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Guardian54

Tier 8 Balance OPINIONS of a Baddie

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Ok, here's my issue.  I wanna see somebody actually record a large sample size - meaning 200-500 matches, if not more - showing how often their non-pref Tier 8s are top tier, middle tier, and bottom tier.  I'd really like to see multiple people do this.  I'll try and remember to do it myself.  Platoon or solo, doesn't really matter to me - platooning shouldn't affect your match tiers anyway.

 

I wanna see this, because I remember the days when arty parties were making Tiers 9 and 10 unplayable.  I don't remember those days because I hated playing Tiers 9 and 10 - I didn't have a 9 or 10 at that point.  What I do remember, very distinctly, is the fact that because nobody wanted to run their Tier 9s and 10s, Tier 8s got BT8 the overwhelming majority of the time.  Having a metric fuck-ton of BT8 matches meant Tier 6es were getting drawn into BT8 matches constantly.  Some evenings it wasn't even that much fun to run a Tier 6.  You were fine if you got a relatively open map, and had the chance to shoot the Tier 8s in the sides, but if you had a map in the rotation like Mountain Pass, and got funneled into your choice of three different head-to-head confrontations, you were screwed - this was before gold rounds for credits was a thing.  Or maybe you'd just end up on Himmelsdorf or Ensk, which are great maps, and a lot of fun, but the close quarters tend to favor top tier tanks over bottom tier, more than the more open maps do, where a bottom tier tank at least might be able to disengage, run, and find a different approach.  If a KV-4 decides he's gonna push down an alley on Ensk or Himmelsdorf, and gold rounds aren't a thing yet, there's not a lot many Tier 6es are gonna do.  That guy in the ARL will probably be happy he's rocking a 212mm pen 90mm gun, but a Jumbo?  A T-34-85, or a 3601, or an SU-100?  They're gonna die.  A KV-2 is gonna get one blap in, maybe, then die.

 

Anyway - my theory is that a lot of people are remembering the good old days when Tier 8s almost never had to deal with Tier 9 and 10 tanks, and they're entirely forgetting being stuck in a Tier 6 tank having to deal with a Type 59 running them down every other match.  Before there's this big "Bring Back BT12" campaign, I'd like to see that there's an actual problem with Tier 8 getting stuck at bottom tier any more than any other tier does.


Stopped reading when I saw the T32 rated 4/10.

 

I don't know why, but the T32 seems to inspire only giddy love, or burning hate.  Some people can't deal with the meh accuracy and pen, and others looooove the armor, mobility, view range, gun depression and gun handling.  I'm one that loves my T32.

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VBaddict records the average battle tier for each of your tanks and you can download it in .csv and do a PivotTable on it, but I don't see one for all the players' combined.

 

Also it probably wouldn't be split up between before and after they removed battle tier 12. Would be nice to see the % split of how often each tier of tanks gets into their respective battle tiers.

 

Edit:

The category for it is: http://www.vbaddict.net/statistics.php?fieldname=mm_tier_avg but it doesn't show any data for me, sadly.

 

It's a pitiful sample size, but anyway:

Centurion I, 106 battles: top tier 46% of the time, middle 40%, bottom in tier 10 matches 20%

Borsig, 32 recorded battles: 47%, 28%, 25%

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I don't know why, but the T32 seems to inspire only giddy love, or burning hate.  Some people can't deal with the meh accuracy and pen, and others looooove the armor, mobility, view range, gun depression and gun handling.  I'm one that loves my T32.

 

Yeah that's my issue, I immediately dismissed the post as bad because I immediately dismiss somebody as bad if they say the T32 penetration is too low.

 

As you stated it has two slightly weak for tier stats (pen & accuracy) yet has five positives that are all extremely strong advantages. Even on a basic numbers game it wins out.

 

Not even considering the accuracy isn't even that bad with full crew, for a tier 8. Especially at the ranges you can safely engage at.

