Bun's thread of Transitional Cataloging and discussion (and shenanigans).

[AnArmyofBun 1,122]

I'm kinky as hell. I was just teasing.

[Inciatus 1,124]

1 hour ago, AnArmyofBun said:

I'm kinky as hell. I was just teasing.

Apparently all of us in this thread except maybe vac are kinky fuckers.

[CiDisguise 60]

2 minutes ago, Inciatus said:

Apparently all of us in this thread except maybe vac are kinky fuckers.

Why do you assume I'm the odd one out?

[Inciatus 1,124]

7 minutes ago, CiDisguise said:

Why do you assume I'm the odd one out?

Because of our conversations about who you do and don't find attractive. I have to be vague as I'm not sure the amount of information it would be acceptable to state. Also in almost any circumstance with me and other people you are usually the odd one out.

[Alesia 339]

I'm kinky as fuck but I'm also willing to ride dick for rent at this point so who knows.

 

*flops back into the water

[Inciatus 1,124]

I love the image of Alesia saying that then trying to get back into the sea in some floppy bouncy way. It is an adorable image :3.

[Inciatus 1,124]

I have good news but not enough time to write out a full post so I'll just leave these cute images of a bunny and a velociraptor.

Bun destroys a bathroom

I am now a Disney Princess I guess

[Inciatus 1,124]

Anyway I can actually write out the post now.

So last week my mother took the letter home so my father could read it though he didn't get back until late in the week. I don't know how he took it since my mom hasn't said much of anything about it. I expect he took it decently well since they've been looking at doctors and insurance stuff. My dad hasn't said anything to me about it yet. I imagine he either doesn't know what to say or he might just see it as a medical problem like if I told him my ankles were having problems again or he just has a lot of other things on his mind. Regardless, it's actually pretty frustrating honestly.

I also talked with my sister about it through text and then a phone call. Since I was expecting she would be sort of excited about it I decided I was going to tell her in a more amusing way. She has for a long time wanted a sister and I told her that her wish of getting one was true. It did misfire slightly because she thought I was getting engaged and then several times thought I was joking and calling me to verify it wasn't a joke. After a little bit she then got very cute and squeaky as we talked. It was a very nice conversation and she seems pretty excited to help me learn to girl. She did note that I was going to have a terrible time with clothing because we are shaped the same and she has a terrible time with clothing because we have short ass legs so jeans are nearly impossible to find pairs that aren't too long (which I can confirm is in fact a problem either too long or no butt). She seems to have ideas about what to do with my hair as it grows longer to help deal with my grey hair rather than just dying it (though by the time I'm like 35 my hair will probably all be a pretty silver which at least is sort of in right now). She was also telling me about good straighteners and curling irons because I have hair like my mothers (except for the graying bit) which is nearly impossible to deal with because of Floridian humidity. I did have to point out to her that my hair wasn't going to immediately be that long. Also she says that she needs to fix my eyebrows and that I suck at taking selfies and that we could have fun shopping together or at least talking about shopping and getting ice cream or something instead because she actually doesn't enjoy it but the idea of going shopping is fun and ice cream is good.

So far things have been going very well for me and I've been very fortunate so I'm quite happy overall. It also looks like the insurance we have covers transgender stuff which is pretty great except that there don't seem to be many therapists in East-Central Florida that actually take United Healthcare.

Also happy Rosh Hashana!

Bun eating some apples and honey to celebrate the new year

L'shana tovah!

[Alesia 339]

Congrats @Inciatus

 

Could only wish to have a family that is so supportive

[Inciatus 1,124]

Thanks @Alesia

Actually shortly after I posted that I went on my walk and I did talk with my father mostly about things unrelated like business stuff and what I cooked for dinner and such and he did finally talk to me about it, I guess he never had a chance to talk about it while I was home over the weekend. He doesn't have any issue with it and says he's known for years and just wanted to wait until I was comfortable enough to tell people. From one side that's great, from another side a bit of hints or something or even just sitting down a talking with me about it would've been great rather than growing up thinking I was some sick fuck and we probably could have dealt with this sooner like when we had super porky insurance instead of just pretty good insurance. Interestingly enough he was happy that I had told my mother rather than him having to tell her because he was afraid how she would take it. I can understand that since she is much more emotional though it is sort of ironic.

