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Garbad

How would the WotLabs Unica rebalance t10?

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I agree with Kraft, every line has to be unique in some way to make the game interesting. The only problem is tanks such as the 121 or 113 just don't work in the meta because there are other tanks that are so much better than they are at certain roles. 

 

Emphasize the strengths of certain tanks while keeping their strengths in check with the current meta. Keep tanks unique but make their strengths usable in certain situations that won't be outclassed by the current meta. (E-100, IS-7, 57, 50B)

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Drop TD pen like they dropped HT pen a year ago - nothing over 300 for sure, stuff in the 270s- low 290s

T57 gets another 3-4 seconds added to reloading the drum

4 in the Waffle clip (so forcing a bounce means you liiiiiiive!)

Better gun handing or acc for the Foch 155, but not both!

More DPM on MAUS and IS-4

Replace the M48/M60 with something not terrible

an extra degree of depression on the 121

an extra degree of depression and another 10ish mm of armor on the 113. Or just shrink the hull and make it a true hedium. Maybe another 10 pen or 50 alpha on the anemic gun (for a 10 HT)

Real gold round for the FV4202 and keep the HESH

263 frontal fires...less

 

Better tank weighting, especially in BT10 - triple batchat != IS-7/62A/E3. The meta has shifted and having no beef means given equal skills the beef team wins. 

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Buff the cupola on the e5. 

 

But in all honesty it's not the tanks, it's the maps. (Other than the waffle, fuck that tank).

 

Opening up the maps and increasing their size would do a lot for the game. 

 

Crab's recommendations look ok. 

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Nerf medium view range to ~380m, heavies to 370, TDs to 360 (except 380 for open topped TDs) and leave lights as the only tanks in the game with 400+m view range. Rebalance light tanks to have tiering equal to medium and heavy tanks, from 1-10 with the same MM as other vehicles. 

 

Tier 10 lights have ~1600 HP, tier 9 medium level firepower with better camo, gun handling and mobility with ~400-420m view range.

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Nerf medium view range to ~380m, heavies to 370, TDs to 360 (except 380 for open topped TDs) and leave lights as the only tanks in the game with 400+m view range. Rebalance light tanks to have tiering equal to medium and heavy tanks, from 1-10 with the same MM as other vehicles. 

 

Tier 10 lights have ~1600 HP, tier 9 medium level firepower with better camo, gun handling and mobility with ~400-420m view range.

 

Yea, that stuff too. That an addition of a whole class, but it would balance 10s as a side effect...provided they began to consider appropriate MM weights and tank distributions. If a LT weighs in at 120 also...well lol. 

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Waffle: remove the autoloader and 128mm option.  Leave it with the 150mm gun with a reload time that's slightly faster than the JPE100.  Make it so the gun shield is not a hitbox (aka you have to target the hull).

 

T62a and Obj 140, nerf the aim time slightly but keep on-the-move dispersion low.  Obj430, give it a gun with higher alpha than the 140/62a so that it's shitty aim time and accuracy can mean something, but not as much alpha as 121.

 

IS-4: give it more armor on turret roof and engine deck.  Let it's role be sidescraping/absorbing arty damage.

 

113: better track traverse to make more manueverable with slight upgrade in turret armor.

 

183 is about average in most player's hands now with the HESH nerf, but still good in hands of really good players.  Oh well.

 

Batchat: 1 less round in the clip, adjust clip reload to maintain DPM.

 

Leo1: Lower ammo rack chance by 20%.

 

E5: make cupola 15% smaller

 

268: Give it back some traverse lost in previous nerf, but not as good as it was before.

 

Foch155: harden the frontal armor.  Keep the sides weak.  Slight traverse upgrade.  Leave gun as is.

 

M48/M60: give it some of the same love the M46 got recently.

 

121: harden turret armor a bit, perhaps to T62a levels, which trolls the user because with shitty gun depression it's difficult for 99% of population to put it into use.

 

JPE100: Give it a gun that fires APCR instead of HEAT.  Harden the upper casemate a bit more.

