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HE shell rework and stunning

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Isn't there a 'saving throw' for critical hits?  I'm not saying I'm on board for the whole HE stun thing, but if a saving throw system was initiated wouldn't that mitigate the problem somewhat?

 

 

There is a saving throw for criticals.

 

I think the stunning mechanic will have some of the following rules

 

-minimum damage required

-saving throws, more chance than criticals, but less than 100%

-minimum distance from the shell hit (example, people rant about 57mm spam ideas while 57mm HE shell has blast radius of 66cm ant that cant even reach most crew members or even more ridiculous, 37mm HE from T1 cuningham, has 31cm blast radius)

 

Calm your tities people, we might finally get usable HE shells good for something other than occasional WT murder.

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I asked earlier, what role would spall liner serve in this?

 

 

Probably the same one as it does now, it would reduce the chance of critical/stun by x%.

 

Note also that there might be some crew skills in the following crew skill revoke that will maybe address stun probability and/or duration, but like everything else i wrote it is pure speculation based on the logic of improving the game without drasticly changing it.

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lel

 

I have to agree with your speculation, and HE working right would be a good thing.

Making a spall line more useful is a good thing IMHO.

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I'm sure there will be a saving throw, I still think stunning is a bad idea, particularly if it happens to be heavily RNG based. It also depends on how they implement the idea of course but I can't see a way of doing it that wouldn't be deeply irritating (with the exception of completely removing crew injury from HE and replacing that with the stunning mechanic).

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I'm sure there will be a saving throw, I still think stunning is a bad idea, particularly if it happens to be heavily RNG based. It also depends on how they implement the idea of course but I can't see a way of doing it that wouldn't be deeply irritating (with the exception of completely removing crew injury from HE and replacing that with the stunning mechanic).

Whats the purpuose of crew if they cant die? Whats the purpuose of HE if it does fracton of damage with questionable benefits?

HE went from bad to horible with last revoke, it got a bit use with introduction of paper tanks but its stll a novelty.

I like variety and diversity, if it gives me more options to deal with infinite number of situations ill adapt because it just might make the game that much more challenging and thus interesting to play.

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There's another thread on here about the SturmTiger and it's 380 mm gun, like the 152 mm, 183 mm, 128 mm, and 170 mm, all big bore guns would have a higher chances to stun.  Wondering if they plan to introduce these changes with the possible introduction of the Sturm Tiger.

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Quite bold and harsh statement about a, 3 year old, multi million $$ game with huge player base that is still growing. Hard to believe they would achieve that with only wrong decisions or even mostly wrong decisions.

 

As for 430 and its siblings i dont want to start another conversaiton about them, i have a strong feeling you will not provide the most objective reasons for their mythological strengths.

 

The most obvious decisions WG makes have a (bad) tendency to be seen negatively by a lot of people on NA at least, and at least pratly on EU:

 

Exhibit A: Japanese Tanks before EU Tree. Admittedly it makes business sense, but the butthurt from the Swedes (Stridsvagn 103) and Czechs (Panzer 68), not to mention the AMX-30 or Firefly mob, was INCREDIBLY LOUD.

 

Exhibit B: WTF100, Tier 8-10 on that line... we knew it was going to be cancer.

 

Exhibit C: Foch 155 line tier 8-10 over-nerf: Even the AC 48 ended up getting over-nerfed in gun handling. That tank has more bloom from traversing the gun alone than Tiger II turning the tracks if wiki is to be believed. As for Foch... why the hell did they even bother nerfing it? No one EVER complained Tier 9 Foch was OP. Admittedly 155 was over-performing, but they could easily have left Foch alone by explaining the worse traverse and other stats on the 155 by "more front-heavy gun" since Foch 155 was a mostly paper project IIRC. Not to mention the HEAT mechanics nerf did hurt the unreliable/derpy Foch 155 gun quite a bit (that case was warranted, but stacked on the side armour nerf to auto-pen by all heavies the 155 sank beneath the yoke).

