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Deathpig_Jones

T49 -- Land Arty in a Bite-Size Package

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Some thoughts:

When the T49 was upgraded to tier 9 and got a much better 90mm than the tier 8 version, I said something to the effect of 'the 90mm is the better gun, but the 152mm is still fun'. I am now retracting that, I actually think the 152mm gun is better, specifically because of the type of damage you can deal and the exposure limitations. The 152mm is by FAR harder to use, there is virtually no skill transfer between the engagements and shots you select like there is with the 90mm. Someone used to play virtually any MT and most any other LT will be able to equip the 90mm and get good results because of APCR standard, 3k dpm, good soft stats, and comfortable depression. But with the 152mm you have an advantage in several situations that are important for winning:

  1. You're never unable to deal damage as long as you can aim/hit
  2. You can damage superheavies(well everything) reliably at all ranges and angles
  3. Its very easy to track tanks
  4. You eliminate soft tanks faster on flanks + the fear factor 
  5. You expose less and thus can use camo more

The margin is small. And the situations where the 90mm is superior are also useful (on the medium flank, when something soft but not ultrasoft is in the open, in dogfights with tanks > 350 hp) to winning, but the ability to chode slap the enemy's heaviest tanks, while crushing their lightest ones is a winning combo. 

 

Second thought:

The Hwk12 is a nice tier 8 that has many of the characteristics of the T49 for those of us who are addicts and don't want to switch up play styles. Its probably the best tier 8 LT - speed, camo, depression, VR, it has it all. 630 m/s shell velocity holds back plenty of players, but since thats only 50m/s slower than the 152mm, you'll be used to it. A damn shame it doesn't tote a 15cm HE gun though :-D

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2 hours ago, CraBeatOff said:

Some thoughts:

When the T49 was upgraded to tier 9 and got a much better 90mm than the tier 8 version, I said something to the effect of 'the 90mm is the better gun, but the 152mm is still fun'. I am now retracting that, I actually think the 152mm gun is better, specifically because of the type of damage you can deal and the exposure limitations. The 152mm is by FAR harder to use, there is virtually no skill transfer between the engagements and shots you select like there is with the 90mm. Someone used to play virtually any MT and most any other LT will be able to equip the 90mm and get good results because of APCR standard, 3k dpm, good soft stats, and comfortable depression. But with the 152mm you have an advantage in several situations that are important for winning:

  1. You're never unable to deal damage as long as you can aim/hit
  2. You can damage superheavies(well everything) reliably at all ranges and angles
  3. Its very easy to track tanks
  4. You eliminate soft tanks faster on flanks + the fear factor 
  5. You expose less and thus can use camo more

The margin is small. And the situations where the 90mm is superior are also useful (on the medium flank, when something soft but not ultrasoft is in the open, in dogfights with tanks > 350 hp) to winning, but the ability to chode slap the enemy's heaviest tanks, while crushing their lightest ones is a winning combo. 

 

 

Is it one of those things that's "it's a better gun overall" or is it "its a better gun in the hands of either an elite player or a skilled player running in platoons"

Honestly- yes I've watched yours/duals/ and the other assorted replays posted here, and absolutely, the gun works for you all, but you're all considerably above average players.

I've been chasing down and killing T49 derps recently in the 54Lt, and while I had to switch to a large med kit (when that thing hits it knocks out 2 crew at least) I don't get hit that often. Just swerve around/emergency brake and often I can get them to miss, then fire 2 or 3 shots into them before they reload, rinse and repeat. I take a lot more damage from a 90mm armed one.

Again, if it's a platoon of green or higher I stay away from it unless they split up, and I've never met up with one but I'm guessing most elite players would be able to lever the 152's damage to beat me, but for most of the players I've run into- the 152 may be more fun, but I think they\d do a lot better with the 90.

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5 hours ago, Canadian_Reaper said:

Is it one of those things that's "it's a better gun overall" or is it "its a better gun in the hands of either an elite player or a skilled player running in platoons"

Honestly- yes I've watched yours/duals/ and the other assorted replays posted here, and absolutely, the gun works for you all, but you're all considerably above average players.

I've been chasing down and killing T49 derps recently in the 54Lt, and while I had to switch to a large med kit (when that thing hits it knocks out 2 crew at least) I don't get hit that often. Just swerve around/emergency brake and often I can get them to miss, then fire 2 or 3 shots into them before they reload, rinse and repeat. I take a lot more damage from a 90mm armed one.

