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Opinion of the E4 and why it should be Re-Visited

Should E4 be Rebalanced? Or repurposed?  

34 members have voted

  1. 1. Should it be Re-Balanced? Or repurposed?

    • Yes, buffed as TD
    • Yes buffed as Heavy
    • No, it doesnt need it, let the Pinkos take the Gap!!!
    • Do what you really want and swap T57 for E4. Harden E4 and make T57 a TD.
  2. 2. Should it get buffed as TD? As in 15%/9%/4% base camo+ Hatch reinforce a bit.

    • Yeah, this is fine
    • No, make it a Heavy
    • Nope, heres the reason why below.
    • No T57 as 1900 HP/3 round TD would be better
  3. 3. If Heavy... 2350 HP, Cheeks+Hatch upgrade reasonable?

    • Yeah I agree
    • Nope I will tell you why down here.
    • Yes, but make it as soft as now with old T30 gun handling+DMG


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Thanks everyone for participating. Remember I dont think the E4 is ultra weak, just that it needs a true home in what it is and needs some buffs to bring it to that point, these wouldnt change it much from a enemy tanks perspective but from a drivers that extra 350 HP would be huge, no more losing 50% of health from 1 arty splash etc. Survivability on a soft tank with no camo means HP...

 

So IMO the E4 is a tank that was nerfed into the ground as was the M48. Seems like when US tanks are blatantly OP they get dealt with harshly as Im sure the T57 will be.

 

IMO it also needs to be revisited badly as this tank doesnt know what it is and suffers from its "Class" but gains nothing from it.

 

When it came out it was an absolute terror and really there was little reason not to use it.

 

It has 850 Alpha back when only 1 Heavy had near that and only a few TD`s did. No 183 or jpz. It also had a turret that was much harder than now with a Reload closer to 15 secs when all said and done.

It was OP as hell, more DPM than any heavy with almost 2x alpha+Pen of a TD and turret, and armor. But after nerf it was ruined and power creeped even more.

 

Because its a "Td" it gets 300-400 less HP than if it was a heavy, it gets much softer armor and just as bad gun handling.

 

It would compete with IS4+Is7 on light end and E100 on heavier end, all with DPM more in the same area with all 3 better armor. E100 has same alpha but better DPM nght and day armor and 650 more HP.

IS7 has much better speed and armor and vs arty or flanking meds is night and day better. And all for a whopping 100 DPM.

 

Then vs TD`s its massively UP in DPM with 2250ish vs similiar with a 3 clip magazine of a Foch. yes it has a turret but its soft as hell and has no Camo...Or 3.5% while moving which is LOL.

 

Look at 268 which is now med of the road. 268 is faster has double the camo and more while firing, it has 400ish DPM more with 4.5 sec reload diff, more Pen much better accuracy and really its armor is as good easily.

 

So, IM othe main reason it was ok was the Meta of the game favoring Camping etc where it was much worse than a E3 or 268 or Foch. Now Meta is becoming Brawl and its second rate with this to a solid Heavy or even a med.

 

They need to either make it a TD and give it same Camo as a 268 [they are same size INRL well E4 was E5 inspired so yeah] and then it still has shitty armor, gun handling and DPM fo its turret, or it needs its HP and Armor buffed, id say 2350 HP with Turret cheeks from 250 to 270 vs AP and 50/50 vs heat`s 330mm at wekspot. Also tumor goes to just below a E3.

 

Ether way is balanced IMO. Even with OP turret part, it still would have a E5`s Upper/lower. So for a super heavy it would be Meh Armor and Meh HP for a big gun that pens well. And for a TD it would have bad DPM, ad gun stats and either way its bad track resist hurts it.

 

 

What do you guys think? E4 is such a fun concept and its ok in Pubs but only because 750 alpha is easy to use/abuse. But in reality how much better than a T30 is it?

 

IMO my ultimate would be making E4 a true heavy and T57 a TD. I think T57 could play better and be more balanced as a 1900 HP tank and gets slowed turret traverse and loss of a shell for some other things.

