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ps I like a hint of garlic in my “Carbonara”. My Italian mother in law disapproves (part of the reason I like it). She always, rightly, points out that garlic is used sparingly, if at all, in Italian food. Adding garlic to everything is a Greek thing.
2. People who are experts in a given cuisine define what's a definition for a given food. That's how life works. Experts give us definition of things, not random people. Otherwise everything would be total chaos and no word would have a defined meaning if everyone could assign his own meaning to words.
Also Carbonara in all of itally is without cream.
Also cultural approperiation in discusion relating to disrespecting and exploiting certain culture has a very specific meaning. Don't give me the word ethymology but how it's used in political discourse. Using your logic homofobe is not someone who hates gay people but someone who is afraid of people yet I think we both agree on the commonly used name.
4. Americans didn't approperiate british pie. The pie made in US was made by citizens of British ancestry in a foreign land FOR THEMSELVES and it was not an effort to capitalize on the popularity of the term British Pie. The people who changed the pie also for the most part knew what british pie was. Also apple pies are a global product. We have an apple pie in Poland which did not originate from UK.
5. Yes but you still have the same foundations of the dish including a reasonably large amount of sichuan pepper. Yeah if you use too much it will be shitty dan dan or shity tan tan but still it will be one of those 2 dishes.
6. Yeah but again that Indian Chef is not approperiating the cuisine since it's his own cuisine. It's a pararel case to viet-pol here. Vietnamese chefs may not respect viet-pol but none of them claims it's aproperiation.
7. Japanese curry is not approperiation in the modern political definition of the term. It was not made for marketing purposes or because it's popularity. The British and the Hindus under their rule brought the dish to Japan with them so it wasn't Japanese people approperiating it for themselves. The dish changed because of ingredients availability. Japanese curry is the same as Pol Viet and Curryhouses. I think we need a separate name. Maybe cuisine/cultural adaptation where a certain tradition adapts to the local enviroment.
8-9 - Even if you don't use the name "authentic" but simply use the word "Pho" or "Carbonara" for people uneducated in cuisine you may mislead them that's what that dish is. Then people from home countries of those dishes get pestered that they are doing their own dish wrong. I'm fine with twists on the dish. It just should be explicit the dish is different. I could even use the example of Japanese curry which doesn't use hindu names for curry.
Also finally and this is IMPORTANT - You mistake culture mixing, adaptation and evolution with approperiation. There is a big difference. You can make any dish you want and culture mixing creates great dishes. Like you mentioned - Wietnamese cuisine benefited greately from the horrible French ocupation, Balkans benefited from being occupied by the Turks. Mixing cultures is great for food. But mixing cultures and dish evolution is not cultural approperiation. I mentioned it above but I will repeat myself - approperiation is when you take a certain dish from a certain foreign to you culture, don't learn about it and then use it's name to sell a completely different product. It's a tiny difference. Want to make your own carbonara that's different from traditional carbonara? Don't call it "penne carbonara" or just carbonara. Call it carbonara with XXX or carbonara inspired something or carboramen or whatever so it's clear you are changing the dish. So you don't need cultural appoperiation to make great food since cultural approperiation relates ONLY to naming and not to the recipes themselves.
Seriously just be respectful to the culture you are borrowing from. I know some Vietnamese and Italian people who are deeply offended by what people do to their cusine. It's not hard to not be a dick but sometimes being a dick helps you make money and that's why it's wrong.
As soho said, the whole thing comes down to definitions.
@hazzgar I'd argue that definition wise, everything is total chaos because words by nature are incapable of containing fixed meaning. And no, experts don't define what food is what, unless you're talking about Gruyere vs Comte kind of labelling. Nor do laypeople. It's just an amorphous back and forth process that doesn't always have definite centres. Carbonara didn't happen because a Roman chef came out and pointed at a pasta dish with guanciale, pepper, yolks, peccorino and pasta water saying 'This is carbonara' - it just sort of happened.
But since you seem to like expert opinion, here's one:
Tldr appropriation just means taking over bits of culture from other cultures. In it's basic form, it's basically neutral. I.e. it's not because the definition I use is too loose, but because the particular brand of cultural appropriation, i.e. false claims of authenticity/taking names that is objected to is too narrow. Anyway I'm going to just agree to disagree.
If OTOH this is about whether it's fine to add tapioca to ramen and call it authentic anything, then sure it's not fine.
IMO the whole cultural appropriation being wrong fad happened because some people in the US were too easily offended, that's it.
When you take from another culture, you don't think about respect or disrespect (at least I don't) you just take it to do your own thing with it. And in a sane, sensible world you wouldn't bat an eye if someone else did the same.
Also I'm thinking about opening a food thread for everyone since these statuses get buried way to easily (hopey). Yay or nay?
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