Again, if it's a platoon of green or higher I stay away from it unless they split up, and I've never met up with one but I'm guessing most elite players would be able to lever the 152's damage to beat me, but for most of the players I've run into- the 152 may be more fun, but I think they\d do a lot better with the 90.

Better at the top end only. The scenario you outline of 54LW is precisely the kind of thing we assiduously avoid though, until the 54LW is splashable or trackable in front of guns. So yes, you can bully bad players...and virtually everyone is bad at LTs. So a middle of the road player is gonna do better with the 90mm, sure, but people should aspire, especially if they read this thread.

@rev01ution the people need a summary of what you've learned. You've become an expert slapper quickly, share the knowledges!

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So I finally got around to moving a crew into this thing after having it unlocked for ages.

I totally get what @CraBeatOff is saying. For a middling player like me, the 90mm is much easier to be consistent with. The playstyle is similar to other light tanks and mediums and a lot of things that you've learned going down the line still apply. It's a fat light with a great gun and can contribute as a damage dealer.

The derp however... I've not had it too long (just about 10 games) but boy oh boy is it still famine and feast at the moment. I've had close to fully aimed shots just fly off into the ether. But then you have those glorious moments when you penetrate some poor sod and either delete them outright or shave off a huge chunk of their health. I'm a solo player so you absolutely have to be careful, and will get let down by your team on occasions. I totally get how in platoons, especially skilled ones, this tank becomes deadly.

Still learning how to play it with the derp, and to get used to the gun handling, which is by far the worst on anything I've played apart from arty, but it's different, a challenge and fun. I can see why this tank is very popular.

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@CraBeatOff Also derp requires only one mistake made by enemy to punish him hard. Even good players give me a chance to show them a pleasure of surprise butt sex. 90mm would be less effective. 

This fear factor has the other side - brave factor. Some of allies push a bit to finish an enemy crippled with 900+ shot. Do it twice and flank wins. 

Derp limits exposure time which is extremely important in any paper tank. Usually tanks stop being lit after 10 seconds so it's possible to shot, hide and strike again from hidden. 

Btw Crab please fix formatting of my post. Can't delete quote boxes on phone. 

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Man the 152mm can be a source of joy and frustration. I see why most players having more success with the 90mm is generally agreed upon. However, you should all make the switch to the 152 because in addition to being good its also important to stress the fun factor when playing. I started making a couple notes about what I can share to help everyone have more success but those idea were morphing into some long post that I'm not ready to write up at this time. I do want to post something now, so this is my tip to make the fun part of the tank work better for you- the gun.

There are some simple things you can do to make the bad gun handling of the big gun better, @CraBeatOff mentions in previous posts about feathering your W key as you approach a ridge line or corner to keep your aiming circle small. Also to avoid hull rotation at all costs, because that will fuck your aim faster than anything else. To add to those things- I will often assume approx what direction my turret will need to be facing for the next shot opportunity I may or may not have and point my gun that direction early, then hold my right mouse button to prevent any turret bloom while I position my hull and approach the spot I want to peak, releasing right mouse to "reactivate" my turret just before I'm about to derp someone. This obviously takes a few seconds to accomplish by setting up but it cuts down on exposure time once you poke. It also makes the accuracy of your shot much better than if you were pressing W for a full second to crest your tank and also just had your turret pointed at some other spot.

http://wotreplays.eu/site/3832471#murovanka-rev01ution-t49

Here is a replay where you can clearly see how big the aiming circle is when I crest hills/corners with an unlocked turret, (its pretty big, and the aiming time required gets me shot on occasion) compared to with a locked turret at timestamp 4:55 remaining. You can see how I set up that shot. I know all enemies will be to my left because of how I will approach the cap circle, so I point the turret left. Then you'll see my turret doesn't move again as I make my approach while holding the right mouse button (avoiding turret bloom but still have the ability to look around). I close in on the cap circle and make my final adjustment, turning the hull of the tank to the right just slightly to give me a better angle to be exposed a little less. Then I unlock the turret, drive forward slowly and you can see my aim circle is very controlled against that enemy TD.