Though that does now mean I have strong support from everyone in my immediate family.

[BiggieD61 364]

Okay

Before you guys respond, please consider my age ( 55 ) and life experience ( 26 years married and 3 sons ) before you answer my question.

Isn't it possible that you could just live your lives as feminine men ( not necessarily gay or homosexual ) who did not want to accept typical male roles, and still be happy in your femininity?  I see men all the time who are feminine, whose wives take on more of a "head of family" role and are the disciplinarians in the household.  Everyone is happy in their niche, the neighbors are accepting, the kids are accepting, it all seems to work.  I am asking this, "Is it necessary to have a non-biologically functioning vagina and breasts ( minus ovaries and uterus ) to live a happy life as a man who feels like a women?  If the technology existed to let you change sexes flawlessly and bear children, then nurse them from your own breasts - I could more easily understand this desire to change sexes.  Despite all the superficial and cosmetic surgery available for people who want to change sex, we are still far away from functional change.  Is the desire to change that strong that you would prefer being an imperfect woman to being a feminine man?

[CiDisguise 60]

3 minutes ago, BiggieD61 said:

I am asking this, "Is it necessary to have a non-biologically functioning vagina and breasts

I'm on my lunch break. I'll write a more general response later when I have the time. For now, just want to make a quick note that breasts are functionally universal- Yours are the same as everyone else's, they're just not as well developed as those of approximately half of the population. That's not difficult to change.

TL;DR: Breasts are 100% functional

[BiggieD61 364]

50 minutes ago, CiDisguise said:

TL;DR: Breasts are 100% functional

Not really, a man cannot provide milk for children from his breasts - both male and female have breast tissue and nipples, but men don't get that hormone boost to produce milk from their breasts.  That is what I meant by "functional" -  the analogy is that you can build a wall, but if it has not support within it, it will not bear any weight - therefore it is not a "structural" wall. By appearance it is a wall, but by function - it is purely cosmetic.

[CiDisguise 60]

31 minutes ago, BiggieD61 said:

By appearance it is a wall, but by function - it is purely cosmetic.

I'll preface proceeding with this line of inquiry by noting that this is largely irrelevant to the larger question, which will require a more thorough answer. That said, I'm enjoying making this case and will continue.

 

Consider the situation of a cis woman who can't have children for reasons beyond her control. Does that make her breasts defective? I certainly wouldn't say so.

Consider that from a biological angle, anyone who has had a hysterectomy is in essentially the same situation as, say, Bun. There is no appreciable functional difference at that point. Does that make a survivor of endometrial cancer less of a woman? Less complete? Less purposeful?

I doubt that you or any other reasonable person would make the case for that. 

[BiggieD61 364]

19 minutes ago, CiDisguise said:

Consider the situation of a cis woman who can't have children for reasons beyond her control. Does that make her breasts defective? I certainly wouldn't say so.

I agree, wet nurses have a long history in all civilizations, being able to feed infants before the advent of modern formula was often a life saver for new borns.  The ability to provide sustenance for infants is the primary use of a woman's breasts - fashion may say differently, but biology is pretty clear here.  Plumping out the front of a sweater is a obtainable without surgery, and unless a facsimile of femaleness while nude is the objective - breast enhancement does not seem neccessary.   I have seen Tig Notaro topless on her new show "One Mississippi", she has no breast tissue or nipples - she is still inherently a woman to me ...

23 minutes ago, CiDisguise said:

Consider that from a biological angle, anyone who has had a hysterectomy is in essentially the same situation as, say, Bun. There is no appreciable functional difference at that point. Does that make a survivor of endometrial cancer less of a woman? Less complete? Less purposeful?

It does not make her less of a person - but the bigger question we are looking at is this:  What is the function of a woman who cannot or has not ( will not ) bear children?  Women who have to have a hysterectomy for a medical reason are certainly not less of a woman than before the operation, but why have such a procedure ( removal of penis and construction of a vagina ) if it won't make you any more of a woman than by not having the procedure? 

