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Deusmortis

Underside armor?

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I have bounced tons on the belly as of late. E3+Lowe and others with my 140 or T57.

 

I tend to think that the armor listed on the belly is just wrong. If the belly armor was 30mm it wouldnt be overmatch and this would make sense.

 

I dont think overmatch  means autopen. Unless its changed. But overmatch meant it forced a calculation where normally a shot would bounce with huge angle.

 

So my understanding is 25mm@81 degrees would normally bounce anything, but the 3x means it will still do a normal roll. This means though you still need to beat 25mm@81 degrees. So maybe you got a super low roll and it was angled well.

 

IDK maybe im wrong about overmatch, but Im pretty sure its right.

 

 

You're right when you say that overmatch does not mean auto pen.  Triple overmatch simply means no auto ricochet on angles greater than 70 degrees.  

 

Effectively, however, any gun with the caliber necessary to overmatch will have sufficient pen to always go through.  The only possible exceptions I can think of might be the low tier derps.  AP on those 105s is pretty low, and they might not auto pen 30mm plates.  

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I think WG didn't code shooting the belly of tanks correctly, and since it does not happen that often people don't notice that it is broken and therefore don't report it.

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Overmatching don't work until 90mm guns I think

This is patently wrong. take a t1 with browning on an rhm or other paper tank for range testing. Will still always pen. 

 

 

 

The underside not overmatching is something I've noticed but never really outraged over. A lot of underside hits will still catch the lfp armor wrapping. but you're right about it being a little too wonky. I'm not sure how though, because the only thing that seems different in the armor vis-a-vis tank viewer is that it always has its own unique value (which is in theory 3x overmatchable). Now, if there's something in that value (maybe the archaic homogenization value) that makes it functionally immune, it'd be interesting.

 

 

I'm wondering if people would be willing to do some tests on underside pens. 

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You're right when you say that overmatch does not mean auto pen.  Triple overmatch simply means no auto ricochet on angles greater than 70 degrees.  

 

Effectively, however, any gun with the caliber necessary to overmatch will have sufficient pen to always go through.  The only possible exceptions I can think of might be the low tier derps.  AP on those 105s is pretty low, and they might not auto pen 30mm plates.  

 

I looked at this on the official forums recently.  The 152mm guns that are tier 7 and below (gun tier, not tank tier) can have problems with 45mm armor at higher angles of incidence - the only specific case I looked at.  I think it starts to be an iffy pen roll when the normalized angle is 75 degrees or higher.

 

Even within this case, though, triple overmatch should be a high-probability mechanism.

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You're right when you say that overmatch does not mean auto pen.  Triple overmatch simply means no auto ricochet on angles greater than 70 degrees.  

 

Effectively, however, any gun with the caliber necessary to overmatch will have sufficient pen to always go through.  The only possible exceptions I can think of might be the low tier derps.  AP on those 105s is pretty low, and they might not auto pen 30mm plates.  

 

Weird how I always thought that triple overmatch means auto-pen (I thought I read it somewhere). But you're right, I checked the battle mechanics wiki post:

 

OvermatchEdit

If the AP or APCR shell's caliber is 2 times or more than the nominal thickness of the armour (Such as a 120mm shell hitting a 60mm thick plate), projectile shell normalizationis increased by the following formula: basic normalization * 1.4 * shell caliber / nominal armour thickness. Note that the shell is still capable of bouncing if it strikes the armor at an angle of 70° or more from normal.

If the AP or APCR shell caliber is 3 times or more than the nominal thickness of the armour (such as a 120mm shell hitting a 40mm thick plate), no ricochet will happen even if the impact angle is more than 70° from normal. The increased shell normalization described above will also occur.

In cases involving HE shells or external module hits, overmatch does not occur.

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Wargaming randomly changes your shell size +-25%, meaning that if you have a 100mm gun you are actually firing shells between 75mm and 125mm in size

 

This is to promote unexpected and thereby exciting outcomes to combat

 

 

Naw I'm trolling, but I wouldn't be surprised

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It's not just a penetration issue, it's like the hit box simply doesn't exist on some tanks. I've bounced large caliber HE rounds off the belly pan of multiple tanks tanks for zero damage, at least one from close enough range that I took damage from my own explosion. Follow-up shots in front of the weld line would do normal damage; shots a few pixels away on the back side of the weld line would just go away.

