahead!**

    If you ever played D&D then this makes total sense to you. If you didn't, then welcome to Weird Math 101.

    All the Bonuses are Additive, not Multiplicative. <--------- Remember this.
    So you would think that with your 2x daily multiplier and a 200% (2x) experience personal reserve and a 200% (2x) crew exp personal reserve running that you would get (2x2x2)= 8x Experience from your first win? 
    Lolnope.
    You get 4x.
    Here's why. The bonuses don't stack. Each one individually sees the base Exp (from the personal results or details screen remember?) and does their own action to it. So the daily double does its thing and the personal reserves do their thing. But they never see each other and the base exp only counts once and then they all get added together.
    The short version:
    TotalCrewmanXP = [earnedXP*(crewXPMod+(firstWinMod-1))]*[1+Accel]

    ok, lets expand it a little:
    base exp+ daily double + 2x personal reserve + 2x personal crew exp reserve + 10% clan reserve and accelerate crew training 
    (       1      +     (2-1)       +               (2-1)           +                  (2-1)                   +      (base exp x .1) ) = 4.1 x base crew exp

    and if you have ACT on you get 4.1 x 2 = 8.2 for that 1 crewman

    Or in long hand for the same example:
    base exp    +       daily double         +        2x personal reserve         +    2x personal crew exp reserve + 10% clan reserve and accelerate crew training 
    (Base exp + (2x base exp - base exp) + (2x base exp - base exp)   +  (2x base exp - base exp)          +   (base exp x .1) ) = 4.1 x base crew exp X 2 (for ACT)

    No? ok, the long way then.
    So:
    500 (base exp) (it counts here!)
    500 (base exp) x2 (daily double) = 500 exp. (because the base exp doesnt count here)
    500 (base exp) x2 (exp personal reserve ) = 500 exp.  (and it doesnt count here either!)
    500 (base exp) x2 (crew exp personal reserve) = 500 exp.    which gives you:
    500exp (base exp) + 500exp (from the daily double) + 500exp (from exp personal reserve) + 500 (crew exp personal reserve) = 2000exp because the base exp is only included once. or "4x" instead of the 8x you were expecting.

    Clear as mud? yeah I thought so.

    To make it easier, subtract 1 from the bonus and add it to the other bonuses to get what you are actually seeing.

    So if you run everything possible, you could have a 2x daily double, a 200% crew exp multiplier from personal reserves, a 200% exp multiplier from personal reserves + your Clan popped a clan reserve of +10% more exp. Got all that? Lets break it down:

    Base exp +  base exp +  base exp    +    base exp + (base exp x .1)    = 4.1 x base exp. If your base exp is 500 then your crewman gets 2050 exp 
          ^                   ^                 ^                      ^                   ^   
    base exp       2x daily     2x Per. Res.    2x Per. Res.   clan reserve

    Let's make it a BIT more obvious.
    WG is doing a 5x month and is running a 3x crew exp weekend and you pop a 2x personal reserve. you get 8x exp for that 1 fight.

    (     1         +     (5-1)       +         (3-1)        +        (2-1)          ) = 8x base crew exp
          ^                  ^                        ^                        ^                 
    Base Exp   +  4x base exp + 2x base exp + base exp = 8x or
      500         +       (4x 500)   +    (2x 500)     +      500     = 4000 exp per crewman or 8000 exp for 1 guy and 4000 for the rest with ACT running

    Neat! Hope that cleared some of the mud out. If it didn't please ask questions below!


    *(Both stars) After retraining the Primary Qualification, the XP that would have been between the 87% and 88% skill mark, some amount less than 22k, gets dropped to the primary qualification. Your third skill will remain at 87% and your primary skill will increase.
    ex:
    You had 18K (90%) of 22K(100%) and retrained in-class. Your primary qualification would now be 94%; 39K XP lost to the silver retrain, 18K gained in Primary Qualification from the skill reset. Please note that you have to retrain the skills to get the exp in a skill to funnel back into the Major Qualification crew exp pool, even if you have a bunch of exp in a skill slot that you haven't chosen yet.

    But, But if you are going to do that, then you might as well gold retrain him to major qual and be done with it instead of silver retraining his major qual then silver retraining his skills to get it to backfill and eating a significant exp penalty that's worse than the major qual exp loss.
    Or just throw them in a Premium tank?

