High Tier Altitude and Dispersion

[bandet 12]

Bandet, on 28 October 2014 - 10:51 AM, said:

I feel that the removal of the increased upwards gun dispersion was a bad idea.

 

It had it's issues, but the important thing to remember here is that this game isn't meant to be realistic, it's an arcade representation of aerial combat. It had it's issues, but what it did do was solve a larger issue that was caused by the same mechanics.

 

I'm going to discuss what exactly it was, what implications it had, why it was removed, and why it needs to come back, in a different form.

 

What was it?

 

This image demonstrates what it was.

 

 

When angled upwards, decreased your accuracy.... quite significantly.

 

Why did they do this?

 

 

Basically, it's just another mechanic that is designed to compensate for the irregularities of compressed altitude.

 

Think of it like this:

1. You can't go as high as you would be able to in reality.
2. Bullets, more or less, have the same effective ranges that they might in reality.

 

This caused issues. A plane above you would be limited to how high it can go, but you could go straight up, and then be able to shoot the target in a most unrealistic manner.

 

The upwards gun dispersion was intended to accomplish two things:

1. SIMULATE bullets having decreased range when pointed straight up (you know, gravity exists)
2. Give protection to a higher plane that would normally be unreachable, but with compressed altitude couldn't escape.

 

Now, NORMALLY, this wasn't a big deal in lower tiers (below 8 or so), because someone could climb high enough that people lower couldn't get in gun range due to relative climb rates being lower, but it becomes a BIG issue in higher tiers 9+. Most people aren't aware of this because:

1. They don't have a high tier.
2. They never get to play their high tier due to population

 

Read this thread for an example:

http://forum.worldofwarplanes.com/index.php?/topic/34219-the-altitude-hard-cap/page__pid__482338#entry482338

 

Let me summarize the issue. Basically...

1. The climb rates of higher tier planes increased exponentially.
2. The optimal altitudes for said planes increased linearly.

 

So, what happens is that I can literally be at 1k altitude in my HG2, and I can fly nearly straight up to an enemy plane at 4k altitude, and while I would probably stall out at around 3.5k or so, I would get a nearly perfect shot since that person so high cannot move at all, and they are flying slow.

 

The above thread is concerned with energy fighter vs energy fighter combat. NOT energy fighter versus BnZ fighter combat. In the current game, a lot of the time the high-tier energy fighter flying at a lower altitude actually has an advantage due to being able to shoot upwards with no penalty, and exponentially decreased performance at high altitude.

 

The upwards gun dispersion fixed that.

 

But now, you can't, and it makes the game play a bit off. 

 

Why was it removed?

 

Really, it solved a lot of conceptual issues with the altitude compression, but it generated a few more.

 

The big reason:

The rate at which your gun dispersion increased relative to your angle of attack was too fast.

 

 

Not only did pointing up even slightly increase your dispersion, but pointing down INCREASED it. Again, this was to simulate gravity, and bullets shooting down would have a greater effective range.

 

Implications:

 

Two planes going in a head on, one is about 100m higher than the other, so it is pointed down, the other is pointed up.

 

 

What happens is the plane that is just 100m higher ends up doing about 2 or 3 times the damage as the other plane, which is kinda dumb.

 

The little reasons: 

1. Players thought it was unrealistic because they couldn't comprehend it's interaction with compressed altitude, It was actually more realistic.
2. Chasing the target straight up and shooting until you stall is a common "nub" maneuver. The mechanic penalized bad play (so it penalized the majority)

 

How to improve on the system:

 

 

Basically angling up at only 40 degrees should not really lower your damage, but aiming up at 90 degrees SHOULD.

 

 

Re-add it, but make it more of an exponential curve.

 

Why:

 

This will make high tiers more playable, because it will compensate for the problem described before (http://forum.worldofwarplanes.com/index.php?/topic/34219-the-altitude-hard-cap/page__pid__482338#entry482338) which is a result of compressed altitude and very high climb rates.

 

Higher tier aircraft can't actually fly at high altitudes without the threat of someone from the deck blowing all their boost to fly straight up under you and take you out when you physically cannot react.

 

Now, let me clarify one thing. 

 

Endgame, clan wars, all that jazz will ultimately revolve around high tiers, so gameplay needs to be designed with that in mind. 

 

Also new gun dispersion doesn't really affect lower tiers. When you are flying high, and someone tries to climb straight up at you, you can physically climb higher. Since you can do that, people don't currently try to. They know it's a wasted effort. That's why changing the gun dispersion in this manner won't overly affect lower tier gameplay, while helping higher tier. 

 

How it will improve transitions for new players:

 

The overall reason the altitude bands by nation were implemented was because of jagged plane transitions that threw off new players. A perfect example would be the J4M1 back in beta. Back then, players went through 6 tiers of TnB planes, and then all of a sudden got the J4M1 at tier 7. They tried to fly it like all the other planes in the tier and failed miserably because the J4M1 was not a TNB plane, it was the single energy fighter in a TnB line... and they didn't know how to fly an energy fighter.