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I have triggered triple overmatch on belly armor before, so it's not completely broken. At least, that's the only explanation I can find for this D-30 AP round (maximum penetration roll: 218.75mm) killing this AT-15.

 

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Before you say "oh, you hit the lower plate, not the belly", the flat part of the lower plate is 229mm, and the parts around it 127mm at sufficient slope to prevent penetration. I ran the math some while ago, but the thread I started seems to have disappeared from my history.

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i agree with others and don't believe the belly has a hit box. playing in the lower tiers i see new players do this often and i always try take the shots. it doesn't produce the results it should - EVER. i will target lower glacias, but if they crest a hill to far i will aim for the belly armor. for example on fiery salient you see this happen a lot up on the hill when defenders on the hill push to far.

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I have triggered triple overmatch on belly armor before, so it's not completely broken. At least, that's the only explanation I can find for this D-30 AP round (maximum penetration roll: 218.75mm) killing this AT-15.

 

Before you say "oh, you hit the lower plate, not the belly", the flat part of the lower plate is 229mm, and the parts around it 127mm at sufficient slope to prevent penetration. I ran the math some while ago, but the thread I started seems to have disappeared from my history.

 

I don't think you actually hit his belly plate. The map there is fairly flat, and the slight bump in the road he is on, doesn't seem sufficient to allow a ballistic (even a WoT-"ballistic") shot to hit, much less penetrate his belly plate. I'd rather opt for the good old "What you record is what you see on your screen, not what happens on the server"-excuse in this case and there seems enough small leeway for having hit his LFP where you could penetrate just a few inches up. But let's assume for a moment that you actually hit his belly plate there: What else is it, that disables belly shots at less than your displayed outright exotic angle? Invisible geomatry in the terrain near ledges? It's a thought worth to be entertained, but such a case would prevent LFP-penetrations in the same place, too, which it doesn't seem to do.

 

We really need to test this out. I'm on the EU-Server-Clusters, so I'm kinda out of the testing-crowd here, but I'll see if I can convince a friend to invest some time into some testing, in between this horrible Type 62 grinding >.<

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I have not had a single shot pen in that situation. I have had E100 rounds(AP) bounce of the underside of soft mediums above me. If that isn't overmatch, I don't know what is.

 

Ditto, any time I've had an underbelly shot with an angle that I know should pen it has bounced.  I'm talking being at the bottom of a hill shooting up at a tank that is cresting showing me their flat underbelly.

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Underside armour is buggy as shit. I remember first noticing this just after physics was introduced: My Tiger was unable to pen a Sherman cresting a ledge above me. It got tracked and sat there for a while, bouncing 3 of my shots.

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I think that the underside hitbox may not exist on every tank in WoT, so it could be subbing the LFP stats instead. My ruling is that if the belly is 3cm thick and cresting a hill, AP rounds need a great RNG roll to pen while having a high bounce ratio

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ho ho ho, stop spreading falce information!!

shouldn't triple overmatch guaranty a pen.

 

3*25 is 75mm, shooting with 85mm AP should always go though. 

 

This is more or less correct, as Deus says, triple overmatch means 99.99% of the time you have so much penetration that you always penetrate (also because of the massive normalisation you get, see formulas by others)

 

Yeah I tend to bounce 120mm~ 260 pen~ shells off the paper underside of tanks when they crest hills and it is pretty flat.  :

 

Shoot better :P

 

I have bounced tons on the belly as of late. E3+Lowe and others with my 140 or T57.

 

I tend to think that the armor listed on the belly is just wrong. If the belly armor was 30mm it wouldnt be overmatch and this would make sense.

 

I dont think overmatch  means autopen. Unless its changed. But overmatch meant it forced a calculation where normally a shot would bounce with huge angle.

 

So my understanding is 25mm@81 degrees would normally bounce anything, but the 3x means it will still do a normal roll. This means though you still need to beat 25mm@81 degrees. So maybe you got a super low roll and it was angled well.

 

IDK maybe im wrong about overmatch, but Im pretty sure its right.

 

140 has only 100mm shells, those wont overmatch much, trow in steep angles and you dont have enough penetration

Overmatching don't work until 90mm guns I think

 

It works for all guns, my type 58 with 85mm gun killed a hull down cent, all shells penned his turret roof

 

I believe I've overmatched the IS-3 roof with my 13 75 but it's been awhile since I've actually played the game or that tank.