Simply put - to me a man born anatomically a man, can be as womanly as any woman by his/her decisions and attitude, constructed breasts and vagina don't make it any more real for me.  Obviously it's not my body or my psyche - so I can only view these things as an observer.  Perhaps I will never be able to fully understand this drive for surgery, but I am trying to empathize with those who feel it is necessary.

[CiDisguise 60]

1 hour ago, BiggieD61 said:

Plumping out the front of a sweater is a obtainable without surgery, and unless a facsimile of femaleness while nude is the objective - breast enhancement does not seem neccessary.

A minor technical point:

I suspect I was insufficiently clear earlier. There's no surgery involved here. Nothing more dramatic than holding a little estrogen tablet under one's tongue every morning needs to happen. Puberty doesn't have to be a 1-time thing. 

As someone who's had a slight hormonal imbalance for years, I can attest that it takes remarkably little to get started, as well.

 

The rest of your post ties back into your first, and I'll address that when I'm not at work.

Edited October 4, 2016 by CiDisguise
Fixed double quote box

[Inciatus 1,124]

3 hours ago, BiggieD61 said:

Okay

Before you guys respond, please consider my age ( 55 ) and life experience ( 26 years married and 3 sons ) before you answer my question.

Isn't it possible that you could just live your lives as feminine men ( not necessarily gay or homosexual ) who did not want to accept typical male roles, and still be happy in your femininity?  I see men all the time who are feminine, whose wives take on more of a "head of family" role and are the disciplinarians in the household.  Everyone is happy in their niche, the neighbors are accepting, the kids are accepting, it all seems to work.  I am asking this, "Is it necessary to have a non-biologically functioning vagina and breasts ( minus ovaries and uterus ) to live a happy life as a man who feels like a women?  If the technology existed to let you change sexes flawlessly and bear children, then nurse them from your own breasts - I could more easily understand this desire to change sexes.  Despite all the superficial and cosmetic surgery available for people who want to change sex, we are still far away from functional change.  Is the desire to change that strong that you would prefer being an imperfect woman to being a feminine man?

This is going to be a pretty long reply so just a heads up.

For some people, that answer to that question is yes, for others the answer is no. For most of us in this thread me, vac, bun, alesia, verity the answer is a no. Consider that roughly 0.3% are considered to be trans* where only about 1/17000 natal males and 1/36000 natal females (those number might be off I'm sure vac will correct them) will fully transition to include SRS/GCS. While the disparity in the numbers are influenced by a number of causes including cost, effectiveness of the results, and other more personal reasons like that it is very painful and messy and may require an extended time off, the difference in numbers is simply because not all trans* people feel that strongly about their genitals. With autism for example there is a wide spectrum of severity from people who appear and act otherwise completely normally that you would never tell unless they told you to people who are severely affected by it that they can have severe trouble with everyday things with 4channers at the extreme low functioning end (this last bit is a joke). Similarly trans* people also have a similar spectrum with some people happy to live as men and every once in a while wear a set of women's underpants to people like bun and me and some of the others that are very much affected by it that we either have or very likely will have SRS/GCS done. A lot of this spectrum get into the finer differences between the different trans* prefixed words (trans-butene not withstanding) and various gender varient and gender non-conforming groups largely placed under the trans* umbrella.

Also depending on how you define functional the breasts and vagina/vulva are functional. I explain more about the breasts in the next section. As for the vagina, the nerves are preserved such that the system is sensate in a manner typical of a natal woman. Trans* women can enjoy sex much as natal women can and the aesthetic and functional results are similar to that of a natal woman except for a couple very small parts that unless you specifically know what they are and where to look for them you likely wont find. There are even some trans* women who have experienced lubrication similar to what a natal woman would experience. There are of course some differences, the vaginas of trans* women are less stretchy than those of natal women so they obviously cannot give birth or particularly large dicks if they are a size queen. They require certain maintenance with cleaning and ensuring the system doesnt collapse and close though natal women have their own maintenance they have to perform. Unfortunately it is true that we are quite far away from being able to change to the point where we can get pregnant and carry children, there are a number of people who believe it could be done sometime in the near future with uterine transplants or perhaps development of the uterus using stem cells and forcing an androgen insensitivity. Regardless, even in the current situation the fact that we won't be able to carry children is just something we have to deal with and we aren't particularly alone in that fact. There are almost as many people with androgen insensitivity syndrome as there are transwomen who undergo SRS/GCS and there are many more natal women who find out they are infertile and unable to have children; I suppose at the very least we go in knowing that.