 

Exhibit D: Artypocalypse -- while we all agree it was necessary, it made low tier arty just about completely useless unless you are OCD about gambling and slot machines, and high tier arty remains as irritating as ever. Now it requires, amazingly, almost less skill than it used to, because the RNG is even bigger than it used to be. Even unicums, post-8.6, were angry that the nerf to arty was "less skill, more RNG". Granted, the bloom nerf was good, and so was the aim time nerf, but fully aimed in accuracy and splash or lack thereof makes high tier arty still annoyingly strong while low tier arty requires masochism and not caring about one's win rate, because no matter how much you aim in or how perfectly you lead a target you WILL miss if RNGesus says so... They nerfed skill and buffed luck, perfect for tomatoes and potatoes, makes it even more hated by teal and above -_-

 

Exhibit E: T-34-3, we all knew it was going to end up pretty bad, because it lacks DPM, gun handling and lacks gun depression, which means no brawling (hull armour is inadequate to mitigate DPM problems), and abusing the turret is also difficult due to lack of depression. Now that Chinese HEAT is nerfed to 250 with the mechanics nerf as well, that's not very helpful either to compensate.

 

Exhibit F: Super Pershing nerf. It was perfectly fine before and no one ever whined about it being OP, now most people hate it.

 

There are many other exhibits but I'll save your time on those. Yes, I admit I exaggerated slightly on "Expect them to screw up everything in the most hilarious way possible". I should have said "Expect them to make a PR debacle of almost everything and/or screw it up in some amusing fashion." Thank you for pointing out the hyperbole.

 

As for the strength of tanks, any tank that provides a good balance of firepower, mobility and protection with one exceptional thing will be powerful. If it has a sturdy turret with good gun bloom, sufficient pen and acceleration, that's a recipe for a terrain abuser, which can be used to very high potential by greens and above. E-50M is strong as it has good compromise of the traits, for example. M48 lacks protection, as well as now being average in firepower (since the FV4202 and Leo DPM buffs) and sub-par in mobility (compared to 50M, Soviets, and Bat/Leo...). The Soviets have good protection (among mediums that is, only 50M beats them here, and even that is debatable due to soft turret on 50M), okay mobility (above FV4202 and Patton, below Leo/Bat, same level as 121 and 50M as the 50M has straight line speed instead of agility...), and good firepower (superior DPM, gun comfort, high shell speed with APCR). So, they did not need to buff 430 because it was still at least above average for Tier 10 mediums. I would prefer if they buffed the Americans instead by putting M60A1 on Tier 10, M48A1 on Tier 9, so that they face historical opponents and are balanced against them (everyone tries to make vehicles as OP against the previous generation of tanks as possible, so if both are OP vs the end-40s to mid-50s tanks... M60A1 and T-62 should be put against each other), but that would never happen, so there's no point thinking on it too much.

 

Now, I'm hoping that the HE mechanics will be as you suggest, otherwise they might end up emptying the forums for a month or so with ROs due to the sheer amount of outrage from there when they're testing this and the amount of "WTFBBQSAUCE HAVE YOU IDIOTS IN MINSK DONE" from said testers. However, occasional doomsaying does help prepare the masses in case the outcome is less good than we might hope.

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The most obvious decisions WG makes have a (bad) tendency to be seen negatively by a lot of people on NA at least, and at least pratly on EU:

 

 

I never considered forum posters as playerbase "pulse", Forum posters are usually really loud individuals who deal only with extremes, usually bad extremes. The only indicator of WG choices is player-base size and activity, both growing for quite some time now so yeah...

 

A: If nation A gets introduced, nations B, C... will complain why not them. Nothing wg can do about it unless they introduce every fucking nation at the same time.

B: With exception of tier 10, that line is IMO ok, it fills the niche of glass canons, never had problems with them, even with tier 10.

C, D: (and every ballance discussion ever): This game is not designed for good players, and thus balance is designed for your average wot pubie. We, the cream of players, on this forum make for, at most, 3% of the playerbase, do you really think they will tailor game to our liking?

E: Its a premium tank, its supposed to suck, if you dont like it dont buy it.

F: see E

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I never considered forum posters as playerbase "pulse", Forum posters are usually really loud individuals who deal only with extremes, usually bad extremes. The only indicator of WG choices is player-base size and activity, both growing for quite some time now so yeah...

 

A: If nation A gets introduced, nations B, C... will complain why not them. Nothing wg can do about it unless they introduce every fucking nation at the same time.

B: With exception of tier 10, that line is IMO ok, it fills the niche of glass canons, never had problems with them, even with tier 10.

C, D: (and every ballance discussion ever): This game is not designed for good players, and thus balance is designed for your average wot pubie. We, the cream of players, on this forum make for, at most, 3% of the playerbase, do you really think they will tailor game to our liking?

E: Its a premium tank, its supposed to suck, if you dont like it dont buy it.