 

I generally assume lower skill players fixate on the hard stats of a vehicle, and in the case of the t32 the hard stats look bad. More skilled players look past these and value the entire package. So yeah, OP is definitely a 'baddie' if he thinks the T32 is 4/10.

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Yes, I do like Panther II better than Pershing regardless of what rounds I'm spitting, so what? You don't agree? Fine, that's your opinion.

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Exactly why I'm making a post, because I'm not a unicum I can get off the HEAT-54 throne and do a grunt's breakdown instead of an idealist. Garbad rated T-34-2 6/10... Yeah maybe in the hands of a unicum the gimmick works but for the average pubbie... fuck no.

 

 

Which is your problem, it's YOUR opinion, not fact. For example, it is a well understood fact among the vast majority of goods that the M26 is statistically better than the turd that is the Panther 2 but it is your opinion that the Panther 2 is for some unfathomable reason better than the Pershing despite pretty much everything suggesting otherwise.

 

 

The average poster on this forum isn't what one would call "average", maybe you accidentally clicked on the wrong forum?

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Which is your problem, it's YOUR opinion, not fact. For example, it is a well understood fact among the vast majority of goods that the M26 is statistically better than the turd that is the Panther 2 but it is your opinion that the Panther 2 is for some unfathomable reason better than the Pershing despite pretty much everything suggesting otherwise.

The average poster on this forum isn't what one would call "average", maybe you accidentally clicked on the wrong forum?

Panther 2 = M26 - True in extremely concessionary situations

Panther 2 > 100% Jesus APCR M26 - criminally retarded.

M26 APCR alone is enough to make the P2 worse.

I also like how 416 HEAT = OPmachine, but the 268 APCR = not worth it.

SPersh = M26 lol ok

P2 mobility = no complaints, M26 mobility = impotent

The post does indeed live up to its title, though.

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I'm actually about too buy the Cent. 1, and would be willing to record every game played in it. I play on the NA wrapper for Mac but switched out install files to EU..so unfortunately I can't use VBaddict, but I can use replays to see the average battle tier over the (at least 200) battles I will do before unlocking the Cent 7/1.

 

I have noted that whenever I play my T-44, it got LOTS of tier 10 in comparison to my IS-3. My IS-3 is top tier so much it's my go-to tank whenever I feel MM is screwing me. I don't know if the medium T8 MM weight is more suitable for balancing battle tier 10 than heavies..

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I'd have to disagree on the FCM 50t. That tank is far greater than you are giving it credit right now, as it has great pen and although french and bad armour, those slopes and pref MM can lead to some hilarious bounces. Matter of fact, little positioning earlier today and I bounced an IS-6 twice off the front of the FCM. It also has the excellent flex ability that is so crucial to the success of most matches, and can help pull a win instead of a loss.

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Fixed it up a bit, now 7/10 for professional harassers (still not 50 100 levels of greatness of course).

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I don't think you know how to play. Your arguments are still just as wrong. Your accusing me of not reading seems to be an attempt to divert attention from the fact that you've done absolutely NOTHING to address your failure. Do tell me more about how the Superpershing is a good tank though.

 

Your saying that the T34 is a good tank alone is enough to make any good player laugh. Your saying the T34 is better than the T32 and FCM discredits your ENTIRE post

 

110 = IS-3 = OPOPOP

 

Panther 2 > FullAPCR M26 (lol)

 

Cent 1 > Full APCR M26 (lolol)

 

Panther 2 = T44 (lololol)

 

Tiger 2 is better than T32

 

112 better than the IS-6 for better players (despite every better player saying that the IS6 is better)

 

ISU and JP2 aren't much better than the Ferdi, despite the JP2 being one of the best TDs and the Ferd one of the worst/

 

The AT15 is better than the JP2 and ISU (are you fucking kidding me?)