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------For The Math Phobic------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    To say it avoiding math: Primary Qualification is a small pail with some water. Skills are a huge bucket of water. They aren't connected at all, but if you get a cup and scoop some out of the bucket into the pail, it will fill up. The cup is what kind of retrain you are going and how many holes/leaks it has. (lots of holes for Free, a few holes and cracks for Silver and no leaks at all for Gold)

    Graphs for the number shy:
    Exp required for each skill level:


    or, for the whole thing:


    TL;DR:
    Do yourself a favor and retrain for gold after skill 2. Wait for sales if you must. Play in weekend/weekday warrior tournys if you need some quick small gold.
    If gold retrain isn't an option at all for you, Please ask anyone (make a thread, google search the wotlabs forums, status update, post here, anything.) about the way to grind the skill order without retraining (it can suck, esp with perks, but it's doable and more exp effective than silver retrain in the long run)
     
  2. Upvote
    WaterWar reacted to Kuroialty for a blog entry, Brief overview of changes to tier 1 tanks in 9.14   
    A short excerpt from the supertest patch notes for 9.14:
    I'll look at the changes to tier 2 later, but for now, here's what's going on with the tier 1 tanks.
     
    MS-1
    The thing which stands out most about the MS-1 is its high penetration compared to other tanks of its tier.  In 9.14, it will lose the gun that gives it that recognition, falling back to 40mm standard penetration.  The alpha is also worse, which is probably more of a big deal in today's meta.  It otherwise has all the top modules it had before except for its engine, which is the 55hp module instead of 70hp one.  Compensation comes in the form of better tank traverse, up to 48 deg/s from 38.
    Ltraktor
    The gun lost here is strictly worse than another gun it keeps, so no real loss occurs.  Like the MS-1, it doesn't keep its 100hp top engine, instead keeping the 85hp one.  Also compensated with a massive tank traverse buff, up to 66 deg/s from 40.
    T1 Cunninham
    Loses the top gun and falls back on one with less penetration and accuracy.  Top engine is kept.  Tank traverse buffed from 38 deg/s to 42.
    Renault FT
    Perhaps one of the biggest winners from the recent map changes as it was able to effectively use the high-penetration, medium-accuracy Raccourci without having to worry so much about the distance cap.  Scratch that, the Raccourci is gone in 9.14.  Also keeps the stock engine, losing 61hp to end with 39hp, which is laughable.  Tank traverse buff is to 60 deg/s from 30.
    Vickers Mk. I
    Loses the autocannon, which was never a reason why anyone should have played this tank in the first place.  Stock 90hp engine is kept over the 110hp top engine.  Tank traverse buffed to 35 deg/s from 28.
    Kolohou
    No changes.  It was released with this change in mind already.
    Renault NC-31
    Loses the autocannon.  Top engine kept.  Tank traverse buffed anyways to 60 deg/s from 38.
    Renault Otsu
    Loses the top gun and 10mm of penetration as a result.  The autocannon now has more penetration than the available standard gun.  Top engine is kept, but the top radio is lost instead, losing 50m signal range from 350.  Tank traverse buffed to 40 deg/s from 36.
     