F: see E

 

Honestly, you're quite right that we're mostly angry nerds raging over nothing, Exhibit A for that being EchelonIII, the most miserable lifeform I've ever seen express itself. His commentary on my threads is a prime example of the sort of rage I'd expect from a certain deceased dictator whenever Jewish people are brought up in conversation howler monkey. (Right, should try to avoid the internet rule--I forget the number of the rule--about comparisons to Him inevitably popping up.)

 

Yeah, this game is deigned for pubbies. Why is it then that every time I make a post about Tier 8 balance everyone wails on me because I, as a pubbie, found Panther II better than non-APCR Pershing (Pershing APCR is expensive for the pubbies without premium account, and no more ammo sales these days either...)? Apparently Pershing is borderline OP according to the crazies on this website just because it can shoot 268 pen APCR at 4400 creds a pop.

 

Premium tanks being intended to suck... yeah by the stats the IS-6 is the most powerful Tier 8 heavy, probably due to Battle Tier 12 removal and its limited MM compared to the others, but regardless it's pretty annoyingly strong for a premium tier 8, at least for the pubbies who must fight it. They also refuse to nerf Type 59 to historical gundep (-4) and leave it at -7, despite being clearly better than most of the non-premium Tier 8 mediums AND getting limited MM. They coudl easily ahve nerfed it and returned to selling it. Yeah I don't buy that WG policy one bit.

 

The rage over the Scorpion stats leak a couple weeks back was also rather hilarious. Tier 8 for THAT thing... LMFAO.

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Honestly, you're quite right that we're mostly angry nerds raging over nothing, Exhibit A for that being EchelonIII, the most miserable lifeform I've ever seen express itself. His commentary on my threads is a prime example of the sort of rage I'd expect from a certain deceased dictator whenever Jewish people are brought up in conversation howler monkey. (Right, should try to avoid the internet rule--I forget the number of the rule--about comparisons to Him inevitably popping up.)

 

Yeah, this game is deigned for pubbies. Why is it then that every time I make a post about Tier 8 balance everyone wails on me because I, as a pubbie, found Panther II better than non-APCR Pershing (Pershing APCR is expensive for the pubbies without premium account, and no more ammo sales these days either...)? Apparently Pershing is borderline OP according to the crazies on this website just because it can shoot 268 pen APCR at 4400 creds a pop.

 

Premium tanks being intended to suck... yeah by the stats the IS-6 is the most powerful Tier 8 heavy, probably due to Battle Tier 12 removal and its limited MM compared to the others, but regardless it's pretty annoyingly strong for a premium tier 8, at least for the pubbies who must fight it. They also refuse to nerf Type 59 to historical gundep (-4) and leave it at -7, despite being clearly better than most of the non-premium Tier 8 mediums AND getting limited MM. They coudl easily ahve nerfed it and returned to selling it. Yeah I don't buy that WG policy one bit.

 

The rage over the Scorpion stats leak a couple weeks back was also rather hilarious. Tier 8 for THAT thing... LMFAO.

 

Right, because that was the only reason you got wailed on...

 

your-high-horse.jpg

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Yeah, this game is deigned for pubbies. Why is it then that every time I make a post about Tier 8 balance everyone wails on me because I, as a pubbie, found Panther II better than non-APCR Pershing (Pershing APCR is expensive for the pubbies without premium account, and no more ammo sales these days either...)? Apparently Pershing is borderline OP according to the crazies on this website just because it can shoot 268 pen APCR at 4400 creds a pop.

 

Well, pershing is better for high end play (stroNg turret, great depression, insane APCR). I also fun P2 more fun to play, but ultimatly pershing is a better tank (note that i shoot less than 1% gold and i drove p2 way way way in the past)

 

Premium tanks being intended to suck... yeah by the stats the IS-6 is the most powerful Tier 8 heavy, probably due to Battle Tier 12 removal and its limited MM compared to the others, but regardless it's pretty annoyingly strong for a premium tier 8, at least for the pubbies who must fight it. They also refuse to nerf Type 59 to historical gundep (-4) and leave it at -7, despite being clearly better than most of the non-premium Tier 8 mediums AND getting limited MM. They coudl easily ahve nerfed it and returned to selling it. Yeah I don't buy that WG policy one bit.

 

Note that all great premium tanks have pref matchmaking, in reality they are nothing special, the opponents you get, are. And i dont have to explain you why type will never be touched, i also dont have to explain why some tanks will not get their historical values (god or bad)

 

The rage over the Scorpion stats leak a couple weeks back was also rather hilarious. Tier 8 for THAT thing... LMFAO.

 

I make a rule, not to discuss supertest stats, thy backfire more often than not.

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Right, because that was the only reason you got wailed on...