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T34 > FCM fixed (might just be my impression that in a fast tank I really need to be moving and harassing everywhere whereas T34 life is more simplistic and relaxing... particularly the wait for the not-so-badly-bloomed gun to aim in)

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I guess you forgot your bad player days where you were constantly looking to not run dry on credits? Yes, in case you've forgotten, for pubbies without premium account, unlike you or I, ammo cost really matters. Stingy asses like me also give a shit about ammo cost unless driving a premium tank (read: my SP driving experiences, few as they were).

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Tiger II vs T32... the latter is a bully tank with inadequate pen, the former is pretty average in all ways... but can actually go through most Tier 9s/10s frontally SOMEWHERE or other (I hereby commit the sin of thinking most pubbies can learn shooting LFPs by tier 8) without costing more than 4K credits a pop.

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O look, I got raged on last time for saying IS-6 was grossly OP, and a bunch of people yelled at me about how 112 can be abused further. Make up your damned mind.

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Ferdi = bully tank, ISU/JP2 = still good when bottom tier but have glaring flaws (Ferdi isn't THAT slow), therefore, JP2/ISU > Ferdi, but not by too much.

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AT 15 = extreme bully tank if not a total noobtard. With camo nerfs, survivability matters, a lot. 

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You, sir, are raging at anyone not an already overinflated ego daring to talk. I recommend you stop, because Garbad was a laughingstock at one point too.

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Guardian ... with 14K Games ... did you play and grind all these tanks or just read the stats and interperet them all?

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I ground through every single one except the 9 that I mentioned at the start of the post.

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I was stupid enough to grind the Cent 1 from bone stock, and am maniacal enough to do it all over again.

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Yeah that's my issue, I immediately dismissed the post as bad because I immediately dismiss somebody as bad if they say the T32 penetration is too low.

 

As you stated it has two slightly weak for tier stats (pen & accuracy) yet has five positives that are all extremely strong advantages. Even on a basic numbers game it wins out.

 

Not even considering the accuracy isn't even that bad with full crew, for a tier 8. Especially at the ranges you can safely engage at.

 

I generally assume lower skill players fixate on the hard stats of a vehicle, and in the case of the t32 the hard stats look bad. More skilled players look past these and value the entire package. So yeah, OP is definitely a 'baddie' if he thinks the T32 is 4/10.

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If you balanced this game for the unicums, then it would break. I'm giving an opinion based on average pubbie IQ... or at least trying because that is an incomprehensible value.

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T32 is a good bully tank, but now that BT12 is gone unless it has limited MM (IS6) Tier 8s see 10s a LOT more than 6s.

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Which is your problem, it's YOUR opinion, not fact. For example, it is a well understood fact among the vast majority of goods that the M26 is statistically better than the turd that is the Panther 2 but it is your opinion that the Panther 2 is for some unfathomable reason better than the Pershing despite pretty much everything suggesting otherwise.

 

 

The average poster on this forum isn't what one would call "average", maybe you accidentally clicked on the wrong forum?

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MY M26 cleanly outperforms Panther II, so I agree it might just be absence making the heart grow fonder, but I always felt 203 pen to be far more acceptable than 180, and given how annoyingly expensive APCR seemed back in my early M26 days, that haunted me pretty badly. I was always bleeding circa 20K credits per game with it, unlike Panther II which is workable enough with standard ammo versus the front of most Tier 8 heavies.

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4/10 IS-6?

No wonder why it has the highest expected damage in Tier 8 Heavies. It eats IS-3 all day long with APCR.(which you rated 6/10)

I had stopped reading since that.

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Last time I did a breakdown using the stats from noobmeter for the tanks. I got shouted down when I noticed IS-6 was so grossly OP for tier that it should really get full MM or be nerfed across the board.

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The I realized...How about fighting tier 9s?

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Are...are you basing your balance arguments on ammo cost?

 

You do realise any tier 9/10 is going straight through a KT?

 

The t32 has a highly reliable turret with excellent depression. You have gold to compensate for frontal shots.

 

But hey, you seem to be labouring under the stupid idea that ammo costs factor into vehicle  balancing. If you never use APCR on the T32 you will struggle. That doesn't mean the tank is bad, it means you are a fucking cheapskate who either needs to stay out of tier 8s or get premium.

