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Guardian54

Tier 9 Balance Analysis by a Barely-Blue

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Put it this way: you are the tank crew. Your skills matter. They should matter. If a tank crew can avoid fire and return fire accurately then they deserve the win. You call that "twitch". I think we are calling it skill.

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I dont get all the T54 hate. Its 100% balanced with AP. Only HEAT shits on the balance. But its not the only tank in this situation, but it gets all the hate. Why?

Hurk. This game is fine as it is in terms of realism. Your kind (realism fetishishists are very rare in wot, thus statistically irrelevat (in WGs eyes for example). Slower=\=tactical , realistic=\=fun , mildly faster=\=twitch. Also, every real-time game has an element of twitch. Even simulators (even more so). Look at ARMA, loot at RTS game like C&C. In video games its all about the twitch. WoT is one of the most twitch-less games on the market IMO (that isnt turn based).

The T-54 isn't balanced period. I mean, seriously; it's one of the more agile mediums, AND it's got a strong gun AND it's armored like a heavy tank.

Let's put it this way; it can take on an M103 head to head, and it's probably more likely to bounce the M103's shot than the other way around.

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The T-54 has 205mm frontal armor against AP. Half the shots it bounces are from 175 pen tier 7 and 8s, where the 217 APCR on the Russian 122s and 250 HEAT on the chinese guns is JUST too low to reliably penetrate. The turret front is about 220-240mm, with areas of only 205mm near the gun.

 

The M103 has a weaker LFP, but a stronger UFP and a similar turret. The only way to reliably pen an M103s turret is to hit the roof, hatch or get a cheek shot when it is turned. Dead on it bounces a lot of fairly high pen guns.

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The T-54 has 205mm frontal armor against AP. Half the shots it bounces are from 175 pen tier 7 and 8s, where the 217 APCR on the Russian 122s and 250 HEAT on the chinese guns is JUST too low to reliably penetrate. The turret front is about 220-240mm, with areas of only 205mm near the gun.

The M103 has a weaker LFP, but a stronger UFP and a similar turret. The only way to reliably pen an M103s turret is to hit the roof, hatch or get a cheek shot when it is turned. Dead on it bounces a lot of fairly high pen guns.

I guess another way to look at that is to say that the M103 has weaker armor everywhere on the front except the UFP. Granted, the T-54 is hardly immune to an M103 even from the front, it just seems like an M103 driver facing a T-54 has to aim much more carefully than the T-54 driver does.

That's just an impression, and I don't have a T-54 to test it out myself, so perhaps my impression is off. One day I'll get around to moving up the Russian medium line and find out for sure. It just certainly seem like the T-54 has no real weaknesses to it.

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Even with 330 HEAT, you need to make sure you don't hit the Beak or the mantlet. The edges of the cheeks will also bounce. Basically, you need to shoot the LFP all the time, and UFP with HEAT only. The M103 can pen everywhere except the edges of the turret front with AP - autoaim would do it.

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Even with 330 HEAT, you need to make sure you don't hit the Beak or the mantlet. The edges of the cheeks will also bounce. Basically, you need to shoot the LFP all the time, and UFP with HEAT only. The M103 can pen everywhere except the edges of the turret front with AP - autoaim would do it.

Hmmmmm. Perhaps my perception of the M103's armor is skewed. I feel like I bounce fewer shots off my armor in that thing than I do any other heavy in the game. I often have problems penning an M103's turret that I'm shooting at from the front, but it seems like people pen mine from the front.

That said, it's just an impression, and perhaps the tricks for penning an M103's turret are just more widely known than I thought, and I just haven't gotten that good at it myself.

Mine sure does feel glass cannon-y most of the time though. :(

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Posted this over in Garbad's rating thread also.  Interesting to see how the lists compare.

 

Top of the class and bottom of the class are pretty consistent with each other.  A lot of tanks Garbad has rated higher are tanks with larger skill ceilings, while the tanks  Guardian has higher have higher skill floors (T95, tortoise).

 

        Garbad   Guardian
Heavies

E75        1        2
ST-I       2        1
4502B      3        6*
50 120     4        8
111 1-4    5        3
M103       6        4
Conq       7        5
IS-8       8        7

*Pre-Buff  

 

Mediums

T-54       1         2

T54E1      2         3

E50        3         6

430-2      4         1

WZ-120     5         8

M46*       6         5

Type 61    7         4

Cent-7     8         7

Leo PTA    9         9

Lorraine  10        10

 

TDs

Obj 704    1         2

Waffle-4   2         4

T95        3         1

T30        4         5

JT         5         6

Tort       6         3

Foch       7         7

122-54     8         8

 

EDIT: Incredible formatting fail.  Note to self: do not try to import tables from excel.

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Posted this over in Garbad's rating thread also. Interesting to see how the lists compare.

Top of the class and bottom of the class are pretty consistent with each other. A lot of tanks Garbad has rated higher are tanks with larger skill ceilings, while the tanks Guardian has higher have higher skill floors (T95, tortoise).