 

your-high-horse.jpg

 

I'm aware Pershing is better for high-end play, just FYI. I suppose my opinion of it is due to never completely grinding a tank. I only do dailies (AMX 50 120 was an exception, during on-track) in tanks, so I don't accumulate as many credits as many others and still have to buy new tanks regularly, so I had a habit of saving credits as much as possible, and watching the numbers tick red every time I have a loss... *sees red*.

 

Why are you not showing a pegasus knight for real high horses? :P

 

 

 

 

 

Glad to meet someone else who finds P2 a better experience when playing. I loathed my Lorraine 40t but loved E50 and T-54, but the stats I have in them would say otherwise...

 

Yeah, the opponents make the tank, and I know Type is never gonna get balanced, glad there aren't too many anymore.

 

That's a good rule for WG creations

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This will help all the sub 45% HE 122mm russian gun slingers. With the current HE mechanics, I still do fine. T49 is so hilarious atm. Hitting engine decks and arses for 900 is great.

Can they buff normal HE without buffing the arty HE?

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This will help all the sub 45% HE 122mm russian gun slingers. With the current HE mechanics, I still do fine. T49 is so hilarious atm. Hitting engine decks and arses for 900 is great.

Can they buff normal HE without buffing the arty HE?

 

Sadly no, high tier arty is going to be even more bullshit than now, and since low tier (2-5) arty lack the splash to stun except on direct hits, it won't be much less useless either.

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Sounds like an interesting idea, but ripe for abuse.  I could make this a great 215b/Chieftain/4202 HESH CW tactic, and stake some clown to the ground while the autos reload.

 

That said, when you "kill" the driver, now, you still can drive.

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This will help all the sub 45% HE 122mm russian gun slingers. With the current HE mechanics, I still do fine. T49 is so hilarious atm. Hitting engine decks and arses for 900 is great.

Can they buff normal HE without buffing the arty HE?

 

 

Sadly no, high tier arty is going to be even more bullshit than now, and since low tier (2-5) arty lack the splash to stun except on direct hits, it won't be much less useless either.

 

Of course they can.  Different guns use different shells, I'm pretty sure the guns that mount on the SPG's don't mount on regular tanks (the TD guns are certainly different models for the same tier and caliber).  Applying this change to specific shells only would easily allow them to apply this mechanic only to guns that do not mount on SPG's, and not to guns that do.

 

I'm looking on the wiki to confirm this - none of the Gun lists show any SPG guns.  I'm guessing that means none of the SPG guns appear on any tanks (in the absence of clearer evidence).

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Of course they can.  Different guns use different shells, I'm pretty sure the guns that mount on the SPG's don't mount on regular tanks (the TD guns are certainly different models for the same tier and caliber).  Applying this change to specific shells only would easily allow them to apply this mechanic only to guns that do not mount on SPG's, and not to guns that do.

 

I'm looking on the wiki to confirm this - none of the Gun lists show any SPG guns.  I'm guessing that means none of the SPG guns appear on any tanks (in the absence of clearer evidence).

 

Take a good look, friend, the shells are all classed as HE, even HESH shells. That tell you they use the same mechanics. And THAT is the problem.

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Take a good look, friend, the shells are all classed as E, even HESH shells. That tell you they use the same mechanics. And THAT is the problem.

What he is saying is that they could separate them. By having the arty guns use different shells than other tanks. They would effectively need to create an additional class of shells to do that though.

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What he is saying is that they could separate them. By having the arty guns use different shells than other tanks. They would effectively need to create an additional class of shells to do that though.

 

Given Wargaming didn't create separate HESH mechanics even KNOWING that historically they worked nothing like HE, while arty HE and tank HE are both simple contact fuses... I find your incredible optimism slightly disturbing ;)

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Rebalance? Yes. HE is too unreliable, even against 'soft' targets like the Borsig.

 

Stunning? No. The winners would be the high DPM tanks like the Russian meds that would spam HE to 'stun' a tank indefinitely (or almost) yet have the flexibility to switch ammo types (autoloaders don't do this well, IMO it would be foolish loading a clip of HE even with stuns on).

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Rebalance? Yes. HE is too unreliable, even against 'soft' targets like the Borsig.

 

Stunning? No. The winners would be the high DPM tanks like the Russian meds that would spam HE to 'stun' a tank indefinitely (or almost) yet have the flexibility to switch ammo types (autoloaders don't do this well, IMO it would be foolish loading a clip of HE even with stuns on).

 

Russkimediumbias?

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