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Are...are you basing your balance arguments on ammo cost?

 

You do realise any tier 9/10 is going straight through a KT?

 

The t32 has a highly reliable turret with excellent depression. You have gold to compensate for frontal shots.

 

But hey, you seem to be labouring under the stupid idea that ammo costs factor into vehicle  balancing. If you never use APCR on the T32 you will struggle. That doesn't mean the tank is bad, it means you are a fucking cheapskate who either needs to stay out of tier 8s or get premium.

Personally I would swap the places of the T32 and T34. The t34 would make a great non premium again, with a few buffs to gun handleing and terrain resistance. The T32 could become a tier 8 prem with limited mm, it would loose the unhistorical 105mm gun and use either the stock 90mm or a modified version of the pershing's gun (I.e nerfed point & click APCR pen).

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The T32 is one of the most balanced vehicles in the game. It doesn't need changing.

 

I'd take my T32 out over my T34 anyday. Sure that thing hits like a train but the gun handling and reload are awful. Throw ontop a much much worse turret and gg. Bad tank imo. Sure it can perform, but condense it into the T32 with the other benefits for a much stronger all-rounder. T34 is just gun. That's it. That isn't flexible, you might as well play a TD.

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Fixed it up a bit, now 7/10 for professional harassers (still not 50 100 levels of greatness of course).

The fact that you changed your rating in light of an uproar instead of defending your standpoint is basically an admission that you had no idea what you were talking about the first time.

 

T34 > FCM fixed (might just be my impression that in a fast tank I really need to be moving and harassing everywhere whereas T34 life is more simplistic and relaxing... particularly the wait for the not-so-badly-bloomed gun to aim in)

 

Tanks you've ranked as worse than the T34: KV-4, KV-5, T32

 

Especially that T32

  

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I guess you forgot your bad player days where you were constantly looking to not run dry on credits? Yes, in case you've forgotten, for pubbies without premium account, unlike you or I, ammo cost really matters. Stingy asses like me also give a shit about ammo cost unless driving a premium tank (read: my SP driving experiences, few as they were).

No, I never had the issue of running dry on credits, all it took was not to play like a brain-dead chimpanzee.

If you are balancing on ammo cost, WG would like to hire you.

 

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Tiger II vs T32... the latter is a bully tank with inadequate pen, the former is pretty average in all ways... but can actually go through most Tier 9s/10s frontally SOMEWHERE or other (I hereby commit the sin of thinking most pubbies can learn shooting LFPs by tier 8) without costing more than 4K credits a pop.

Inadequate pen + Gold ammo = Decent Tank

Average tank = gets fucked by everything it meets

 

O look, I got raged on last time for saying IS-6 was grossly OP, and a bunch of people yelled at me about how 112 can be abused further. Make up your damned mind.

You will note that most said the 112 could be used better, and that the IS-6 wasn't OP.

"112 is better" means "112 is better", "IS6 isnt OP" means "IS6 isn't OP"

Neither of those has ever meant "112 is better than the IS-6" (hint: because it isn't)

 

Ferdi = bully tank, ISU/JP2 = still good when bottom tier but have glaring flaws (Ferdi isn't THAT slow), therefore, JP2/ISU > Ferdi, but not by too much.

Ferdi = Bully tank, complete garbage when bottom tier, complete garbage against anything fast, can't flex, can

The JP2 is a straight upgrade to the Ferdinand in every way but gun arc and depression, better armor, better firepower, and grossly better mobility. If you think the advantage the JP2 has over the Ferdi is "not by too much", you are an idiot.

There isn't a single good player who would ever recommend the Ferdi as a good TD, yet the JP2 is widely considered the BEST tier 8 TD bar the Borsig and possibly the ISU.

 

Fuck, I would play an Milan 48 over the Ferdi, at least I would look like a masochist who wants to play a piece of shit instead of an idiot who couldn't pick the obviously better tank.