The answer to your last question for everyone in here should be obvious. Gender transition is not an easy thing, it is not a fun thing, it is not a fashionable thing. We do it because we have to because we have a medical problem with a medical solution. If I, or anyone else here for that matter, could live happily as an effeminate man we absolutely would. There are quite a few people here like @Rexxie that are perfectly happy to live as effeminate men that for a long time I thought he was a girl and fairly often have to remind myself of the fact that he isnt a girl (though he is adorable regardless).

2 hours ago, BiggieD61 said:

Not really, a man cannot provide milk for children from his breasts - both male and female have breast tissue and nipples, but men don't get that hormone boost to produce milk from their breasts.  That is what I meant by "functional" -  the analogy is that you can build a wall, but if it has not support within it, it will not bear any weight - therefore it is not a "structural" wall. By appearance it is a wall, but by function - it is purely cosmetic.

So in part of the transition process something called HRT (Hormone Replacement Therapy) is performed which prevents Testosterone generation and the supplements the body with Estrogen through oral tablets, patches, or shots. The body then reacts similarly to a girl going through puberty and breasts will develop though often the fat displacement will be less than in a natal female and depending on the age the breasts may not reach Tanner IV stage of development often reaching Tanner III (so they will be a bit smaller and pointier where the areola may protrude more). These breasts can actually produce milk though they may require more 'encouragement' than a natal female undergoing pregnancy in a manner similar to what a natal female who is having the child carried by a surrogate might do to encourage milk production. 

30 minutes ago, BiggieD61 said:

I agree, wet nurses have a long history in all civilizations, being able to feed infants before the advent of modern formula was often a life saver for new borns.  The ability to provide sustenance for infants is the primary use of a woman's breasts - fashion may say differently, but biology is pretty clear here.  Plumping out the front of a sweater is a obtainable without surgery, and unless a facsimile of femaleness while nude is the objective - breast enhancement does not seem neccessary.   I have seen Tig Notaro topless on her new show "One Mississippi", she has no breast tissue or nipples - she is still inherently a woman to me ...

It does not make her less of a person - but the bigger question we are looking at is this:  What is the function of a woman who cannot or has not ( will not ) bear children?  Women who have to have a hysterectomy for a medical reason are certainly not less of a woman than before the operation, but why have such a procedure ( removal of penis and construction of a vagina ) if it won't make you any more of a woman than by not having the procedure? 

Simply put - to me a man born anatomically a man, can be as womanly as any woman by his/her decisions and attitude, constructed breasts and vagina don't make it any more real for me.  Obviously it's not my body or my psyche - so I can only view these things as an observer.  Perhaps I will never be able to fully understand this drive for surgery, but I am trying to empathize with those who feel it is necessary.

Women's breasts serve purposes besides solely for the nursing of children. They also serve as use to attract a mate and some studies of evolution of humans have shown that breasts began to develop as we began to walk more upright likely for the purposes of attracting a mate. This latter effect is why people love boobs and why they do feature prominently in fashion. Breast development will occur with the hormones from HRT though the growth and development will be affected by a number of factors including age and genetics. Many transwomen will choose to have breast augmentation. In many ways this isn't any different than a natal woman choosing to have a breast augmentation. For many transwomen breast augmentation can help to further relieve body dysphoria. Due to the lessened breast development and the broadness of the chest many transwomen may find that their body dysphoria may persist. This state is similar to a woman who might experience depression or anxiety about being less of a woman after having a bilateral mastectomy.