The whole replay also speaks to the fun factor of the tank, although I didn't do very many light tank things in the middle minutes of the match. Also please excuse my delusions of grandeur in the chat lol

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23 hours ago, CraBeatOff said:

Some thoughts:

When the T49 was upgraded to tier 9 and got a much better 90mm than the tier 8 version, I said something to the effect of 'the 90mm is the better gun, but the 152mm is still fun'. I am now retracting that, I actually think the 152mm gun is better, specifically because of the type of damage you can deal and the exposure limitations. The 152mm is by FAR harder to use, there is virtually no skill transfer between the engagements and shots you select like there is with the 90mm. Someone used to play virtually any MT and most any other LT will be able to equip the 90mm and get good results because of APCR standard, 3k dpm, good soft stats, and comfortable depression. But with the 152mm you have an advantage in several situations that are important for winning:

  1. You're never unable to deal damage as long as you can aim/hit
  2. You can damage superheavies(well everything) reliably at all ranges and angles
  3. Its very easy to track tanks
  4. You eliminate soft tanks faster on flanks + the fear factor 
  5. You expose less and thus can use camo more

The margin is small. And the situations where the 90mm is superior are also useful (on the medium flank, when something soft but not ultrasoft is in the open, in dogfights with tanks > 350 hp) to winning, but the ability to chode slap the enemy's heaviest tanks, while crushing their lightest ones is a winning combo. 

 

Second thought:

The Hwk12 is a nice tier 8 that has many of the characteristics of the T49 for those of us who are addicts and don't want to switch up play styles. Its probably the best tier 8 LT - speed, camo, depression, VR, it has it all. 630 m/s shell velocity holds back plenty of players, but since thats only 50m/s slower than the 152mm, you'll be used to it. A damn shame it doesn't tote a 15cm HE gun though :-D

About the Hwk: it gets same camo as the wz 132 but it is smaller and gets the highest view range of all tier 8 lts (410). Another great thing is the small size allowing surf spotting with minimal exposure. So you have the best out of tier 8s bar shell velocity and HE resistance. 

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1 minute ago, nabucodonsor said:

About the Hwk: it gets same camo as the wz 132 but it is smaller and gets the highest view range of all tier 8 lts (410). Another great thing is the small size allowing surf spotting with minimal exposure. So you have the best out of tier 8s bar shell velocity and HE resistance. 

Agreed, the surf spotting is insane. 1100 assisted in a tier 8 LT? So stealthy!

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2 hours ago, CraBeatOff said:

Thats my Hwk12 average.

 

edit its 1275

Oh I thought it was a bit awkward you mentioned a 1k  game LOL. My bad. That is impressive! 

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52 minutes ago, nabucodonsor said:

Oh I thought it was a bit awkward you mentioned a 1k  game LOL. My bad. That is impressive! 

No, a 1k single game is nothing. 1275 average is...a thing. My T-100LT is around 1300-1400, in a tier with much more HP! I honestly was surprised, but I know its effective, because I can solo it nearly at 70%. 

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K I have to ask- how careful do you have to be with the T49 (And Sheridan I guess) at rounding corners?(While driving semi fast) I love the 54Lt but I seem to have a chance to flip over almost anytime I hit a bump at teh same time as I'm turning the tank, not sure if it's just the 54lt (or maybe my driving) or if it applies to all the scout tanks.

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32 minutes ago, Canadian_Reaper said:

K I have to ask- how careful do you have to be with the T49 (And Sheridan I guess) at rounding corners?(While driving semi fast) I love the 54Lt but I seem to have a chance to flip over almost anytime I hit a bump at teh same time as I'm turning the tank, not sure if it's just the 54lt (or maybe my driving) or if it applies to all the scout tanks.

Pretty much anything that goes fast can flip since the flipping/e-brake physics patch. Its more annoying than anything, but the e-brake was prob worth it. Sheridan flips like crazy, super fast traverse, high hp/t and boat-like hull. T49 sticks to the ground a bit better, prone to flipping but less so than the 54LW. Also much easier to flip back, because of the taller hulls you end up on your side, which doesn't have a destruction timer, and is easy for any tank to bump you back. 

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3 hours ago, Kolni said:

the one time i played t49 on my stream, dualmaster came on to watch like he sensed it 

then i just assume he left once he saw that i played with the small gun :doge: 

I still feel sad inside...