Garbad Guardian

Heavies: E75 1 2 ST-I 2 1 4502 B 3 6* 50 120 4 8 111 1-4 5 3 M103 6 4 Conq 7 5 IS-8 8 7 *Pre buff Mediums: T-54 1 2 54E1 2 3 E50 3 5 430-2 4 1 WZ120 5 7 M46* 6 4** Cent 7 7 6 Leo Prot 8 8 Lorry 9 9 Type 61 * 4* * Garbad did not rate ** M46 is prebuff rating TDs 704 1 2 Waffle-4 2 4 T95 3 1 T30 4 5 JT 5 6 Tort 6 3 Foch 7 7 122-54

8 8

Formatting fail FTW!

Uh...well formatting fail when viewed on an iPhone, anyway. ;)

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Top of the class and bottom of the class are pretty consistent with each other.  A lot of tanks Garbad has rated higher are tanks with larger skill ceilings, while the tanks  Guardian has higher have higher skill floors (T95, tortoise).

 

Many tanks with bad skill scaling still work well at the 1500-2000 WN8 level that the Noobmeter method is sampling, but they don't tend to be popular because few players want to play a horribly slow bullet magnet.

 

Regardless of whether these tanks are technically overpowered, there's little point in nerfing a tank that people don't want to play. WG figured that one out at least.

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Posted this over in Garbad's rating thread also.  Interesting to see how the lists compare.

 

Top of the class and bottom of the class are pretty consistent with each other.  A lot of tanks Garbad has rated higher are tanks with larger skill ceilings, while the tanks  Guardian has higher have higher skill floors (T95, tortoise).

 

 

 

  Garbad Guardian
Heavies:
    E75 1 2 ST-I  2 1 4502 B 3               6* 50 120  4 8 111 1-4   5 3 M103  6 4 Conq  7 5 IS-8  8 7 *Pre buff           Mediums:     T-54 1 2 54E1  2 3 E50 3 5 430-2 4 1 WZ120 5 7 M46*                6             4** Cent 7 7 6 Leo Prot 8 8 Lorry 9 9 Type 61                 *               4* * Garbad did not rate     ** M46 is prebuff rating           TDs     704 1 2 Waffle-4 2 4 T95 3 1 T30  4 5 JT 5 6 Tort 6 3 Foch 7 7 122-54
 
8 8

 

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Oh, my god.

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I DID NOT LIST THE TANKS IN ORDER OF GOODNESS, ONLY THE ORDER THEY APPEAR ON NOOBMETER... in other words, by recent win rates.

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The thing with skill ceilings and floors is that, as that whiner a few pages back was complaining about, I'm referencing "only the top bunch of players" because most vehicles average out to over 50% recent player win rate, whereas Garbad references unicums only. As a result, I actually have a better view of pubbie competence than Garbad.

.

Take ST-I versus E-75 for example, E-75 has that huge LFP everyone knows to shoot, whereas ST-I's weakspots are smaller, so in a lolderprush (even in this, pubbies are only semi-reliable, they can push you off bridges or drive into lakes unexpectedly) the ST-I will bounce more than E-75, and my calculated w/r differences display that fact.

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.

Oh, my god.

.

I DID NOT LIST THE TANKS IN ORDER OF GOODNESS, ONLY THE ORDER THEY APPEAR ON NOOBMETER... in other words, by recent win rates.

.

The thing with skill ceilings and floors is that, as that whiner a few pages back was complaining about, I'm referencing "only the top bunch of players" because most vehicles average out to over 50% recent player win rate, whereas Garbad references unicums only. As a result, I actually have a better view of pubbie competence than Garbad.

.

Take ST-I versus E-75 for example, E-75 has that huge LFP everyone knows to shoot, whereas ST-I's weakspots are smaller, so in a lolderprush (even in this, pubbies are only semi-reliable, they can push you off bridges or drive into lakes unexpectedly) the ST-I will bounce more than E-75, and my calculated w/r differences display that fact.

E75 LFP is not particularly weak, really.

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E75 LFP is not particularly weak, really.

.

My AMX 50 120 with the 120mm bounces off it enough for me to know that, but relatively speaking it is a weakspot, particularly for pubbies that poke around corners minimally angled, ST-I's LFP is much slimmer.

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The ST-I's LFP is a lot weaker however. Also, at close range the UFP loses enough effective armor to be vulnerable to fairly low pen guns. An E-75 can pen it using -6 or more depression.

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Wow, that was an epic formatting fail.  I had it in excel, copied it in via the "paste from word" option.  It created a table that looked good before I hit submit.

 

I know what you did, Guardian - I just thought it would be interesting to see how Garbad's opinion of tanks ranked compared to how the win rate differential matched up.

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Wow, that was an epic formatting fail.  I had it in excel, copied it in via the "paste from word" option.  It created a table that looked good before I hit submit.

 

I know what you did, Guardian - I just thought it would be interesting to see how Garbad's opinion of tanks ranked compared to how the win rate differential matched up.

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Okay, I'm glad you did it in the way that I thought you did (which was completely reasonable). I just wanted to make sure no one else misunderstood.

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Thank you for your input!

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sadly, this site eats table data and doesnt post it. 