 

correct, only guns with less as 30 or so mm (or autoguns) dont have overmatch)

I confirm this happening as well. Since all maps are changed towards being more hilly, I got far more opportunities to make such shots, and I remember far too many times screaming on my platoonmates on skype "what da fuk was that?!"

 

I believe it is simply not modeled right. Maybe belly of the tank isn't hitbox at all? Maybe it has to do with HE mechanics? If belly was (too) vulnerable, then HE splashes would deal tons of dmg. Dunno, just a thought...

 

no, ALL tanks have bottom armor and they have it for as long as i know (so since always) every single tank-viewer will also show this, and WG has on more then one occasion buffed (or nerfed) bottom armor

 

also some tanks, like IS8 have a rather nasty weakspot on the bottom (which can, and will, be hit over time)

 

bottom armor is often quite strong though, so overmatching can be hard, E100 bottom for example is 90 or so mm thick...

 

(and before HE rework of 7.0, a splash / near miss did more dmg as a direct hit, because a splash would mean the weak bottom armor takes the hit, a direct hits means the front / side / roof take dmg (and those are almost always thicker)

 

 

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Yeah, some tanks simply have strong undersides.

 

Given that the underside plates are all visible in TankViewer, the only plausible bug I can think of is that the collision detection is single-sided and some plates at the wrong way up, but in that case you're unlikely to get an impact decal.

 

Some verifiable evidence (a replay) would be nice. The shot on the AT 15 in the OP should go through, but as the aim circle extends beyond the bottom plate, it's possible that the shot simply missed.

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I agree that it is broken and no longer shoot at the bottom of tanks. 3-4 times I have taken fully aimed shots straight into the bottom of another tank and the round basically disappears. No critical, no bounce, just gone. Even had a chance to do it with HE once and got the same negative result

 

Although the chance to take these shot is rare to begin with I feel hits to this area should receive bonus dmg or just result in the immediate destruction of enemy tank if the round is big enough.  Consider it punishment for putting your tank in the worst possible position

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Yeah, some tanks simply have strong undersides.

 

Given that the underside plates are all visible in TankViewer, the only plausible bug I can think of is that the collision detection is single-sided and some plates at the wrong way up, but in that case you're unlikely to get an impact decal.

 

Some verifiable evidence (a replay) would be nice. The shot on the AT 15 in the OP should go through, but as the aim circle extends beyond the bottom plate, it's possible that the shot simply missed.

 

 

You mean the T28?  It's a bit tough to see, but look above and slightly to the right of my aim point.  You can see the impact oval.  Doesn't contrast well with the background armor, but it is there.

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You mean the T28?  It's a bit tough to see, but look above and slightly to the right of my aim point.  You can see the impact oval.  Doesn't contrast well with the background armor, but it is there.

 

Ah ok, gotcha. Was it reported as a bounce or a ricochet? The decal looks more like a bounce.

 

I did wonder if the gun on the Type 62 had the wrong calibre internally, but I checked the XML and it's definitely 85.

 

It seems more likely to me that there's a general glitch in the overmatch/normalization mechanics than anything specific to undersides. For example, if the x2 overmatch rule didn't apply in x3 cases then this shot could bounce.

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The amount of times I have bounced badly angled tanks coming up at or stuck over a ridge im convinced the underside armour is not a weak area.

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I dunno if it's been mentioned yet, but I'm pretty sure 2x and 3x overmatch is determined by the caliber of the round, not the penetration of the round.  Just sayin.

 

So if your gun wasn't bigger than 75mm and you were shooting at that 25mm underside, you're not going to overmatch.

 

Underside armor apparently does work properly, as you can pen the bottom (and almost nowhere else) of a SU-85 with a Pz I C.

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I've had shots do no damage into the underside of a tank that was cresting a hill in front of me.  But it doesn't seem to happen all the time.

 

Also, I've done some significant damage to tanks by firing HE shells at the ground under them.  For example, firing HE so it lands behind the front wheels under the middle of the tank worked pretty well on a Maus when I found on "protecting arty" when I was in a medium tank and had HE loaded.

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There is some type of hit box underneath though, as I have missed with HE, hit underneath, and done big splash damage.

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