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No t20 love?

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Also, I've probably mentioned this before, but if the T20's low paper DPM is actually getting to you, you're playing too far forward. Like any other tank the T20 should be up close when top tier, but otherwise the "best" way to play the tank is a lot more hellcat/leo/TD-esque than one might assume. It'll feel dirty playing semi-passively with a huge batch of gold, but you'll get absurdly good results for doing it.

Comet is very bad compared to the T20 currently. Its DPM only really comes into play in extended CQC fights. This and the extra 2 degrees of gun depression are its only real advantages over the T20. I could entertain the idea of the Comet being competitive while it had a decent mantlet, but now that the armor is not considerably better than the T20's, the comparison isn't even fair.

Agreed Rex.  Someone may already have made this rant in general, but DPM is an oft worshipped stat here and yeah, it's important, but it implies purely constant fire, you surviving in your tank the whole time and hitting/penning every time.  For some tanks DPM it makes a lot of sense, e.g. the AT-15a: I know with the quick reload, good apcr and gun stats, that I can buzzsaw anything I see in front of me in any game, just hold down the fire button and go to work. 

But for many tanks (like the T-44 and many other light mediums, LTs, derp heavies) DPM is one thing and "effective dpm", taking gun stats, survivability, pen, ability to hit weak spots, snapshot. Is different altogether and can be widely different and variable. 

It just grinds my gears when DPM is viewed as this end-all be-all stat when realistically having effective dpm and nominal dpm at parity usually means you are top tier beating up on lower tiers and/or bad players. There are many fine tanks in WoT with low dpm.  You have 15 minutes each game to dish out damage. 

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In conversations with @CraBeatOff we tend to use rDPM and eDPM rather frequently as shorthand: raw DPM and effective DPM. Most recently, we were talking about the TVP VTU Koncept which has much higher rDPM than the Pershing, but the gun handling, depression, paper mantlet and mediocre pen characteristics render its eDPM much lower.

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Also, I've probably mentioned this before, but if the T20's low paper DPM is actually getting to you, you're playing too far forward. Like any other tank the T20 should be up close when top tier, but otherwise the "best" way to play the tank is a lot more hellcat/leo/TD-esque than one might assume. It'll feel dirty playing semi-passively with a huge batch of gold, but you'll get absurdly good results for doing it.

Comet is very bad compared to the T20 currently. Its DPM only really comes into play in extended CQC fights. This and the extra 2 degrees of gun depression are its only real advantages over the T20. I could entertain the idea of the Comet being competitive while it had a decent mantlet, but now that the armor is not considerably better than the T20's, the comparison isn't even fair.

One addition to Rexxie's comment is that it's not only the physical tank differences, the play styles are obviously different for the T20 and Comet.  Players often take to one style or the other (or in some cases neither) and obviously gain a preference for one tank over the other (due to their performance) outside of the contrasting physical stats.

P.S. Rip comet mantlet.

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Also, I've probably mentioned this before, but if the T20's low paper DPM is actually getting to you, you're playing too far forward. Like any other tank the T20 should be up close when top tier, but otherwise the "best" way to play the tank is a lot more hellcat/leo/TD-esque than one might assume. It'll feel dirty playing semi-passively with a huge batch of gold, but you'll get absurdly good results for doing it.

Comet is very bad compared to the T20 currently. Its DPM only really comes into play in extended CQC fights. This and the extra 2 degrees of gun depression are its only real advantages over the T20. I could entertain the idea of the Comet being competitive while it had a decent mantlet, but now that the armor is not considerably better than the T20's, the comparison isn't even fair.

That playstyle does not sit very well with me and as it's a grind to tier 10 account not a pad my stats account the APCR spam just isn't an option.

Sure 160 is better than 148, but it's not much better and the Comet does not care about misses and bounces as much because it can spam shots at things and when it has an opportunity to punish something it punishes them, whereas missing/bouncing a shot in  the T20 is painful as you are suddenly in an E100 doing 240 damage. It feels like you are slowly stealing damage compared to really making use of your plays or enemy miss plays. 

I've always liked DPM, well ROF, and this is an advantage to a Comet to do medium things that a t20 is less able to do.

 

 

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I wonder why people give so much T20 love and many think T25/2 is such a turd? Only stats that seem to be in T20 favour are horsepower per ton and terrain resistance values, also turret traverse is quicker. Top speed is the same. Hitpoints favor T20 strongly. T20 is smaller.