 

So the other route would be making the E4 like the old T30 where it was soft as hell but had great gun handling etc...So maybe 2250 HP 2.5 Sec Aim+ .35 accuracy and increase depression to -8.

 

TL;DR

E4 needs to be updated and in my perfect world it goes....

 

T57 moves to 2nd unarmored TD, and goes to 1900 HP making it perfectly balanced if it loses 1 shell but retains DPM. It fits much better anyways.

 

E4 moves to 2nd heavy and either becomes true super heavy with 2400ish HP and Turret reinforcement including cheeks and hatch or

E4 becomes old T30 style with shit in class Armor but 2.5 Aimtime .35 accuracy and-8 [+2 depression buff] Also a bit of dispersion etc.

 

This gives guys a choice and moves tanks to where they should be. if 57/58 was made it would not have been Hvy but a TD.

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I feel uncomfortable with nerfing T57 hps and clip and making it TD. It nicely evolves from its line of clip tanks. And there are enough tier X TDs with clip. I don't think E4 is weak at all and nerfing it was necessary. Armor is still very good - best armored Tier X TD. Hardening it would make it another VK 45.02B, which is wrong. I agree that E4 fits a bit more in role of a heavy than TD, but change is not needed imo. Btw you can't compare DPM vs 3 clip magazine. Foch has another issues and clip is one of its few strong points. E4 has better DPM than Foch in the end. 2310 (without rammer) vs 2250. And you poll is biased to support your arguments.

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I feel uncomfortable with nerfing T57 hps and clip and making it TD. It nicely evolves from its line of clip tanks. And there are enough tier X TDs with clip. I don't think E4 is weak at all and nerfing it was necessary. Armor is still very good - best armored Tier X TD. Hardening it would make it another VK 45.02B, which is wrong. I agree that E4 fits a bit more in role of a heavy than TD, but change is not needed imo. Btw you can't compare DPM vs 3 clip magazine. Foch has another issues and clip is one of its few strong points. E4 has better DPM than Foch in the end. 2310 (without rammer) vs 2250. And you poll is biased to support your arguments.

T57 with 3 rounds wouldnt be a huge nerf but more of a shift in how it works. # rounds but same DPM would just be a different style. Also hell its gonna get nerf batted hard. I rather it handle the way it does and have 3 rounds than get aimtime+huge dispersion nerf and keep 4. Making it a TD would basiclaly just mean it lost HP wehich would be OK IMO. Problem with 57 is it is to survivable for what it can do, its def would be alot more balanced with 1900 HP.

 

Also E4 nerf was needed im not saying it is, im saying it lost its very strong heavy characteristics. Lost OP DPM and lost tons of armor and this changed what the tank was, it went from OP Heavy to a soft fat low HP heavy that is basically all gun, that is ok but it needs to get a HP buff now, esp since it was made when there was only a few TD options.  Think how much more OP the E3 is than the E4, no one would really question the E3 is much more of a farce to be reckoned with.

 

If it lacks Camo why it a td? It certainly doesnt have E3 or T95 or Jpze100 armor. And it certainly has the lowest DPM of all TD`s that dont have clips. Your biased by trying to compare the Foch which fires 3 155mm shells in 15 secs before the E4 can even reload 1 time. The Foch has massive Camo, speed, 3x the alpha and yet has 100 DPM less? Lol is the turret really worth no Camo, light armor, shit gun handling, meh accuracy and meh speed? Nope. Its worth about half that.

 

How are my questions Biased? The first no is a joke and 2nd and 3rd I tell you to explain if you disagree.

 

"Armor is still very good - best armored Tier X TD"

 

Here your trolling right? Or your smoking crack.

E3 has massively better Armor isnt even comparable TBH

Foch still has better Armor from the front and both are trash from the sides to who cares.

268 TBH has 40% of its front that basically autobounce. And once more better camo=better defense.

Jpze100 once more is night and day better.

 

Infact it has 2nd in class worse armor. Waffle doesnt count and 183 might be worse.