 

While I may not agree with the national altitude bands, I can understand the logic. The bands were created with new players in mind. They wanted every plane in a line to fly more or less the same so they didn't have to completely re-learn their game every time they got a new plane.

 

This change accomplishes a similar task. Currently, playing an energy fighter up till about tier 8 is all about the vertical BnZ. Once you hit tier 9, the vertical field becomes restricted by altitude caps, and you have to change to horizontal BnZ instead. While it isn't a really big deal for a pilot like me to adapt, the common player has issues. The same thing happens as with the J4M1, they have to learn a completely new game at tier 9 or get blown out of the sky.

 

Why do this instead of something else to fix the high-tier altitude problem?

The real problem is that you cannot tweak high tier's altitude caps, because it can potentially make planes incredibly powerful. One of the main pros of WoWP over WoT is that lower tiers actually have a chance versus higher tiers, because they can damage them and outmaneuver them since lower tiers turn tighter. At low tiers, the tier spread is fine and you can do well when stuck in a tier 6 game as a tier 4. However, there is such a jarring difference in performance between tier 7 and 9 and 8 and 10 that it is already getting close to broken.

 

You simply cannot allow these planes to fly higher and still hope to have a reasonable fun game for all parties unless you make high tiers with 1-tier spread, which would make them unplayable because the population simply cannot support exclusively tier 10 matches.

 

Changing upwards dispersion would solve this altitude issue at high tiers without changing any planes performances.

 

 

from: http://forum.worldofwarplanes.com/index.php?/topic/34222-upwards-gun-dispersion/page__pid__482433#entry482433

 

/discuss

 

 

[OOPMan 1,266]

I like how you gloss over the fact that most people don't have a high tier plane and never will due to the server population issues making it an exercise in scarification to unlock said high tier planes without using free XP...

 

I think whatever high-tier altitude problem there is, is largely irrelevant when you consider just how dead the WoWP NA population is.

 

if you want to advise something be done about WoWP then how about starting with fixing the god-awful we're-flying-through-ether thing the game has going. 

[bandet 12]

I like how you gloss over the fact that most people don't have a high tier plane and never will due to the server population issues making it an exercise in scarification to unlock said high tier planes without using free XP...

 

I think whatever high-tier altitude problem there is, is largely irrelevant when you consider just how dead the WoWP NA population is.

 

if you want to advise something be done about WoWP then how about starting with fixing the god-awful we're-flying-through-ether thing the game has going. 

 

Really good post bro, turned something constructive into simply whining about the game. good job.

[OOPMan 1,266]

Yeah, I know. I was tired, not a high point :-/

 

You're idea is sound enough but I really is just pissing in the wind given the current state of WoWP and it doesn't make me happy to say that...

[OOPMan 1,266]

Going to add that after playing WoWP again today altitude band system really is just dumb and whoever thought they'd help new players is a retard...

[OOPMan 1,266]

So yeah, your idea is pretty sound Bandet.

 

But having spent some time with WT lately (And don't get me started on how flawed that game is) I honestly think the biggest thing WG could do to fix WoWP is get rid of altitude bounds and this compressed altitude bullshit entirely because it simply does not work (For a number of reasons, including the fact that even though altitude is compressed the weaponry ranges don't seem to be as compressed). It forces you to get high or die and most of the time the former results in your aircraft flying like a brick which is just not even remotely fun.

 

Honestly, I think that when Persha were designing WoWP someone on their team basically decided that in order for their game to stand out it could not possibly be like WT in any way and hence they made a bunch of game mechanic decisions that were just really fucking dumb. Gaijin did the same thing with WTGF, which just goes to show that hind-sight is only 20-20 if you bother to use your eyes.

 

I guess we can only hope that when WG central take a good long look at WoWP they'll actually try to fix these things because if they don't their grand scheme of unified CW between WoT, WoWP and WoWS will flounder.

[bandet 12]

Compressed altitude is simply designed to make the matches faster.

 

No one wants to spend time climbing to the moon.

 

Also, compare it to War Thunder Arcade (which is pretty much the same game, without altitude compression). Everyone is lawnmowing because they either cannot climb or don't want to. Also, they don't climb because it's all about getting as many kills as possible quickly as possible, which is also true in WoWP.

 

Since everyone is at low altitude, high altitude planes end up bein' kinda sucky since you never really get to use your advantages... which is just the same situation but in reverse, as in solving one problem and fixing another. Nothing gained.

 

WARGAMING wants it to be an e-sport. No one will watch if people are spending 30 minutes climbing before they get there.

 

I think the compressed altitude is fine (and it's waaaay too late to change it so don't bother...) but it's quirky so we need to fix problems with it as they present themselves.

[bandet 12]

Something I said in a different thread on the same subject.

 

 

Dispersion, an unrealistic mechanic, is simulating a REALISTIC mechanic.

 

Realistic

Bullets fired straight up have less kinetic energy because [mathy wathy projectile motion stuff].

Bullets fired straight up do less damage.

Weapons that fire upwards do less DPS.

 

Arcade

Bullets fired straight up have more dispersion because [mathy wathy code stuff]

Bullets fired straight up have a less chance of hitting the target.