Now one important concept here is the concept of passing, which is that if you walk somewhere people will see you and recognize you as a girl. For many trans* people this may not be possible but for a large number, especially younger trans* people it is bun being a good example. Passing is generally quite important and desired for one it lets you integrate into society without being an outcast and it will also significantly reduce your risk of violence both of which are very good for things like stress and anxiety. The difference between recognizing someone as a man or a woman can involve a number of very small details and small cues. Now certainly if we stuck a pair of breasts on you biggie as you currently look (or at least how your avatar currently looks) you would not be recognized as a woman. Now hormones will help a lot in softening the face and the skin, hair generation, smell, fat distribution and other things that will help to identify a person as a woman but there are certain features that will not change such as the broadness of the shoulders and chest, a lack of hips, and a couple other things. The broadness of the chest combined with the reduced breast growth will often make breasts appear very small. This combined with a number of other features can help to paint you as a man rather than a women with some unfortunate features. There are certainly women who are flat chested who you will immediately recognize as women due to things like the shape of their face like the lack or brow ridge, the way their lips and cheek bones are shaped etc.

This will probably surprise my former roommate since I often referred to people as investments when talking about things like abortion and education, but people are not required to have a function. Moreover people can perform functions outside of producing offspring. I'm sure you feel you have some function besides producing offspring either through your work or your church or your family or your community at large. I will not be able to carry children (in part because no one would let me hold a child because I might drop it) but that doesn't stop me from doing other things that I love like building rocket engines and advancing our knowledge on hydrogen peroxide propulsion systems and teaching people about rockets and science in general. It doesn't stop me from making the people around me happy and teaching some of my northern friends about real food and southern hospitality. It doesn't even stop me from having a family and raising children if I want. Im sure the rest of the people in this thread have similar things they see as their function beyond reproducing except maybe @AnArmyofBun because rabbits and multiplying. 

It should be noted that SRS/GCS will not actually affect things around you or how people see you (except that you might be more comfortable because certain things fit better and you can wear a bathing suit and such). It is something that only you, your doctors, and probably your lover/s will actually see. It is a personal thing and for some people they dont need it for others it is something that they need. I myself experience a strong genital dysphoria. Basically for me there is this massive and ugly lump of tissue hanging off the front of my crotch that shouldn't be there and it is very upsetting and frustrating for me (even if it is sometimes useful like having to use the bathroom in the woods or at a dirty gas station). Unfortunately, the concept of what it means to feel dysphoria is very hard to explain but I suppose the best analogy is like a chronic pain except instead of physical pain it is a mental pain that things aren't right there there is some massive problem with you. Some days it may not be so bad while other days it is terrible like with certain chronic pains. Things like SRS/GCS may not make me more of a woman to society (especially since at that point I should already be one to them) but they will make me feel more comfortable in my body.

In some ways you don't have to understand and I don't expect you to understand quickly. It took me many years to admit what was wrong with me, many years of self-loathing and thinking I was some sick fuck. I'm very excited to finally be taking steps to correct this issue I've been dealing with and we're happy to talk with you and help you to understand. We aren't going to get upset at you for asking questions or not understanding. For most people, this is something that is very hard to relate to because it is quite unusual and outside the scope of what normal people experience. So please feel free to ask questions when you don't understand something.

[CiDisguise 60]

30 minutes ago, Inciatus said:

teaching some of my northern friends about real food and southern hospitality.

Grumbles about how you don't understand the joy of shovelling a driveway while eating buttered lutefisk

[BiggieD61 364]

Inciatus - that was an incredible explanation - someone should just copy and paste that into wikipedia - it's actually better than a wiki deserves.  Thank you for patiently explaining it to me, obviously a person who does not have this physical/emotional/spiritual challenge about who and what they are, can never fully understand what you face or feel.  I see in both you and Bun, a peace with how you feel about yourself and the changes you want to take - to me that is the strongest testimony that you are making the right choice for you. 