Normal AP rate of fire, aim time and pen are better in T25/2. Shell velocity is over 100m/s better. T25/2 has even a mantlet that can make a few bounces too, perhaps nullifying the T20 hitpoint advantage. You could say that the T25/2 has the best gun of all tier7 mediums (it is a TD.. yeah right).

Camo and view range are effectively the same. Still T25/2 is very rare thing to see. I myself don´t see anything wrong with T25/2 and think that T20 is good too. But the difference to me isn´t that big that T25/2 should get so much flak and T20 love. The world, yet again, isn´t fair!

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Use hills and ridge lines to your advantage. Poking and showing only turret. Alpha is nice and gets around the long reload if you can take proper cover between shots. Armor is crap (non-existent) but stops HE at least. Don´t get into dpm wars with comets or cromwells. Poke - shoot - reverse - reload - poke works.

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I didn't understand what a medium tank was until I played the T20.

My first tanks were all the American lines when I started playing WoT and I leveled up all the lines at the same time.  The Shermans were fine...actually kind of lulz because the M4 had a derp back then, but I had no clue as to what I was doing.  The "just flank them" advice was hard because if not derping, the pew pew guns meant long exposure and I never figured how to actually do it.  Shermans are some tall boxy tanks. 

Then I got tier 7, the beast known as the T20, and everything changed.  You get a gun that feels like a tank gun, no more pew pew but a great handling boomstick.  You could pop up, shoot and be gone, then pop up somewhere else.  T20 is like the cross between a master ninja and an annoying mosquito.  And everything is smooth as silk.  Something not counted in the stats, the suspension, is king on the T20.  Its not a Comet that will rattle your teeth on every bump in the road, you are driving the Cadillac of tanks.  

I think its overlooked because tier 7 is not really a "keeper" tier as in Strongholds/Team Battles and if you are going to keep an American tier 7 the T29 is ridiculously strong and much easier to use.  And even if you only played the USA mediums its hard to pass up moving your good crew into the Pershing.

I'd buy the T20 for sure if I had the crew for it.  It often feels like this game is more about collecting crews than tanks.

On 1/18/2016 at 5:26 AM, TohtoriP said:

I wonder why people give so much T20 love and many think T25/2 is such a turd? Only stats that seem to be in T20 favour are horsepower per ton and terrain resistance values, also turret traverse is quicker. Top speed is the same. Hitpoints favor T20 strongly. T20 is smaller.

Normal AP rate of fire, aim time and pen are better in T25/2. Shell velocity is over 100m/s better. T25/2 has even a mantlet that can make a few bounces too, perhaps nullifying the T20 hitpoint advantage. You could say that the T25/2 has the best gun of all tier7 mediums (it is a TD.. yeah right).

Camo and view range are effectively the same. Still T25/2 is very rare thing to see. I myself don´t see anything wrong with T25/2 and think that T20 is good too. But the difference to me isn´t that big that T25/2 should get so much flak and T20 love. The world, yet again, isn´t fair!

I also loved the T25/2.  I think it gets a bad rap because people feel like its a downgrade of a Hellcat (it might be) but really its a upgraded Jackson placed in the wrong line.  I played it when the vision/spotting mechanic was different but when I had it the viewrange could be exploited like crazy.  As in Russian heavies are blind as shit at that tier and there are a ton of them around (at least there was when I played it).  The gun I think is either exactly the same or just barely better than a Hellcat's gun so that makes people a little salty too.  

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I never quite got around the accuracy and shell velocity combo of the 90 mm. 0.38? Too derpy for me. 0.36 on Cromwell works, and Comet has even better acc (but  rest of the package is lame). Gold helps a bit by trying to hit a tank, not weakspots, but new IS-3 makes even that a dicey game. Tracking no dmg shots also occurred too often for me.

Playing both the prenerfed Hellcat, and recent patch, 0.35 a tier lower works like a charm fully aimed, while 0.38 even fully aimed is too often not enough. This tank is almost obsolete because of the meta changes, but once in a while on Malinovka/Sand River/Prokhorovka you have the option of shooting unspotted from draw range, and most of the fully aimed shots on stationary targets miss. I would rather spam 77 mm gun, so machine gun effect (0.34/0.36) will hit more in a given amount of time.

Kinda defeat the purpose of camo and 390 base view range, when 300 m is about the maximum engagement envelope. And I am not taking into account the Tiger standing in the open, but some (not too hard) turret beyond that range, or partially concealed tank. Every miss (on dat reload) makes my impact weaker in the first 2 min of the game...after that it is all decided for better or worse...but when the ball gets rolling...