 

E4: Give it a very slight reload time buff and very slight accuracy buff.

 

FV4202/215b: see what happens with the replacements and go from there.  Pray that they don't ruin the 215b's amazing gun when they put it on the Chieftain protptype.

 

Maus: give it the JT's 128.


Nerf medium view range to ~380m, heavies to 370, TDs to 360 (except 380 for open topped TDs) and leave lights as the only tanks in the game with 400+m view range. Rebalance light tanks to have tiering equal to medium and heavy tanks, from 1-10 with the same MM as other vehicles. 

 

Tier 10 lights have ~1600 HP, tier 9 medium level firepower with better camo, gun handling and mobility with ~400-420m view range.

Agreed, but with that you'd have to do what you mentioned in platoon chat the other day:  Every map should have a place to brawl AND an open area for vision/spotting, not maps that have only one.

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Soon as I get home I will post on this matter again, but i agree with almost everything crab said except with the replacement of the M48/M6. I Enjoy both of those tanks quite a bit... but i feel they could use a bit of something to keep them on par with other tanks. I really do feel they preform fine even if they aren't OP on the move as they once were. Learning to play tank regardless of its shortcomings will teach you a lot about your play AND about how to excel in less then idea conditions.

 

Just my two cents. 

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Soon as I get home I will post on this matter again, but i agree with almost everything crab said except with the replacement of the M48/M6. I Enjoy both of those tanks quite a bit... but i feel they could use a bit of something to keep them on par with other tanks. I really do feel they preform fine even if they aren't OP on the move as they once were. Learning to play tank regardless of its shortcomings will teach you a lot about your play AND about how to excel in less then idea conditions.

 

Just my two cents. 

 

That was my only non-serious comment. Taking their accuracy values up to about 0.33 and adding 5kph top speed would do the trick for the M48/M60. 

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Speed IMHO is fine the accuracy could see a buff. I like tanks that don't let me get too far ahead and usually these days I can see when trouble is coming to GTFO before the need to have that extra speed needs to be used.

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Going by their previous ratings...

 

Waffle - 3 shot, 45 second reload on 128.  150 keeps current stats, but up intra-clip to 3.5 seconds.

 

62A - As much as I may dislike it, I accept that it's failure on my part.  Tank doesn't need much, if anything.  Bit more horsepower would be nice for hills.

140 - Insufficient experience with this.

Batchat - I feel the bat is in a good place right now.

 

T57 - Add a few seconds to the reload, otherwise fine.

E-100 - No changes.

E3 - No changes.

183 - Purge.  Exorcise this demon from my game.

 

IS-7 - No changes.

STB - No changes.

50M - No changes.

E5 - No changes.

Leo - Small DPM increase.

 

430 - Insufficient experience.

50B - Insufficient experience.

268 - No changes.

Foch - Increase shell velocity.  

E4 - No changes.

 

7201 - Insufficient experience.

 

121 - Insufficient experience.

 

M60/M48 - Restore their crown as undisputed snap shot/mobile shot masters.

113 - No changes.

JPE100 - Buff superstructure.

FV4202/215 - Insufficient experience.

263 - Eliminate mantlet weakness.  Reduce engine fire chance.

IS-4 - No idea.

 

Maus - Give it VK45 levels of armor.  Let it be nigh impenetrable from the front.  Increase DPM.

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You guys are all "balancing" tanks by making them more like each other - that is, you're reducing the uniqueness of the tank.

For example, crab wants to give chinese tanks more depression. That's imo something you shouldn't do as a game designer. The chinese tanks are known for their shit gun depression - it's what makes them unique. If you think this tank isn't strong enough, then buff it's strong point. Could give the guns better dispersion, or more reliable armor - something along those lines.

IMO, you should always nerf something by nerfing its weak points, not by making it more similar to everything else. Similarly, you should buff something by buffing its strong points, not by reinforcing its weak points. All the tanks are already similar enough as it is.

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You guys are all "balancing" tanks by making them more like each other - that is, you're reducing the uniqueness of the tank.

