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TalonV

New View ranges come 9.5 good or bad?

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The whole issue would be fixed if being behind a bush reduced your view range by the same amount it increased your camo factor. The 15 meter rule makes no real sense - if a bush is in front of your tank you shouldn't magically see through it as if your commander was 15 meters ahead of your tank or sitting on your gun barrel. 

 

15m Behind a Bush: 0 Spotting, Full Camo at all times

0-15m behind a Bush: -10%, -25% or -50% to view range depending on bush density, bush camo reduced upon firing as usual.

 

Basically, eliminate being able to sit behind a bush spotting tanks 400m away while being immune to detection until something closes to 100m.

 

Maybe, make it so that light tanks can still spot through bushes, but no other class can. Mediums, TDs, Heavies and Artillery should not be able to passive scout from behind a bush and still take advantage of additive camo and near light-level view range. 

 

It would probably cut down on camping - bush campers won't spot you until you can spot them (bushes work equally in both directions) and active scouting is required. TDs can still sit back and camo-snipe but need a spotter, while after killing the spotter heavies or mediums can root them out, as once the campers fire they will be SIGNIFICANTLY outspotted until their camo is restored.

 

It makes more sense then trying to make everything either a scout or blind.

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I'm all for the pattons to have their unique advantage over other mediums back. 

 

Though in typical WG fashion they'll probably nerf things to hard.

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Ok a point of order for this debate. I'm all for making lights viable,but when was the last time you saw a "good light driver" in a pub game? They are generally fucking retards that die in seconds! Do people seriously think all these light drivers will get good at lights because you give them better view range? That's laughable,you could give most of them 130mm guns and impenetrable armor and they'd still make a bollocks of it!

Bad players choose lights because they are fast,idk maybe they like fucking Mario cart or something,point is most of them have no clue how to use them,they like them because they are fast and ever 1 in 20 battles they survive long enough to kill an enemy arty..

Someone said a 3 man toon with their own personal scout is going to be very powerful now,the better players will know how to use the changes to there advantage. That's exactly what will happen,the team now with a toon of decent players with a light will wipe the floor with the rest.

On the EU server you nearly always come across the good players in toons,rarely do you meet them on their own.

I would be suprised if regular(shit) players will even notice the changes after 9.5. No those guys will still engage the warptard drive at the start of the game and speed off into the enemy to die within seconds only now they have left the entire team blind and with little choice but to camp...

Another good idea from WG but completely fail to take the skills of the player base into account..

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Always lovely when the bobs think, they understand this game best ... and then find kind words ("garbage") to express their perceived insights.

 

But I will give you the benefit of the doubt and try to explain why you are wrong:

  1. The primary issue with bush-camping TDs is not viewrange but how powerful the camo bonus from bushes is. In order to spot a Rheinmetal camping in a bush, you will often have to get within 100m or less with your scouts. And guess what: even after the massive viewrange nerfs for the Rheinmetal, he will still spot you first.
  2. And that is not a bad thing. If scouts could light TDs hidden behind bushes with little effort and no risk, the gameplay would be broken. TDs are supposed to be weapons of area-denial. They make sure that people who choose stupid routes on the battlefield get blasted. TDs pay a high price for this: usually no turret, sometimes slow, sometimes bad armour, ... Again: the guy sitting in the bush is not supposed to be spotted first!
  3. A good scout can work around this challenge: he will choose routes that limit his exposure, he knows bushes that allow him to get safe spots, he might even bait the TD to take a low-chance shot which will remove the cover from his bush. Only because you might have no clue how to scout effectively does not mean the developpers have to dumb the game down to your levels.
  4. Removing the TD class bonus (retaining camo after firing) was a good step. Nerfing viewrange is the wrong step since nobody wants invisible sniping. The way it's supposed to work is this: TD doesn't shoot - TD has a high chance to remain hidden; TD shoots - TD has a high chance to get spotted. Broken gameplay would look like the following: Scout spots TD at 350m, rapes him from the same distance without the TD having any chance of spotting him back.
  5. The "if" in your text: "if a TD has good LT on his team, he will still rape". How many good teammates do you usually get? Very few. Anything that makes players utterly dependant on teammates is a bad thing. It is not fun to have no chance at winning because the teammates who are supposed to perform a crucial task (spotting) happen to be donkeys (or are called FlakTrack). There is a lot wrong with high-tier gameplay but all tanks having decent viewranges is not one of them.