 

AT 15 = extreme bully tank if not a total noobtard. With camo nerfs, survivability matters, a lot.

You have got to be fucking kidding me right?

Here's what you've argued:

AT15 > JP2

AT 15 > ISU

Here's what good players typically consider the top 3 T8 TDs: Borsig, ISU, JP2. The gulf between those three and anything else is humongous.

 

You, sir, are raging at anyone not an already overinflated ego daring to talk. I recommend you stop, because Garbad was a laughingstock at one point too.

Stuff you've completely and utterly failed to address:

110 = IS-3

Panther 2 > All APCR M26

Cent 1 > All APCR M26

Panther 2 = T-44 = Cent 1

Super Pershing = M26

Either stop ignoring the fights you know you'll lose, or concede that you don't know what you are talking about.

P.S. "APCR is too expensive" is an excuse, not an argument.

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I can live with having to aim a little longer and reload a little slower in exchange for not having to suffer with 198mm of pen and 0.41 accuracy. The superior dpm and gun handling of the T32 is worth jack shit if it can't even reliably pen, let alone hit the weakspots of, a lot of the tanks it faces. The poor maneuverability of the T34 can be countered by running gasoline, which is doable since it rarely catches fire. The T32 may have had a heyday, but that time is long gone.

 

With full crew, BiA, vents & food the accuracy is just fine. Consider you should be very close range the accuracy is a moot point. The strengths of the vehicle lie with the other characteristics. It's a baddie argument to base your opinion on the t32 purely around the gun. The t34 is a huge target, it's turret is garbage and can be penned by anything with .36 accuracy and higher. The improved alpha/pen of the t34 is countered by the poor platform it is on imo.

 

Plus if penetrating is the only downside, run a lot of gold. The only problem solved? Congratulations your tank is now better than the T34. Most of the arguments on the t32 being bad center around the gun but all of the shortcomings are easily addressed.

 

You cannot address the turret size, poor mobility & poor gun handling of the t34 much in comparison.

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I don't think you know how to play. Your arguments are still just as wrong. 

 

It makes me wonder about the OP's experience.  As wrong as many of his ratings may be, they could be correct from a certain point of view.  If he's utterly incapable of utilizing mobility, I can see him rating the JPII and Ferdi as similar.  I can see him overrating occasionally bouncy meds like the PII.  

 

I've seen many players tell me that the T49 (or whatever it is called now) is a terrible tank.  For them, it's absolutely true.  For me, it's an OP pubharvester.  

 

In short, OP is comparing floors, while most of us look at ceilings.  It's an interesting perspective, and one that might be useful for low-average skilled players.

 

 

 

Anyway - my theory is that a lot of people are remembering the good old days when Tier 8s almost never had to deal with Tier 9 and 10 tanks, and they're entirely forgetting being stuck in a Tier 6 tank having to deal with a Type 59 running them down every other match.  Before there's this big "Bring Back BT12" campaign, I'd like to see that there's an actual problem with Tier 8 getting stuck at bottom tier any more than any other tier does.

 

 

If this were about the good old days (from my perspective) I'd be arguing that the Ferdi should be an 8-9, and that the Lowe should be at least a 7.  Type 59 would be 11/10, and the T23 would get high marks.

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The T32 is one of the most balanced vehicles in the game. It doesn't need changing.

 

I'd take my T32 out over my T34 anyday. Sure that thing hits like a train but the gun handling and reload are awful. Throw ontop a much much worse turret and gg. Bad tank imo. Sure it can perform, but condense it into the T32 with the other benefits for a much stronger all-rounder. T34 is just gun. That's it. That isn't flexible, you might as well play a TD.

I can live with having to aim a little longer and reload a little slower in exchange for not having to suffer with 198mm of pen and 0.41 accuracy. The superior dpm and gun handling of the T32 is worth jack shit if it can't even reliably pen, let alone hit the weakspots of, a lot of the tanks it faces. The poor maneuverability of the T34 can be countered by running gasoline, which is doable since it rarely catches fire. The T32 may have had a heyday, but that time is long gone.