 

Also what do you mean another 4502? It wouldnt even be lcose...

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E4 has turret. Another turreted TD is WT, which has crappy armor. I agree that turret is not everything. Foch is garbage from sides and has notable weakspots from the front (while E4 is better). JGPE is better armored, but that is the only thing it has. E3 is better in terms of armor and dpm, but still without turret and much slower.

 

If you compare DPM then the Foch is worse. If we talk about potential burst damage then Foch is better, yes. Either accept that DPM is better for E4 or don't use it.

E4 has better depression, aim time, overall armor, premium round, DPM

Foch has better speed, camo and clip

 

Not sure about bloom and such.

 

E4 has armor instead of camouflage and can work around hills better.

 

As for your poll.

Q1 - 3 of 4 support your suggestions, 1 not with explanation

Q2 - 2 in favor of your arguments, 1 against, 1 is touching my precious T57 (you don't touch my T57 :P )

Q3 - ok

 

Ok 1st question is a bit biased, others are fine.

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If you want a T57-like TD then T58 is just fine. Put the autoloader to 3 rounds like the Foch instead of historical 6 and it won't be as game-ruining as the Waffle. Give it a long-ish inter-clip (3.5 seconds) and 3 second aim time. Buff the Foch 155 sides by 4mm to compensate (admit it, current Foch is pretty bad due to overmatch mechanics) and give it better inter-clip (4 seconds, the awful gun handling makes sense since it's a casemate and can't be stabilized as much as a turret). Also remove the rangefinder wings weakspots and make them only optics that get damaged.

 

Then the choice there would be a turret versus effective frontal armour and mobility.

 

E4 on the other hand could sure use more camo and slightly sturdier (20-25mm more) cheeks/hatch... other than that it doesn't need THAT much...

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LOL t57 is no TD but T58  with 155mm autoloaders gun would be good !

 

 

 

t57d.jpg

 

Also E4 need a little buff or turret armor to be fully competitive

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E4 is fine as it is. Probably one of my favourite solopub tanks tbh.

I just feel like it could use a turret armor buff to 250 on the cheeks and possibly a gun handling buff 

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I think it is a bit of an awkward tank and I have my own doubts but there are just as many good players claiming it's a very capable tank as there are those who says it's meaningless. I do feel it could use a small buff but then again m48 patton buffs pls.

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E4 is fine as is.  If it had the armor of a Heavy it would be OP as hell and the only other Heavy that can hit as hard as the E4 is the E100, and it has the shit pen to go with it.  I will however be fine with an armor buff if the E4 loses some pen along the way :)

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E4 has turret. Another turreted TD is WT, which has crappy armor. I agree that turret is not everything. Foch is garbage from sides and has notable weakspots from the front (while E4 is better). JGPE is better armored, but that is the only thing it has. E3 is better in terms of armor and dpm, but still without turret and much slower.

 

If you compare DPM then the Foch is worse. If we talk about potential burst damage then Foch is better, yes. Either accept that DPM is better for E4 or don't use it.

E4 has better depression, aim time, overall armor, premium round, DPM

Foch has better speed, camo and clip

 

Not sure about bloom and such.

 

E4 has armor instead of camouflage and can work around hills better.

 

As for your poll.

Q1 - 3 of 4 support your suggestions, 1 not with explanation

Q2 - 2 in favor of your arguments, 1 against, 1 is touching my precious T57 (you don't touch my T57 :P )

Q3 - ok

 

Ok 1st question is a bit biased, others are fine.

Lol so T57 is balanced but E4 isnt? :)

 

Also Im not saying add Camo levels of a ROmba, im saying give it same or similar levels as a 268 or a Foch.

 

268 gets massively better Gun Accuracy and Pen and DPM for its lack of turret, it also has solid armor. E4 for how slow and how much non-camo it has DOES NOT HAVE GOOD ARMOR.