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Extra thoughts on 152mm vs 90mm:

A normal hit ratio for a good player with the 90mm is 80-82%. Pen ratio about the same 80-82%, maybe as high as 85% for the very skilled (thinking about Daki in WGLNA seasons), but @CarbonWard pretty much always shows 82 and 82 in his sessions across all guns - we'll consider him a gold standard. This gives you 0.82*0.82 = 67% damaging rate

The 152 sees 0.68-0.70 hit rate among the skilled. But your damage rate is generally 97-98% of those hits, if you're using HEAT intelligently you're still gonna fail to pen them sometimes and you sometimes get 0 dmg HE crits. You'd prob see 99% damage rates if you always shot only HE, but then you'd not be using the gun optimally. So 0.69*0.97= 67% damage rate...its the same. Now, this doesn't get into the stuff like...misses with the 152 that still do damage (no idea how YasenKrasen counts those), shots you REALLY NEED TO HIT TO WIN, that fall in that ~15% hit gap, or the ever impressive 2 digit damage on a bad splash (Maus loses 43 hp, team tells you that you are a bad scout and should be suiciding for TDs early). But my overall point is that the feast or famine nature of the gun feels high and it is, because of that handling/accuracy  and the accompanying gap, but that the ability to put out the damaging hits in the long run ends up very close to the same (and see previous posts about why I think the nature of the 152 damage is better).

The Sheridan seems to show about 1% better hit rate than the T49 btw, chalked up to the faster aim-time and higher final accuracy (0.53 v 0.48 in my usual set-ups. note:Sheridan has worse soft stats so the gap is smaller than it would be if they gave it the T49's handling). The hope is that the improved vstab and improved vents (0.01 more accuracy whee!) can take that hit-rate up to 70-71%. Working through our napkin math above, and presuming a normal average of 2200 under current conditions a 2% increase in hits because of lower aim-time and high accuracy means you can be looking at...40 more damage per game. A piddling raw amount, but it does mean you're closing the miss gap from 15% to 13%, which is itself a  13% (2/15) reduction in missed shots, which is more substantial (while still being silly fucking tiny, but hey this kind of twisted min-max thinking is what this forum was founded on). 

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A further note, even though I would have gone hill boost, that might have not won as well as him just keeping distance and letting the TDs work. Its always best to err on the side of caution and hp preservation in the early stages!Tokimi from -G- asked me to check out a replay, as he is historically a HT driver and making the transition to derptroll and chodeslapper. Here is the replay: http://wotreplays.eu/site/3841525#tundra-tokimi-t49

Here are my notes, copied from slack, posted with his consent:

A further note, even though I would have gone hill boost, that might have not won as well as him just keeping distance and letting the TDs work. Its always best to err on the side of caution and hp preservation in the early stages!

Quote

1. run food, while this makes the tank go from very profitable to close to net zero, the accuracy and VR alone are worth it, plus all the other benefits. With bulk purchased 10k food, you net profits, even at normal unicum levels of play. I make a nice ROI off my 10k food at high damage levels, but since there is never a reason to spam prem HE, its a good candidate. Cola in bulk! I usually buy a couple million worth. Dualmaster has been known to buy 10mil worth at a time!


[11:16] 
2. Your opener spot is pretty good, but can have problems. You need to be up there a long time, and shit in their spawn CAN crush you before you even half aim that shot. I honestly just go to the base of the hill, on both sides. The tank is fast enough to get there and get aimed. You can often dunk something for 900 because light armor tanks go there, or at the least you track them for your team. Especially on the N spawn on Tundra where you can boost up to the top later, then opener on the hill is worth. Much lower exposure than your opener.


[11:17] 
3. You sit still before dropping lights - keep moving arty wants to pen you. Arty is accurate. Arty fucking hates LTs, especially -G- ones, or ones driven by good players. Lights drop timing is ez in T49...half your reload


[11:18] 
4. 2nd shot is very good. You find the angle, stalk it, wait until its aimed. Sure you "miss" low, but 330 dmg NO PROBLEM. Do be careful about lingering near the same spot for 2 shots in a row, but since it was from a different platform, gj


[11:20] 
5. At this point, post 2nd shot, you have a dilemma - hill has only a WZ-132 who can and will be pushed by the T-54 and 263. The mauschen is going hill and theres 3 TDs in support. I personally would at this point begin using the backside of the hill boost to support/harass until the mauschen is in place and to try to bait their T-54 and 263 into my TDs.


[11:22] 
6. This is confirmed as you spend some time wandering around middle. Spotting whats in the river is good - teams always need info, but you're kind of in no-mans land. Especially that mid bridge, very risky exposure because TDs like to lurk across and your aim-time is long.