1stly thanks for all the abuse in that response asshole.

 

1 is wrong because turretless tds have to adjust position more often than not and then break camo numbnutz.

 

All the rest is basically saying lights should continue to have no real role in the game except to be mediums hardmode and that TD's should be able to do everything.

 

I really don't care if I get banned for this response but you are a moron.

 

14 day RO for being an idiot. - Solono

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1stly thanks for all the abuse in that response asshole.

 

1 is wrong because turretless tds have to adjust position more often than not and then break camo numbnutz.

 

All the rest is basically saying lights should continue to have no real role in the game except to be mediums hardmode and that TD's should be able to do everything.

 

I really don't care if I get banned for this response but you are a moron.

Firstly, thanks to whomever negrepped my new favourite wotlabs poster.

 

Secondly, FlakTrack, you are the one who started being impolite. When I respond in an equally rude manner, you flip out and start calling me names? GG.

 

Thirdly, your "arguments" are so bad it's not really worth responding. But since I believe this place is there to educate even your kind, I will take the time nevertheless:

 

My argument:

 

The primary issue with bush-camping TDs is not viewrange but how powerful the camo bonus from bushes is. In order to spot a Rheinmetal camping in a bush, you will often have to get within 100m or less with your scouts. And guess what: even after the massive viewrange nerfs for the Rheinmetal, he will still spot you first.

 

Your response:

1 is wrong because turretless tds have to adjust position more often than not and then break camo numbnutz.

That is not entirely true: Obviously, a camonet gets deactivated. Similarly your camo shifts from the values from standing still to that of a moving tank. BUT you still profit from the camo of the bush. In other words: a TD turning his hull behind a bush will lose some of his camo but the most powerful part (the bush) is still retained. Moreover, camping TDs usually won't turn unless they have spotted a target they can shoot (most likely FlakTrack trying to spot and about to get blasted). Last but not least, the example I am using is the Rheinmetal (an example that you introduced originally btw) - and that TD happens to have a turret.

 

As for lights having no role: I have made two the past month regarding that Lights have a role (vision if possible, but mostly as mobile damage dealers and flankers) - it is just not the role that was originally intended for them.

 

And now please go off and learn some manners, you desperately need them.

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And to move the real discussion forward:

 

I like what MaxL wrote. It would be an interesting gameplay solution. From the point of realism it is a bit weird, though (scissor scopes/raisable optics allow to spot out of a bush without having to reveal the tank commander or tank).

 

Personally, I still think that a firepower buff (possibly combined with a hp buff) for light tanks would be the better way to go.

 

My fear is that we might get a new meta that is even more broken than the current one. Slight viewrange adjustments might work - but like others said any changes more drastic than 10-20m from the current levels could create an ugly meta full of invisble snipers and hardcore campers.

 

Viewrange is not an area where WG should greatly differentiate tank classes. This could only work in an ideal game where all players are competent and perform the way, their roles require them to.

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Keep in mind that the final view range adjustments will probably be a lot less extreme. WG have said it a couple of times now since the super-test view ranges got leaked:

 

These are testing values that are purposely extreme in order enhance testing.

 

Basically, from a coding perspective, they're probably trying to binary search in order to find the best view ranges.

 

  1. Take vehicle X with view-range 400
  2. Reduce by 25%
  3. Test
  4. Results bad? Increase view-range to mid-point between new view-range and old view-range, go to 2
  5. Results good? DONE!

As it stands, there is room for some view-range tweaking but I highly doubt we'll see many of these extreme values come public release (Although I desperately hope that arty does got socked in the mouth down to 200m max for Tier 10 arty)

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Not sure why TD players would be so worried about view range nerfs anyway. Most of the time somebody is spotting for then anyway, so it should only be an issue for them in the late game.

That nerf to the T20 though...

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One thing that I didn't see mentioned was tank size.  Low flat pancake tanks should get good camo and bad View range, if they are tall tanks with high profile and large cuppolas they should have lower camo and good View ranges. Does this make sense to anyone?

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One thing that I didn't see mentioned was tank size. Low flat pancake tanks should get good camo and bad View range, if they are tall tanks with high profile and large cuppolas they should have lower camo and good View ranges. Does this make sense to anyone?