 

It is rolling around with camo of a heavy and much softer turret than a E5, also has much less DPM than E5 much less HP and speed. Sorry but you can`t have it both ways, its either a Heavy or a TD. If its a Armored TD then things like Jag and E3 make it look soft as butter, and if its a Heavy it needs more HP.

E4 is fine as is.  If it had the armor of a Heavy it would be OP as hell and the only other Heavy that can hit as hard as the E4 is the E100, and it has the shit pen to go with it.  I will however be fine with an armor buff if the E4 loses some pen along the way :)

E100`s Pen isnt shit, everyone who knows how to play it uses its gold.

 

When I say Armor of a Heavy I mean it needs to be inline with a E5, right now its turret is butter and needs 20-30mm more on cheeks as well as hatch redo.

 

Why should the E4 lose Pen? It has low DPM, bad armor and horrible gun handling. Also its not fast at all, its just not super slow.

 

Bringing the E4 inline with a E5`s turret still forces you to hide your entire lower plate and your tumor while 50% stronger would still be a weakspot.

I think it is a bit of an awkward tank and I have my own doubts but there are just as many good players claiming it's a very capable tank as there are those who says it's meaningless. I do feel it could use a small buff but then again m48 patton buffs pls.

It is capable in pubs, but then so is the T30, T34 Jagpz100 and other middling tanks, so is the M48.

 

E4 needs to have its role clearly defined, the reason it wasnt in beginning was so it could be balanced. They nerfed it hard but never gave it a "Role" other than opportunist TD, in which it needs x2 camo as what it has...My god it has camo of a huge heavy, WTF does it not then get HP of a heavy? And turret upgrade?

 

These changes I propose wouldnt make it OP, they would bring it inline so that the E4 could take 1 more shot from a 62a....While that seems small, what it really means is arty survival. And its camo means sitting still on a ridge it no longer is spotted at 400m as something drives by.

 

It literally has ONLY ITS TURRET to make it stand out and guess what? If it was a heavy that would be no big deal.

LOL t57 is no TD but T58  with 155mm autoloaders gun would be good !

 

 

 

t57d.jpg

 

Also E4 need a little buff or turret armor to be fully competitive

T57 was made as a concept after the T58 and both were TD`s in our definition. Where as the US Army`s M103 was the true heavy.

If you want a T57-like TD then T58 is just fine. Put the autoloader to 3 rounds like the Foch instead of historical 6 and it won't be as game-ruining as the Waffle. Give it a long-ish inter-clip (3.5 seconds) and 3 second aim time. Buff the Foch 155 sides by 4mm to compensate (admit it, current Foch is pretty bad due to overmatch mechanics) and give it better inter-clip (4 seconds, the awful gun handling makes sense since it's a casemate and can't be stabilized as much as a turret). Also remove the rangefinder wings weakspots and make them only optics that get damaged.

 

Then the choice there would be a turret versus effective frontal armour and mobility.

 

E4 on the other hand could sure use more camo and slightly sturdier (20-25mm more) cheeks/hatch... other than that it doesn't need THAT much...

They are gonna ruin our T57 anyways guys, why not make it actually useful. 3 round`s @ 1200 DMG would make whinersstop crying but still make it OP for us good players.

 

E4 is fine in pubs but when facing anyone as good as me there is no way I can beat a E100 say. I need more HP more cheek armor and better hatch. Not to make it OP but to make it 65% bounce proof vs T10 meds.

 

Tanks should need to hit my lower, or 1/3 on my hatch [and trade dmg doing it] or flank me. they shouldnt be able to pick apart my tumor over and over or my cheeks over and over.

 

My argument is not that the E4 is massively UP but that it has no clear role...Is it a TD? Then give it more TD bonuses as it already pays in 350 HP and super bad gunhandling for this so it deserves Camo at least while sitting still. Is it a heavy? If so it needs HP as it already has softest armor in class..Hell the E4 has T9 heavy style armor, yes it has some tough spots but as a whole has tons of fluff and is basically autopoenned with heat from the front of turret or lower plate and hatch is OMG easy.