P.S. corridor meta favors Comet more, actually (i.e. makes less powercreeped). With vision gone it could still circle slow lumbering heavies to death...and peek-a-boo even with gold in T20 is not gonna win you a medal...and it is just too fat and sluggish to do the circle of death...and too low "paper" dpm, because you put 2 shots in heavy ass before he gets backup or put his fat ass in a wall, and then gg.

Comet armor nerf HD model is real, tho. Bye bye mantlet.

Tier 7 mediums were never so shit as today. Tier 6 are still on a rampage, and Obj 416 is always OP.

It is literally better to be in a tier 6 medium in a tier 7 battle, because that way your team probably have top tier heavy vs enemy top tier Panther/Comet and a good player can still do good job of supporting/scouting...even better then enemy tier 7s if the tank is Cromwell. Dat speed and dpm.

Oh, and less arty focus as bottom tier medium. All above = WR.

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On ‎18‎/‎01‎/‎2016 at 6:26 AM, TohtoriP said:

I wonder why people give so much T20 love and many think T25/2 is such a turd? 

Snip

The world, yet again, isn´t fair!

Its pretty much because of what you highlighted.  Giving up the maneuverability, hp, camo, and view range, for 10mm of AP pen and a theoretical raw dpm advantage (where you cant maneuver to use it) doesn't balance out.  One tank can manoeuver around the battlefield and do medium/light duties and one cant.  In the current corridor meta moving and flanking is king.  You can say the T25/2 isn't a TD but it sure isn't a med/light or anything close...  

T20                                  T25/2

Accuracy

0.36

0.35

 

Dispersion (moving)

0.20

0.23

 

… (tank traverse)

0.20

0.23

 

… (turret traverse)

0.12

0.12

 

Reverse Speed (km/h)

20

15

 

Power (hp)

560

704

 

Power/Weight (hp/t)

18.34

16.03

 

 

Terrain Resist (hard)

0.96

1.15

 

Terrain Resist (medium)

1.05

1.34

 

Terrain Resist (soft)

1.63

2.21

 

Turret Traverse (°/sec)

43.80

18.77

 

Hull Armor (mm)

63 / 50 / 38

76 / 50 / 38

 

Turret Armor (mm)

88 / 63 / 63

76 / 25 / 25

 

Track Armor (mm)

20

20

 

Health

1,100

850

 

 

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14 hours ago, 8_Hussars said:

Its pretty much because of what you highlighted.  Giving up the maneuverability, hp, camo, and view range, for 10mm of AP pen and a theoretical raw dpm advantage (where you cant maneuver to use it) doesn't balance out.  One tank can manoeuver around the battlefield and do medium/light duties and one cant.  In the current corridor meta moving and flanking is king.  You can say the T25/2 isn't a TD but it sure isn't a med/light or anything close...  

T20                                  T25/2

Accuracy

0.36

0.35

 

Dispersion (moving)

0.20

0.23

 

… (tank traverse)

0.20

0.23

 

… (turret traverse)

0.12

0.12

 

Reverse Speed (km/h)

20

15

 

Power (hp)

560

704

 

Power/Weight (hp/t)

18.34

16.03

 

 

Terrain Resist (hard)

0.96

1.15

 

Terrain Resist (medium)

1.05

1.34

 

Terrain Resist (soft)

1.63

2.21

 

Turret Traverse (°/sec)

43.80

18.77

 

Hull Armor (mm)

63 / 50 / 38

76 / 50 / 38

 

Turret Armor (mm)

88 / 63 / 63

76 / 25 / 25

 

Track Armor (mm)

20

20

 

Health

1,100

850

 

 

Those numbers also dont show the whole deal, especially bloom wise, the 2x faster turret traverse of the T20 gives it 2x as much bloom from moving the turret, while the better mobility of the T20 combined with little wose base accurac and slower aim time probably cancel out the other soft stats advantages.

I think that all in all the T25/2 has better gun handling, on top of way better dpm, and a penetration advantage, 10 more with AP and 25 with APCR.

T25/2 is ofc significant slower, and a bit taller, it also has less view range and worse camo...

I cant really judge the T25/2 though, i played it before gold ammo for credits, so its too long ago, i really did like it back then, and it was at that point perhaps the best tier 7 TD

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15 hours ago, Felicius said:

Could not be worse anyway.

I hope they made the model smaller, since it is quite big...easy target for all but 0.4+ acc.