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I can live with having to aim a little longer and reload a little slower in exchange for not having to suffer with 198mm of pen and 0.41 accuracy. The superior dpm and gun handling of the T32 is worth jack shit if it can't even reliably pen, let alone hit the weakspots of, a lot of the tanks it faces. The poor maneuverability of the T34 can be countered by running gasoline, which is doable since it rarely catches fire. The T32 may have had a heyday, but that time is long gone.

T32 is one of my highest avg exp tanks and an above 60% solo win rate. There is a reason it is still used in competitive play.
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T32 is one of my highest avg exp tanks and an above 60% solo win rate. There is a reason it is still used in competitive play.

Cause its hard as shit, has DPM, and isn't slow as hell?

 

I mean... you can pen tier 10s frontally with the T34 a lot easier... but with aimtime plus reload plus probably not ideal situation...

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A lot of rambling in this poast. Biggest issues that jumped out at me (I didn't read it thoroughly 7 times, I read it quickly once): You failed to address the biggest issue with the T28, the fact that its advertised frontal armor is ONLY behind the gun mantlet, not the whole front plate, as it should be. The T34-2 has reasonable gun depression, enough to go hull down if your know what you're doing. It's in fact comparable to the 62A, but without the RoF or epic gun handling (IMO, if you're using the 122mm, you're gonna have a bad time, 100mm master race). The ceiling on the 34-3 seems to actually be fairly high, but even the skill floor for it is out of the reach of most players. That said, it is obviously outclassed by the 59, but since some of us are retarded and didn't buy it when we had the chance because we were drooling nublet pubbies ourselves when it was on sale, the 34-3 is not as painful as many think it is. The IS-3 isn't OP, pubbies are stupid. IS-3 is extremely easy to deal with, most people are just too stupid to shoot at its weakspots, since they arent in the obvious default weak spot locations. I would even say the 110 is a more powerful tank these days, due do its armor being better, and is only let down a bit by its low alpha.

 

I personally have a super-manly love affair with the Panther 2, and don't ask me why, I couldn't tell you. It is not the best of the tier 8 meds, but I do extremely well in it.

 

The T69 ceiling is just as high as it always was, all the HEAT nerf really did was raise the floor. I still make it works it's magic like it could before, in fact I do it better now than when I first played it, because I'm a much better player now than I was then.

 

I'm sure there are other glaring issues, these are just the ones that jumped out.

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With full crew, BiA, vents & food the accuracy is just fine. Consider you should be very close range the accuracy is a moot point. The strengths of the vehicle lie with the other characteristics. It's a baddie argument to base your opinion on the t32 purely around the gun. The t34 is a huge target, it's turret is garbage and can be penned by anything with .36 accuracy and higher. The improved alpha/pen of the t34 is countered by the poor platform it is on imo.

 

Plus if penetrating is the only downside, run a lot of gold. The only problem solved? Congratulations your tank is now better than the T34. Most of the arguments on the t32 being bad center around the gun but all of the shortcomings are easily addressed.

 

You cannot address the turret size, poor mobility & poor gun handling of the t34 much in comparison.

A lot of close range fights occur in places where there are limited opportunities to go hull down. Additionally, I found that the T32 is too short to effectively use certain hull down rocks. While its gun handling is relatively good, it's not enough to peek-a-boom against well armored enemies. In the time it takes to aim, shoot, and bounce/miss a shot at the copula of a sidescraping tiger II, he will have casually put a shot into the tumor on top of your turret. While it might excell in organized play where it will only face tier 8 tanks, It performs terribly against higher tier tanks. The one way I could make this tank work was using the stock 90mm gun with gold ammo, that at least could guarantee a pen against anything I would face in pubs. Still, it cost a fortune to run so I ended up free xping the rest of the way to the m103.

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