 

Pubstar tanks should not be how the E4 is judged alone. It needs to be at least viable in CW or theoretically so, and in reality it isnt, not enough camo to stay hidden at all, and not nearly hard enough to fight E100`s or T57`s and live or even live long.

 

BTW, the T58 had 5 rounds in it and the 57 had 6. Alo WG always said no T58 as the current T57 is looked at as to OP imagine the T58

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E100`s Pen isnt shit, everyone who knows how to play it uses its gold.

If you have to use gold, it means its pen is shit. Balancing tank around gold round is stupid. Using your logic E4 has 375 pen vs E100 334, so it is much better. E4 may need a slight buff, but not in the armor department imo.

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I play the E3, E4 and E5.  Those are my tier 10s. 

The E4 is the tank I am most comfortable with even if it is a heavy-TD hybrid that kind of fails at both.  

Its not really the armor that makes it fail as a heavy, it the hit points.  I think 2350 is a great idea.  

TDs get a camo bonus, but having no base camo makes it rather pointless...and the gun will troll the crap out of you at range anyways.  If not a 350 hit point increase, I'd rather see a accuracy increase.

But...clearly this is a rather noobish opinion, I am quite new to tier X and frankly not that good at it.  :smug: 

 

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T110E4 is fine. You perceive it as weak because we come out of a period where most tier X TDs were overpowered as shit.

 

You have strong alpha, excellent AP pen, a ridiculous APCR round, a turret and some armour. Any additional buffs and the tank would turn from balanced to op again.

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If you have to use gold, it means its pen is shit. Balancing tank around gold round is stupid. Using your logic E4 has 375 pen vs E100 334, so it is much better. E4 may need a slight buff, but not in the armor department imo.

All the E4 has is a gun, and a shit handling one at that. So when the E100 starts sprouting230mm turret cheeks or a 254mm mantlet then we can review its Pen, Oh yeah it needs to be 1 shottable by arty, have 700 hp less...Thats right one entire 18 sec reload less of Health.

not viable in CW? I was just playing it in the invitational tournament against vilin last saturday.

Tourney isnt CW number one. And number 2 you use the E4 in CW? Im sorry but most clans IMO would view that as not optimal to say the least. But im sure your very good and that means breaking all kinds of rules.

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T110E4 is fine. You perceive it as weak because we come out of a period where most tier X TDs were overpowered as shit.

 

You have strong alpha, excellent AP pen, a ridiculous APCR round, a turret and some armour. Any additional buffs and the tank would turn from balanced to op again.

I dont think its weak, I think its out of place and shares the bad qualities of both TD`s and Heavies and not many good ones out side of Pen+Alpha. Its gun handling is atrocious and you cant even add a Vert Stab to it.

It has 300 to 700 less HP than a 70 ton heavy, much less DPM than a TD and butter armor.

 

Is it workable? Yes absolutely. Is it where it should be? Absolutely not. 254mm mantlet, 230mm-270mm cheeks, 180-215mm hatch thats 2 ft tall and the toughest part of armor is the E5`s hull which is its weakest? Come on.

 

AQll it is, is a massive gun with rus med depression and shit handling. That is ok in Pubs many times because they are shit. But vs anyone skilled in amost any tank it can be suppressed or picked apart with ease.

I play the E3, E4 and E5.  Those are my tier 10s. 

The E4 is the tank I am most comfortable with even if it is a heavy-TD hybrid that kind of fails at both.  

Its not really the armor that makes it fail as a heavy, it the hit points.  I think 2350 is a great idea.  

TDs get a camo bonus, but having no base camo makes it rather pointless...and the gun will troll the crap out of you at range anyways.  If not a 350 hit point increase, I'd rather see a accuracy increase.

But...clearly this is a rather noobish opinion, I am quite new to tier X and frankly not that good at it.  :smug: 

 

I agree HP is the real issue. And mostly its from Arty IMO. Since the E3 forces players to use its frontal armor because gun it means getting caught in open much less sideways.