    It appears across the board that engines for these tanks are getting nerfed and tank traverse is being buffed to compensate for rotational mobility (loss of upgradable engines = weaker tank rotation, more on that here), though it doesn't appear to be done with much consistency or as a balance mechanism.  Most tanks will turn as well as they did before, but probably struggle more to get around the slopes of Mines.  There are also firepower nerfs across most of the board, which puts all of the tanks in pretty bad shape to compete with tier 2s, especially the ones that had the best chance (T1 and MS-1).
  3. Upvote
    WaterWar reacted to Kuroialty for a blog entry, First Impressions on the New Low Tier Map Rotation and Meta   
    Last week, I spent a few hundred battles playing the new I-Go.  I've been mildly interested in playing this tank ever since I'd first seen what kind of stats it would have.  Anything with 320m view range gets my attention.  On the other hand, from playing other Japanese low tiers in the past, I knew that I was going to struggle to make much use of it with its slow shell speed.
    But three weeks ago, I was thrown a curveball, a real game changer.  WG announced that they were going to mess with the map rotation of lower and middle tiers.  After a nice three to four years of becoming accustomed to the sniping metagame of tier 2 WoT, the maps were all getting replaced to promote a different style of game.  No more would there be the rock & bush camping of Malinovka or Province.  The vision game was apparently too difficult for new players to grasp.  I never felt that way when I started out.  I didn't find any problem grasping the ideas of "moving out into the open against enemies with guns will get me shot" and "far away objects can be hard to see" and adjusting my behavior accordingly.  Things like basic spatial awareness and survival instinct are just natural for me, I suppose.  Instead, maps like Mittengard and Ruinberg were given more prominent positions in the pool, promoting engagements at such close range that spotting enemies would be a given.
    This was done, as claimed by Storm, in an effort to curtail clubbing.  It's no secret that the players who wanted to be the best at tier 2 would become the best at playing the vision game that was so much more effective and versatile than doing anything else in the tier.  The logic was that by eliminating the vision game, you would be removing from clubbers their primary ability to prevent retaliation through hiding.  This would be reflected in their stats by them not being able to get as much damage or as many kills before they'd be knocked out, and this drop in stats would drive many clubbers away.  Overall, it was a huge misinterpretation by Storm and company on what motivates players to play in environments like tier 2, but that's the topic of a future blog post.
    What really was interesting about this change was what it did for the I-Go.  Slow shell speeds are a disaster for doing any kind of sniping, unless you're some kind of savant that can properly calculate slow shell travel time and line it up with enemy tank movement all in your head every two to three seconds that your gun reloads.  Even then, WoT has an unfriendly way of handling long distance shots against moving targets with slow shells.  No more large and open maps means no more distance sniping issues though.  This wasn't great just because it meant I could use more of the I-Go's full damage potential, but it was even more great that the I-Go's DPM was over 2k.  The only other thing close to that is the T18, which comes with a whole host of issues such like bad mobility and restrictive gun arc.  Previously, the tank with the highest DPM that I could really bear to play was my T2, but that only clocked in about 1.2k.  The output for the I-Go would be insane, and it was insane.  I had a blast playing through those I-Go battles.  In terms of stats, I managed to get better results in damage, kills, and win rate than I'd been doing before in recently playing with the M2A4 and Pz. 35t, and all of the battles were super fast so I could do a bunch more of them in the same amount of time.
    Strangely, I didn't seem to run into many other clubbers who adopted the I-Go.  I look at clubbers as having been segmented into the following groups:
    Those who didn't adapt (that should have) - These are the people who are still sticking with the tanks they played before the map rotation changed.  I'm mostly referring to any Cruiser III players out there.  These people are the worst kind of clubber, because it's clear that they only ended up choosing to play the Cruiser III because it was the best tank in the last meta and haven't changed because they're too stupid to figure out what's better.  I felt like I ran into lots of players like these, but it may have just been that they stuck out so much to me because of how obviously bad they were being. Those who ran away from Mittengard - Anybody who primarily stuck with tiers 1 or 2 that suddenly started playing a lot of T-127 or other preferential tier 3s.  Granted, the T-127 itself is pretty great against these new low tier Japanese tanks, but what I feel is more likely is that they're doing what they can to get out of playing Mittengard.  Mittengard itself still seems to be getting a lot of hate for being a bad map, and it is a bad map, but this new pool allows tanks to be chosen that play well on Mittengard because those tanks will play well on all the other maps too.  Instead of finding ways to make something good out of playing Mittengard, they ran into higher tiers where they wouldn't see it in their rotation.  Preferential tier 3s are ideal for this since they are still a low enough tier for games to be interesting and fun, but now high enough to miss playing Mittengard which shows up for 1s and 2s instead of 2s and 3s like before. Those who adapted (or didn't have to) - Basically anyone who spent a long time in low tiers that played an I-Go is in this category.  I've speculated before on what other tanks would make up the new low tier meta.  I-Go would be in there for sure.  The hard to penetrate French tanks would be there, the slightly armored and quick M2s would be there, and some of the better autocannon tanks like the Pz. II and Light VIC might show up a bit.  I remember seeing a lot of M2s, BT-2s, and Tetrarchs piloted by long time players counting on their speed to outplay the I-Gos. Those who quit or went elsewhere - It's hard to say how many really fit into this group. What I'm interested in figuring out next is where all of the tier 2 tanks stand in this new meta.  It's hard to look at things from just having played the I-Go.  The perspective is so high and makes everything else look so comparatively worse that it's impossible to tell what really stands out as being better or worse than other tanks.  I intend to spend the rest of the month with these Japanese heavies, working as far up the line as I can stand to do.  Playing other tier 2s to get a better perspective will have to wait.  I at least have some idea now though of where things will shake out.  The I-Go will stand at the top, and the T18 might not be far behind.  Below that will be the M2s followed by some combination of French tanks, standard gun tanks, and the couple of good autocannon tanks.  The other TDs will sit below that, followed by or mixed in with the worse autocannon tanks.  The bottom of the stack will be occupied by things like the Vickers Mk. II and the Te-Ke.  This is all working on the assumption that view range is far less important now and that alpha, armor, speed, and DPM are more important.  When September is over, the first thing I'll start playing with is the H35 with the 25mm gun and possibly the American M2.  That and one or two other tanks should be enough to paint the entire picture for where the tier 2 meta stands now.
    The map changes really didn't make much negative impact on what I find to be so good about playing tier 2, and certainly didn't do anything to make up for how shit everything in higher tiers works.  I think that after some time to adjust, players are going to go back to spending a lot of time in tier 2 because it still retains much of the appeal it had before.  WG will have to change things on a more fundamental and large-scale manner to get clubbers out of that environment completely.
     
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