For example, crab wants to give chinese tanks more depression. That's imo something you shouldn't do as a game designer. The chinese tanks are known for their shit gun depression - it's what makes them unique. If you think this tank isn't strong enough, then buff it's strong point. Could give the guns better dispersion, or more reliable armor - something along those lines.

IMO, you should always nerf something by nerfing its weak points, not by making it more similar to everything else. Similarly, you should buff something by buffing its strong points, not by reinforcing its weak points. All the tanks are already similar enough as it is.

 

Those changes still leave the china tanks in their niche...-3 to -4 is still harder to use than -5 or -6, but with the bigger boom. Part of the problem specifically with the chinese tanks is that the RU ones are better in every way that matters. Frontal armor slope isn't that important. Slightly higher alpha isn't that much more useful when the gun is that much harder to use. Its less accurate, slower aiming, blooms more AND has less depression? That's just straight inferior. Something has to give. Their niche is alpha though, and personally I don't see why have a 490 or 560 gun on a medium would be superior to just adjusting depression a little. I'd think it would be a fine experiment, moving the 121 to 490 alpha and the 113 to 560...but I don't think it would be much more balanced that the more soft changes.

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You guys are all "balancing" tanks by making them more like each other - that is, you're reducing the uniqueness of the tank.

For example, crab wants to give chinese tanks more depression. That's imo something you shouldn't do as a game designer. The chinese tanks are known for their shit gun depression - it's what makes them unique. If you think this tank isn't strong enough, then buff it's strong point. Could give the guns better dispersion, or more reliable armor - something along those lines.

IMO, you should always nerf something by nerfing its weak points, not by making it more similar to everything else. Similarly, you should buff something by buffing its strong points, not by reinforcing its weak points. All the tanks are already similar enough as it is.

I agree with this for the most part. But it's kinda difficult to differentiate some tanks due to the overcrowding of tanks with similar characteristics (see the metric fuck ton of T10s with with 390/400 alpha)

There are also some really sketchy/terrible ideas in here as well.

Increase Foch traverse? It's already fast enough to prevent mediums from circling it.

WTF with 3 round 128 or forced to use 150 with terrible handling? Yeah it's dumb now now either of these would make it completely irrelevant.

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I would remove the ability to one shot tier 10s. It is annoying, most often purely luck or RNG based and I think it shouldn't have a place in the end game.

 

Which would mean nerfing HE(SH) maximum rolls to ~1800, and either buffing module health or reducing module damage on high caliber guns to prevent ammo rack explosions on the first hit.

 

I'm not familiar enough with any tier 10 tanks to make any other suggestions I would consider worthwhile.

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Batchat: 1 less round in the clip, adjust clip reload to maintain DPM.

Do you think it is overpowered, or underpowered currently?

Is that a buff or a nerf?

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113 -- Give this tank the WZ111 1-4's 130mm cannon with ~5rpm (roughly the same DPM as it currently has).  Let the 113 be a better 111 and fill a role that doesn't really exist (fast, high health heavy with a big boomstick) as opposed to its current role of a shittier 121 with more hps.  This is sort of the M103 to T110E5 transition, but for China.

 

121 -- Buff AP round pen to 258+.  Possibly buff agility without touching top speed.  Let this thing use a slower, higher alpha round that can better beat sloped surfaces and buff its brawling/city fighting capability a bit.

 

T62A/140 -- APCR pen nerf to 250ish (these tanks should probably have some sort of drawback, but I don't really want to touch all the fun mechanical parts of the tank-- easier to just potentially force a little better aiming which they are more than capable of).

 

T110E5 -- shrink cupola slightly or replace with a version of the E3's bounceonium cupola.  This tank needs a small amount of love in close range engagements.

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I am not going to wander too far into the weeds on this topic as I don't have the time. The one thing I would like to add to this discussion is a general belief that rebalancing should be more focused on nerfing rather than buffing. I am concerned about power creep of tier 10 in comparison to tiers 8 and 9. I think there are some vehicles that clearly need to be buffed to put them on par with other tier 10s but I think the general route to balancing the tier should be nerfs.