I don't claim - nor should any human for that matter - to understand exactly why God chose to create you the way he did.  I am certainly ( and no other person for that matter ) NOT in a position to judge you for how you feel about a most fundamental part of your being.  My question was one of compassion, I was hoping that you and others might feel capable of living your lives without completely reconstructing your "biology".  I am sure that this is both a blessing and a curse, a hard choice and an easy choice - all at the same time.  Thank you for taking the time to enlighten  someone with far less knowledge than yourself on this subject.  Know that in truth I would be happy to cook some good southern food with you any time you liked - good food crosses all barriers!

[Inciatus 1,124]

1 hour ago, BiggieD61 said:

Inciatus - that was an incredible explanation - someone should just copy and paste that into wikipedia - it's actually better than a wiki deserves.  Thank you for patiently explaining it to me, obviously a person who does not have this physical/emotional/spiritual challenge about who and what they are, can never fully understand what you face or feel.  I see in both you and Bun, a peace with how you feel about yourself and the changes you want to take - to me that is the strongest testimony that you are making the right choice for you. 

I don't claim - nor should any human for that matter - to understand exactly why God chose to create you the way he did.  I am certainly ( and no other person for that matter ) NOT in a position to judge you for how you feel about a most fundamental part of your being.  My question was one of compassion, I was hoping that you and others might feel capable of living your lives without completely reconstructing your "biology".  I am sure that this is both a blessing and a curse, a hard choice and an easy choice - all at the same time.  Thank you for taking the time to enlighten  someone with far less knowledge than yourself on this subject.  Know that in truth I would be happy to cook some good southern food with you any time you liked - good food crosses all barriers!

I'm glad my explanation helped and I'm happy to explain anything else you might have questions on.

I can't say I know why either though I might like to joke to myself that I've received so many many wonderful blessings that I needed something to balance it out a bit. 

I don't know you South Carolinans don't seem to know how to barbecue and just use pork everywhere. Where's the beef?  Though in all seriousness I agree. Food is fantastic and I might eat and enjoy it a bit too much. I'm especially happy because I can finally actually cook steak decently and my biscuit recipe got a lot better.

[BiggieD61 364]

1 hour ago, Inciatus said:

I don't know you South Carolinans don't seem to know how to barbecue and just use pork everywhere. Where's the beef?  Though in all seriousness I agree. Food is fantastic and I might eat and enjoy it a bit too much. I'm especially happy because I can finally actually cook steak decently and my biscuit recipe got a lot better.

Don't hate the Pig!

In a sad note for our state, our signature grocery store, the "Piggly Wiggly" has been absorbed by a respectable chain spread across the Carolinas and Georgia - Bi-Lo.  While I am a fan of BBQ Beef ribs, and the Sovereignty of North Kakalakees mustard based BBQ sauce. the Pig is the center piece of southern pit grilled meat!

[Inciatus 1,124]

9 minutes ago, BiggieD61 said:

Don't hate the Pig!

In a sad note for our state, our signature grocery store, the "Piggly Wiggly" has been absorbed by a respectable chain spread across the Carolinas and Georgia - Bi-Lo.  While I am a fan of BBQ Beef ribs, and the Sovereignty of North Kakalakees mustard based BBQ sauce. the Pig is the center piece of southern pit grilled meat!

You may have gathered it somewhere earlier in the thread but Fuzzy doesnt eat pork stuffs. Though if I were a guest and I was served pork stuffs I would eat it (assuming it wasnt terrible) because otherwise that would be rude. 

Beef it's whats for dinner. Also it is the only meat Ill cook unless Im mkaing chicken alfredo.

[CiDisguise 60]

Still no love for the gelatinous lye-soaked cod. Pity.

[Inciatus 1,124]

1 minute ago, CiDisguise said:

Still no love for the gelatinous lye-soaked cod. Pity.

No but I can give some love for the delicious taste of fried catfish.

[BiggieD61 364]

28 minutes ago, CiDisguise said:

Still no love for the gelatinous lye-soaked cod. Pity.

A lovely couple across the street vacations in their native Minnesota every summer and come back to Bluffton every October.

They hate ludefisk.  Passionately.