[11:22] 
7. The shot on the 4202 - see this post by rev01lution about pre-aiming corners -


[11:24] 
you could have spent 1/3rd as long hanging out on the bridge and gotten dat ass (RNG willing). Making it a habit to settle the reticle is good. TDs across bridge aside, the choice to take an ass shot here could have been a fine hp trade (560 for 910). Once the WaffleIV has fired though...make the trade. A big part of T49 winning is just accepting your hp trades - you trade pretty well 1to1 when you're setting up a penetrating shot...so make sure they pen to the best of your ability


[11:25] 
8. Decision to relocate fully and drop lights with enemy securely on the hill is confirmed as good


[11:26] 
Decision to use camo and check on the 54mod1 before committing to a shot also confirmed as good. I see you stalking the RU251. I tent my fingers in evil anticipation. But shooting the ISU for a killshot before he smacks your Mauschen also good

9 Fabulous positioning and elimination of the RU. Maybe stay unspotted a moment longer (arty)


[1:40] 
10. Excellent re-position towards the 140. The hill is contained as its gonna be, and with T30 and T49 raining shots with few distractions you're just fodder there. Similar to the RU, maintain being out of LoS of the 140 for longer...you can close another 60-70m before you need to go around the hill, this means a couple things, first that if he had lived and you needed to finish him off you'd have had a quicker shot from in close. The grass was lucky camo cover, in these late game zoom zooms, closing distance (when its safe) is key to making sure you hit the shot.


[1:41] 
11. That being said, you play the Skorp G and Rhoomba perfectly. The only sad part being that you didn't get to take a bigger dump.


[1:41] 
12. Post Rhm, a little risky, the 263/T49 could have ended you (edited)


[1:44] 
13. Up 12-8 you're almost certainly going to win...but your Xs are low hp, and the 263 can mess with pubbies, as can a good T49. Your caution is warranted!


[1:45] 
14. Pre-Load HEAT for 263 butts, just an FYI, especially at 500 something hp. You might low roll and not get it, but you'll only do 350 with HE


[1:46] 
15. Quality 5k combined on a brawl map, T49Lyfe. My points above are nitpicks, and I absolutely agree, you're getting the hang!

tokimi [8:29 AM] 
Thankyou, I think my biggest hurdle right now is my opener where i am exploring new options which are unfamiliar

[8:32] 
7) i probably would have moved on from the bridge if i had not thought helping that middle river was important

 

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I wish my hitrate in the T49 was .68, my WoTlabs page shows it as .57 which is abysmally bad.

 

I chalk it up to a lot of on-the-move snapshotting and my bad autoaim habits and a lack of patience, lmao.

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33 minutes ago, PlanetaryGenocide said:

I wish my hitrate in the T49 was .68, my WoTlabs page shows it as .57 which is abysmally bad.

 

I chalk it up to a lot of on-the-move snapshotting and my bad autoaim habits and a lack of patience, lmao.

I have an idea about how you can increase your dpg 10% :-D

In all seriousness though, winger shots that I often take in other tanks I don't take in the derp wagons for a couple of reasons:

  1. I'm not usually engaging enemies in that manner if its closer range
  2. They don't hit
  3. The opportunity cost of the reload is really high
  4. Its often not worth breaking camo if at a distance and not aimed in properly (except on high payoffs like Grille/Skorp/FV4005)
  5. 683 m/s shell speed doesn't work on even the most modest distances and lateral movement
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I still stand by the 90mm. For playing competitively and not shits and giggles a gun that you can't rely on is a bad gun, especially when nothing's guaranteed and a perfectly aimed HE shell at 60m onto a soft butt still has the chance of trolling you, meaning the few targets you can actually rely on penetrating get less reliable simply because of HE mechanics and how they work. 

I had tons of fun playing the 152, but now with the uptier the 90mm is just so much better in terms of both damage output and general light tank gameplay. 

 

Shenanigans are obviously great too though :doge: 

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OK, so I have one US LT crew looking for a home and I aspire to be a junior choad$tar.  Is the T49 a better final platform for harvesting dat ass or should I push through to the derpidan?  I know the T49 is a lot sexier than the alumabrick and the gun handling looks better as well.

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10 minutes ago, Archaic_One said:

OK, so I have one US LT crew looking for a home and I aspire to be a junior choad$tar.  Is the T49 a better final platform for harvesting dat ass or should I push through to the derpidan?  I know the T49 is a lot sexier than the alumabrick and the gun handling looks better as well.

The Sheridan is technically better, but the MM is far worse, making the T49 the superior troll by a fair margin.

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