Weapons that fire upwards do less DPS.

 

 

Dispersion accomplishes the same end result. 

 

The game isn't supposed to be realistic, but an arcade simulation of realistic concepts.

Realistic concept: Firing upwards is less effective than firing downwards.

This concept can be represented in game by increased dispersion when aiming upwards, and decreased dispersion while aiming downwards.

 

End Result: The game ultimately works how it's supposed to. 

[Antiledo 64]

I don't have much to offer other than I agree with your assessment and I think your solution is a great starting point.

 

Many people forget (or don't know) how gameplay and the game's mechanics break down above tier 8. Or at tier 8 if you are flying the 262.

[OOPMan 1,266]

Break-down if you're playing for a 262 or against one?

 

:-)

[OOPMan 1,266]

So, on the subject of compressed altitude my comparison of WT to WoWP is thus:

 

WoWP:

• Altitude is heavily compressed
• However, weapon ranges are less compressed...
• And the lead indicator takes ping into account...
• Which means that hitting people at 600m is not hard :-)
• Plane speeds don't seem to be particularly compressed at all...
• Which means that it's incredibly easy to escape your altitude band...
• Which turns your aircraft into a flying brick :-(
• Never mind that aircraft control in general seems to be a lot more sluggish (Hence my comment about flying through aether)
• Altitude bands are very much nation-based...
• Which basically pigeon-holes nations in the game...
• But, because of altitude compression those aircraft with certain altitude bands have a huge advantage over others...
• Ie. US & DE BnZ heavies and fighters > all
• Basically, in WoWP, it is, has and maybe always will be high-alt BnZ or GTFO
• Which frankly stinks, they might as well just remove the TnB planes and the GA

WT:

• Altitude is uncompressed!
• Hitting targets beyond 300m is tricky, especially with high ping
• You can climb or dive insofar as your plane allows!
• Great!
• ...Except
• Bombers get their own spawn spot that provides a 2km or so altitude advantage
• Gaining height takes time...
• Time that bombers spend flying away from you when you try to catch them...
• By the time you catch said bombers, they've already bombed your team mostly into submission...
• Maybe if you're lucky you can take out 1 or 2 before their crack-shot gunners nuke you...
• At which point you need to rinse and repeat...
• Or just say fuck it and zip around under 2kms trying to kill as many enemies as possible before one team or the other finishes bombing the other into submission

In conclusion:

• Both approaches are shit
• Both approaches make the game less fun
• Both games could stand to learn a little from the other
• WT should remove bombers (WoWP gets this right, fuck bombers, they're the aerial equivalent of arty, much more so than GA in WoWP)
• ...and fix their game victory mechanics (WoWP gets this right, victory/loss mechanics are very clear and easy to understand)
• ...and give up on Sim/Real battle because the player pool for that shit is tiny and busy playing IL-2: Stalingrad anyway
• WoWP should expand it's altitude band ranges, maybe by a factor of 2.
• And implement Bandet's ideas about dispersion.
• WoWP GA should be made less cancerous by making it actually fun to fly above 400m altitude, encouraging GA to fight other plans rather than go for GTs.
• It would be nice if WoWP stole some stuff from WT's modular DM
• ...but it's not essential

 

Anyways, that's my feeling.

[hallo1994 603]

It will be essential, WG will copy WT bit by bit and I expected to happen. WG will make a desparate move.

 

 

All the money in the world cant buy you happiness.

[bandet 12]

It will be essential, WG will copy WT bit by bit and I expected to happen. WG will make a desparate move.

 

 

All the money in the world cant buy you happiness.

 

Because you have always been such an unbiased assessor of both WoWP and WT, amirite?

[Captain_F22ACE 77]

Because you have always been such an unbiased assessor of both WoWP and WT, amirite?

*Pulls out logs of Hallo's past posts, etc......*

 

Ok, now I'm ready to deal with the village fanboy.

[OnboardG1 1,279]

I can't say I'm hugely qualified to comment on the state of the meta, but I remember the upward dispersion making the energy fighters stupidly dominant over turn and burn fighters because even if you evaded the initial attack run all the energy fighter pilot had to do was go straight up and he'd be virtually invulnerable to fire. 

 

I miss WoWP from before they introduced alt bands. It was brilliant for about two beta patches, and then Persha ruined it all.

[Reuter 0]

It will be essential, WG will copy WT bit by bit and I expected to happen. 

 

This would require WG/Persha to copy WT's game engine first.

[bandet 12]

I can't say I'm hugely qualified to comment on the state of the meta, but I remember the upward dispersion making the energy fighters stupidly dominant over turn and burn fighters because even if you evaded the initial attack run all the energy fighter pilot had to do was go straight up and he'd be virtually invulnerable to fire. 

 

I miss WoWP from before they introduced alt bands. It was brilliant for about two beta patches, and then Persha ruined it all.

 

Well, the real problem with it was as I mentioned, it came in to effect too early. You would pitch up only 20 degrees and lose 50% of your damage.

 

Realistically, if you are chasing an energy fighter straight up, which is when the thing would come into full effect, you were doing it wrong to begin with.