Size is underrated category among mediums...

The T20 is already rather small...

As for your other post regarding the T20 being "obsolete"... lolwat? No really.... lolfuckingwat???????

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2 hours ago, canadiantrex said:

The T20 is already rather small...

As for your other post regarding the T20 being "obsolete"... lolwat? No really.... lolfuckingwat???????

Corridor meta, and flatting out of the maps. 390 m view range that is useful once in 10 matches, because all the fight usually takes place in less than 300 m...and with good crew and optics 350 becomes 400, while 390 coming to 450 is not all that useful unless Prok/Sand/Malinovka, and that great gun depression is not all that useful today.

Regarding gun depression, some maps have so steep hills. Overlord comes to mind, 10 degrees of gun depression is not enough on a lot of spots there...while on most of others 6-8 will do.

it is still great to have so good gun depression and view range, but i would rather have the armor, or dpm, or  more speed.

It is still a great tank, but tier 8 heavies are on a rampage right now, and T29 got a nice buff too with the HD model...now bounces 175 mm guns if they hit the track links...I try to hide right side of the hull and show only left if iI could not go hull down...works great, armor use efe rough guess got up by 20-30%...much easier to crush lower tiers now (tier 6 heavies, bad penetration 7s, and limited mm prems that shoot AP only on my UFP  without aiming carefully)

South coast was one of the maps T20 could carry hard, but got removed. In the last 2-3 years some other maps got changed or removed too, all great for T20 (old swamp? got aces there in T20 all the time) Northwest, Pearl River...Now the meta is bad for a medium that is not either lightning fast or have at least some armor usable against lower tiers...and bad dpm hurts when battles are 4 min long, and by min 2 all is decided.

Still the best in its class/tier. But for the reasons above, i have sold it. I missed it at first, but all the changes WG made since then made me stop regretting that decision.

Severogorsk got removed, and that is one bad map against at least 3-4 great ones removed/changed, while so many new opnes introduced are much worse for T20 than Severogorsk (Stalingrad, Plsen, Kharkov...)

34-1 can use the rubble piles, and its derpy gun is now more at home on the above mentioned maps. Still too bad gun handling to endure, unless you run food, thou...

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On 2/13/2016 at 10:59 AM, Felicius said:

Corridor meta, and flatting out of the maps. 390 m view range that is useful once in 10 matches, because all the fight usually takes place in less than 300 m...and with good crew and optics 350 becomes 400, while 390 coming to 450 is not all that useful unless Prok/Sand/Malinovka, and that great gun depression is not all that useful today.

Regarding gun depression, some maps have so steep hills. Overlord comes to mind, 10 degrees of gun depression is not enough on a lot of spots there...while on most of others 6-8 will do.

it is still great to have so good gun depression and view range, but i would rather have the armor, or dpm, or  more speed.

It is still a great tank, but tier 8 heavies are on a rampage right now, and T29 got a nice buff too with the HD model...now bounces 175 mm guns if they hit the track links...I try to hide right side of the hull and show only left if iI could not go hull down...works great, armor use efe rough guess got up by 20-30%...much easier to crush lower tiers now (tier 6 heavies, bad penetration 7s, and limited mm prems that shoot AP only on my UFP  without aiming carefully)

South coast was one of the maps T20 could carry hard, but got removed. In the last 2-3 years some other maps got changed or removed too, all great for T20 (old swamp? got aces there in T20 all the time) Northwest, Pearl River...Now the meta is bad for a medium that is not either lightning fast or have at least some armor usable against lower tiers...and bad dpm hurts when battles are 4 min long, and by min 2 all is decided.

Still the best in its class/tier. But for the reasons above, i have sold it. I missed it at first, but all the changes WG made since then made me stop regretting that decision.

Severogorsk got removed, and that is one bad map against at least 3-4 great ones removed/changed, while so many new opnes introduced are much worse for T20 than Severogorsk (Stalingrad, Plsen, Kharkov...)

34-1 can use the rubble piles, and its derpy gun is now more at home on the above mentioned maps. Still too bad gun handling to endure, unless you run food, thou...

T20 USA MT 7 166 73.49% 1678

 

Such obsolete. Much useless. Many wows.

 

 

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When i said it could not be worse i meant armor model. Tank is still the best tier 7 med, but that is not much to say it. 

Your WR is the same as in KV-5, just indicating a very good player, not a tank above average in any way...and not sure how many of those battles you played back in the vision meta.

If i got those results, it would be OP.