Makes sense to me. I still think open-topped tanks having a good view range makes a lot of sense though.

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Makes sense to me. I still think open-topped tanks having a good view range makes a lot of sense though.

 

That too as they get smoked by arty when hit.

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If everything is nerfed while lights are buffed, scouty maps will become hugely more campy when there are lights, since if you try to spot anything in something other than a light, everything will be aiming at you when the invisible light tanks spots you. (Yes, it's recursive. Camping will cause more camping.)

 

What scouty maps?

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Wow, I am stoked to see this upcoming change. I actually posted something similar to this long ago. The low tiers work exactly this way. If you want to see this mechanic currently working in the game, go to tier 1-7 or so. The view range mechanic begins to break at around tier 8+ when every tank gets 400+ for some insane reason. 

 

 

It should have always been, the bigger the gun (and more armor perhaps) the shittier the view range. This is a mechanic from every game you have ever played your entire life. Any good game at it's core relies upon a Rock/Paper/Scissor model. At tier 8+ WoT became Rock/Scissor/Scissor with Paper utterly fucked. Paper is back baby!!

 

 

I think someone said earlier but basically: Arty<TD<Heavy<Medium<Lights. Also follows the bigger then gun, worse the view range model. Obviously some blending depending on the tank. 

 

 

I might actually start enjoying tier 8+ matches again. 

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Yup especially Mediums who will get outspotted by Lights .... no one will want to move.  campfest.

 

Instead of fixing the OP TDs with super high alpha they just assrape all of them and hammer Mediums too.

 

Why not just give Lights 10 to 25 % more view range along with the proposed bush camo nerf that would balance things out much better.  Lights keep camo bonus on the move.  For the TD's to really take advantage of their VR the need to be static and employing binocs.

 

In my recent games since 9.4 the new TDs with the higher VR's has made running TD's far harder.  If it goes thru as is I'm selling them all.

 

All you have to do is ask yourself, which is the sole benefiting party when tank inventories churn? Who likes to see silver and gold spent as they arbitrarily buff and nerf tanks? Why, WG of course. Thus, working as intended, comrade. Also, have a nice view range BUFF to the IS3, because reasons. 

 

As the devs, say, if you don't like it, you don't have to stay. I just decline to spend more $. Fuck you, SerB.

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Platoons with a dedicated/personal scout will be a thing. 

 

And the gap between unicums and the rest is just going to widen. 

I'm ok with both these changes.

 

If you can't get JacG in your toon, look for Marduk10.... he is JacG lite.

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Are we now ranking light tankers in units of JacG?

 

"Approximately 0.9 JacGs".

 

I'm OK with that. 

 

Akin to the Helen being the unit of beauty-- as in one Helen is the amount of female beauty that will launch a thousand ships, and a milliHelen being the equivalent amount that will launch one ship.

 

One jacg=the amount of LT skill that will carry X number of matches.

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I'm OK with that. 

 

Akin to the Helen being the unit of beauty-- as in one Helen is the amount of female beauty that will launch a thousand ships, and a milliHelen being the equivalent amount that will launch one ship.

 

One jacg=the amount of LT skill that will carry X number of matches.

I am  a .5 JacG and 1 NanoHelen.

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IMO only TDs deserve the nerf. Everything else is fine as it is. But the fact that you are screwed because someones base camping on redshire in a roomba with binocs, and you cant push without dying is enough reason to nerf them

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(Although I desperately hope that arty does got socked in the mouth down to 200m max for Tier 10 arty)

 

Werd to this. Saw a teammate get blasted by an arty at point blank in a match couple nights ago from some absurd range before he got lit. It gets old.

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Honestly, battles on tiers 5-7 where vision ranges aren't that extreme (save for those battles when there are statpadders with binocs' TDs around of course :)) allow a lot more creativity and unrestrained movement. In TX, everyone sees everything. I don't think such a nerf is bad. The only thing that will suck = getting a 42% WR LT on an open map vs. a decent one. Auto lose right away.

 

But, for the rest of the maps, you will probably be able to move around more without getting blasted to pieces. Less systematic gameplay of going to the same spots every game because you're spotted and nuked everywhere else = good.

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