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Waffle

- It's in a reasonably good place right now. 

- view range reduction by 25% 

315 base

 

183

- Full HESH mechanics rework, give HESH 6 degree normalization, keep slow round speed, and increase module damage and blast cone.

- reload should be buffed to about 18-19, keep shitty gun handling.

- damage dropped to 900 damage/190 pen for prem HESH, 790hp/270 pen for AP

- Increase ammo count to 18

- reduce viewrange by 25%

 

268

- nerf rof by .5 seconds, increase AP and HEAT damage to 800

 

263 

- pretty good place

view range reduction by 25%

 

Jagzilla

- 200 hp increase

- lower aim-time by 7.5%

- View reduction by 25%

 

Foch 155

buff reverse speed up to 16

reduce intra-clip reload by .5

 

 

TD class wide

View range reduction by 25% 

 

 

Meds

Batchat

- improve hull traverse by 2 degrees,

- lower poor terrain resistance by ~7.5% 

- Increase damage by 60 to 450 (1800 burst from 1950)

- remove one shell from clip, increase max ammo capacity by 6

- Reduce magazine reload by 1.5

- reduce inter-shell by .21 seconds (2.5) 

- small improvement on dispersion from movement and traverse. 

- Lower base view range to 380

 

4202 

- See HESH rebalance

ALready being yanked, so fuck it

 

Fattons 

Reduce viewrange by 7.5% to 388.5

slight turret armor buff

 

430 

- improve hp/t and top speed

- DPM and handling should be buffed to 92.5% of 62a

- limited +2 degree depression from 46-135 degrees, 225-314 degrees, 

- View range nerf 7.5%

 

Leo 1

- Armor profile changed to roughly leo 1a3 specifications, so spaced armor on sides and turret. 

- bring the ammo rack damage to 97% likelihood the current statistical median 

- aim time nerf of 7%

- View range nerf of 7%

 

140

- increase top speed by 2km/h

- decrease rate of fire by 4%

- gun handling nerf to 96% of 62a

- view nerf of 7.5% 

 

All other meds

- nerf view range by 7.5%

 

 

Heavies

 

215b

- improve side armor by near uniform 25%(125)

- Improve lower turret ring by 40%

- stop filling gas tank and engine with JPA

- improve ammo capacity by 6 shells.

- Class wide view-range nerf, 12.5%

 

e5

-View range nerf by 11%

 

Maus

- class-wide view range nerf by 12.5%

- increase rof of 12.5 KwK L55 by 11%

- rear armor reduction by 15% in on a few places.

- front lower glacis weakened by 10%

 

e100

-Class wide view range nerf

- increase rof of 12.5 KwK L55 by 11%

 

T57

- Dispersion values nerfed by 7.5% 

- Accuracy reduced to .36

- reverse speed buffed by 15%

-Class wide view range nerf 12.5

- reduce HP to 2100

 

 

113

-class wide view range nerf

- extra 15mm frontal armor. 

- improve hp/t by 5%

 

All others

12.5% view range nerf.

 

 

Cancer

- fuck cancer

- Hardcap artillery spot checks at 250m, adjust current view range to be relative

- Class-wide buff of RoF by 25%

-Classwide nerf of dispersion by 50%

- Class wide Aim-time of increase (nerf) of 25%

- PremHE Splash matches regular HE, pen improved by 10% to compensate.

- Overall splash reduced by 10%

- Flight time nerf (increase) of 25%

- class-wide damage reduction of 15%

- Batarty gains vents back, improves intra-clip reload by 1 second.

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This is probably one of the best threads I've seen in a while. I'm retarded so I have nothing to add other than remove arty.

well... One thing... Kraft brought up the point of tank uniqueness. Can we make the Russian meds all at least a little different?

Give the T62A the 125. Just BS the fact it's not a smooth bore so that fixes the APFSDS issue and balance it accordingly. Give the 430 more armor, something to make them not just 3 clones of each other.

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Bring back battle tier 12.

 

Regular 8's are being fucked over by MM and its not fun fighting tier 8s in tier 10s every game....

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