P.S. I expected more than ad hominem arguments from you, even supportive ones.

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1 hour ago, Felicius said:

Your WR is the same as in KV-5, just indicating a very good player, not a tank above average in any way...

Well, the KV-5 is also really good, so...

I'm having a hard time understanding where your complaints lie; you mentioned the tank is obsolete, but then that it's also still great and the best in class/tier later in the same post. Is your complaint that it's only "really good" instead of "broken good" like it used to be? That's a rather odd complaint, don't you think?

I don't want to sound like a jerk, but it comes across like you want to complain about the tank without hearing any backlash, so you just sprinkle a few "yeah its really good, but..." in there for good measure.

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31 minutes ago, Rexxie said:

"yeah its really good, but..." 

Well, it is good in class...tier 7 meds...not in tier, I put that wrong. Simply, tier 7 meds suck. Being the best of the weak group does not make you strong. 

It is not as good compared to same tier heavies, which simply dominate 4 min gameplay...and your team dissolves too fast. Battles are too short to have big impact as before.

I have no regrets hearing different opinions, i came here to learn and improve. Watching replays gives me a lot of insight, but a good discussion is needed for to see the light sometimes.  You don't  sound like a jerk Rexxie, you are always polite when discussing even tanks close to your heart,,,which is hard for most ppl...

Once upon a time, tier 7 meds could vision kite tier 7 and 8 heavies, and slap them with gold (T20). Now this is over except on a very small map percentage.

KV-5 being really good...well...maybe in the hands of a few...wrong thread to discuss this.

It was really good before. I played it a few battles in the "old" days with vision meta, better map selection...but elited it in this meta.  Decided not to go along that line, and retrained my crew for T67 (ok, i like to club seals, since i am not so good)

It was "broken good" before, now it is not even  "really good" in 3/4 maps...

P.S. after IS-6 HD model, even the staunchest apologetics of KV-5 should admit the state of things...IS-6 unangled armor is even now stronger than non-weakspot KV-5 armor...if i miss the R2D2 with BL9 it still pens the turret behind it with AP...

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I love mine. Felicius I think you are wrong about how long battles last in t7. 4 minutes? They are fast but nowhere near as fast. You also have enough speed to retreat and punish your attackers if your team fails. On the other hand you have enough speed and vision to do early scouting and early damage. I'm a 54% player in most t7-t9 tanks I play, I get only 52% in my is6 because I'm an idiot but in my t20 in the first 43 battles I played (still some grinding to do) I am sitting at 65% WR currently. 

 

The only problem with the tank is the accuracy being bad at long ranges. Still it's hard to say this tank performs badly when it's basically a smaller AMX CDC at a trier lower that is more resistant to HE and has higher alpha relative to it's peers. 

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43 battles are way too low to get any kind of statistics out of it...had 85% WR solopub on many tanks when under 50 battles...which eventually ended as 65-70%. Come back with 100+battles.

That accuracy is pretty bad for a tank that is a dedicated sniper, since it is too slow (low acc, bleeds speed cornering...). Ridge surfing is also a big exposure, since to pop up, aim fully (or you will hit the dirt beyond 100 m), take a shot and retreat you need 4-5 seconds...and it is simply too much to avoid being shot back. If you snipe while not spotted, i found Comet alpha to be better, since i could put 2 shots in the target before it could pull back in safety. 0.34 vs 0.38 means that you have a much better chance of hitting the enemy, 40 mm of APCR penetration is not worth it for me. And trying to trade in a tier 7 medium is a bad tactic anyway...while ass raping is more viable than ever...and new Jap heavies are perfect fore sidehug.

Mami_Momoe basically said it right, but he was rude in stating it, and too harsh IMHO, since other tier 7 mediums are also pile of junk (Comet and A-44 have some redeeming qualities, but both are significantly worse than both the preceding tanks, and the ones that follow, while T-43 might be the same as T20 and Comet-never played, cant confirm), this one is just obsolete since corridor meta.

Easy 8 is better than this one. DPM is useful when fighting hordes of reds. Dispersion is much better tier wise, and it gets Vstab at tier 6. 

Some ppl before mentioned that great APCR round is making T20 still relevant. Well, tank with good hard stats vs bad soft stats were always the dilemma, and each case is different.

Maybe it is just that tier 6 mm is better, since you can club seals easier...

P.S.tier 7 CDC is a good comparison...and CDC is a joke of a tank...one medium i fear the least (except Panthers), and load HE to blast him to pieces on every gun bigger that 75 mm.

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