 

2350 HP IMO would make it kinda like a Tort where its armor is meh, but it has some meat on its bones to take a few hits. 2k is just not enough, it is like 1 solid arty hit+ 3 med shots or 6 med hits. And sinceits forced to brawl it needs this, also since its backup speed is horrible and it doesnt have 4 shots to keep enemies heads down it also is bad.

 

So make it have 15 kmh backup speed and that alone would help peek a boom.

Thanks for all your input both for and against guys.

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What do you want a tank to have? Seriously though, the E4 is literally an E5 with a 155mm gun. They both have the same hatch weakness, the turret cheeks are ~240mm effective (so anything that can pen them will pen your hull anyways) and have similar mobility. If you made the E4 a heavy, it would need to lose the 155mm gun entirely. 

 

Also, the T57 doesn't need that type of nerf. It might unload a clip a bit too fast, but losing a shell wouldn't really change much unless they crippled the DPM. The T57 is already nearly a single or two shot gun anyways.

 

Long story short, you are barking up the wrong tree. E4 is fine, T57 is (mostly) fine, and none of the changes you suggested would help with game balance. I can't even believe you want yet another autoloader TD in the game.

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I was actually initially typing about the merits of the E4 and its unique utility in CW, but then I realized...

If you're going to argue that the Invitational is so different from CW, then there's really no point discussing this any further.

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What do you want a tank to have? Seriously though, the E4 is literally an E5 with a 155mm gun. They both have the same hatch weakness, the turret cheeks are ~240mm effective (so anything that can pen them will pen your hull anyways) and have similar mobility. If you made the E4 a heavy, it would need to lose the 155mm gun entirely. 

 

Also, the T57 doesn't need that type of nerf. It might unload a clip a bit too fast, but losing a shell wouldn't really change much unless they crippled the DPM. The T57 is already nearly a single or two shot gun anyways.

 

Long story short, you are barking up the wrong tree. E4 is fine, T57 is (mostly) fine, and none of the changes you suggested would help with game balance. I can't even believe you want yet another autoloader TD in the game.

The E4 and E5 are vastly different. True the Turret Hatch is both weak but the Turret on the E5 is nigh and day better.

 

I dont want yet another autloader TD I want the T57 not to be nerfed into oblivion which its gonna be, so if they just made it a TD according to the E4 style it would lose 2-300 hp and be fine the way it is. My point is that some guys are getting hung up on the names but in reality th E4 is a soft low Hp hvy and the 50b and 57 are more like td`s.

 

But to say the E5 and E4 are the same with a diff gun is wrong. E5`s turret is much much harder, E5 has -8 which is massive, it also has amazing handling and is much faster.

If it was so similir they would offer 155mm over 120mm option...Then it would be one of most OP tanks in game.

 

I want E4 to get some HP, that is fair for the rest of its deficits.

I was actually initially typing about the merits of the E4 and its unique utility in CW, but then I realized...

If you're going to argue that the Invitational is so different from CW, then there's really no point discussing this any further.

Please go on. I think the Meta is Diff between those but tell me why the E4 is viable I really want to know. I have been wrong beofre.

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Si its confirmed that T57 will get huge bloom hit and 25% worse OTM accuracy. The OTM will basically make vert stab now a wash but adding more nerfage means its gonna be hurting IMO. Also I dont think they will stop there, since that isnt the issue with most Newbs and the 57 anyways. I think newbs hate it because it can roll out 1600 DMG before they reload.

 

I really do think a 3 round mag would make most pubbies hush but to good players wouldnt change much and infact keeping same DPM might be better a 17 sec reload etc with 1200 DMG :)


52589412.jpg

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If you're going to argue that the Invitational is so different from CW, then there's really no point discussing this any further.

Please go on. I think the Meta is Diff between those but tell me why the E4 is viable I really want to know. I have been wrong beofre.

 

What meta is there between the two? One is 14 vs. 14, and the other is 15 vs. 15. Please tell me how the absence of ONE tank on either side changes the "meta". 

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