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1. Buff underperformers

2. Other tanks begin to underperform

3. Buff new underperformers

4. Tier 8s seem useless compared to 9s, and who bothers buying a Tier 10 when the 9 is as good if not better?

5. Buff Tier 8s and 10s

6. Tier 7-8 gap grows

7. Buff more...

8. Etc.

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To balance a game you cannot just buff, that is called power creep.

 

Yeah? WG track-record shows usually small buff and mega stomp nerfs

 

overall tanks have becomes weaker and weaker, not stronger and stronger, E75 was long, long ago, before gold ammo and normalisation considered ``well balanced`` compared to E50 / 704 / T54 / IS4, and now? go look in Garbad hes ranking, IS4 > St-1, and E75 and ST-1 are both a 10, 704 and T54 a 9 and E50 a 8 (and he massively underrates it)

 

tanks which where ages ago considered well balanced are now heavy over-performers

 

WG added tons of shit tanks, and they should NOT buff those tanks which where fine in the first place, they should buff all those tomato-crap tanks....

 

ps: on tier 10 its different, here all the over-performers need to get nerf-stomped

 

ps ps: for a healtyh game its the best of tier 9 and 10 are only a small gap in strength, like

70-80-90-95, so the gap between 9 and 10 is the smaller gap of the high tiers, this reduces the influences bads have on the game as top tier, reduces the change of lol-stomp by unicum platoons and will stop many bads from buying / playing tier 10, improving the game.

 

When tier 9 was defacto top tier and tier 10 was bonus, balance was better... (aka tier 10 heavys are the dominating class, i know many ownt hear this (lalala fingers in my ears i wont hear) but this is the truth and the reality and this game will never be balanced on tier 10 till this order is restored, no dominating heavys = fail balance....

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sadly, this site eats table data and doesnt post it. 

Lesson learned.  I reformatted it in plain text, but it's just nawt as purdy.

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Tier 9s I'm grinding right now:

 

Leo Proto A, Lorraine 40t, AMX Foch, Conquerer.........My recent stats looks like a tomato.
 

To be fair, I quite enjoyed the Leo Proto and Lorraine because I like fast tanks; they are hard but fun to play and requires extensive knowledge of maps, vision mechanics, firing lanes, etc.

 

The conquere and Foch,,,,...bah. Almost feels like I'm playing arty, all I do is sit in the back and click at people.

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i hated the lorraine due to its non-existent armor. also the gun wasnt really an upgrade over the 13-90. the extra long reload is painful. 

i dont understand how that tank can be in the line. 

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i hated the lorraine due to its non-existent armor. also the gun wasnt really an upgrade over the 13-90. the extra long reload is painful. 

i dont understand how that tank can be in the line. 

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Due to unwillingness to add the AMX 13 105, obviously. Why else?

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I have one at present, and have to say it's not as bad as I had heard when played as an opportunist and when you get teams that have more IQ than the average rock.

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realistic = fun! otherwise you wouldnt be playing this game!

Idgaf about realism. I don't care about tanks. It's mildly interesting to see a tank and recognize it from the game, that's it. Idgaf about graphics per se either. I'm here because of gameplay and only stayed because of gameplay.

There are plenty of players that play because they like real tanks, but recognize that isn't enough population to sustain the game and even they will not stay (or play much) if the game sucks. Gameplay > Realism. I came from WWIIonline which tries very hard to be realistic; gameplay was not very fun.

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Idgaf about realism. I don't care about tanks. It's mildly interesting to see a tank and recognize it from the game, that's it. Idgaf about graphics per se either. I'm here because of gameplay and only stayed because of gameplay.

There are plenty of players that play because they like real tanks, but recognize that isn't enough population to sustain the game and even they will not stay (or play much) if the game sucks. Gameplay > Realism. I came from WWIIonline which tries very hard to be realistic; gameplay was not very fun.

 

on NA perhaps, but EU and certainly RU tanks are love and tanks are life, so historical accuracy is 100% an important cornerstone of wot, and this is also the reason any ``modern tank game`` will never be as big as wot, since there are no famous tanks made after ww2...

 

yeah nice an abrams or centurion, but if ppl can choose between tiger or abrams, 99% will choose an tiger (or sherman or T34 or Maus)

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on NA perhaps, but EU and certainly RU tanks are love and tanks are life, so historical accuracy is 100% an important cornerstone of wot, and this is also the reason any ``modern tank game`` will never be as big as wot, since there are no famous tanks made after ww2...

yeah nice an abrams or centurion, but if ppl can choose between tiger or abrams, 99% will choose an tiger (or sherman or T34 or Maus)

Only history buffs have really heard of the Maus, really. And I assume you meant T-34...

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Only history buffs have really heard of the Maus, really. And I assume you meant T-34...

 

not really, its the biggest tank ever built, its like the bismarck :P

 

speaking of bismarck, i dont know anything about ships, except the Yamato, Bismarck, Tirpitz, Gneisnau, Hood, and Prince of Wales, so even if the germany navy was kinda crappy, they still have the by far most famous ship, Bismarck...

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